 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-02-18 03:14
OK, it's time for clarinets to all be made with some nice markings on the top of the bottom joint, perhaps alternating black and white stripes 1mm apart, visible if you leave a gap between the joints for tuning- so you can see you're doing the same amount as last time. Ditto on the top of the top joint for tuning with the barrel. I say this as I assemble my clarinet for the zillionth time and try to match how much gap I did the last time, does it look the same?
Yes, I will check with a tuner. But I bet dimes to donuts if the gaps were identical to last time, tuning would be dead on or very close to it.
Yes, I know they make tuning rings for this purpose. I used some for a month or 2 a couple years ago. Getting the right thicknesses was a pain. Keeping up with them (they fell out a lot) was a bigger pain. I glued one in place and grew mold under it... bleccchhhh.
Yes, I know there are tuning barrels with precision settings. I don't think I could drill them for my barrel mics, I suspect that would be like the guy who tried to put an electrical outlet in a wall containing a pocket door- "Look, there's a big piece of wood inside this wall!". And anyway, the barrel joint is only half the problem.
I'm sure all the clarinet makers in the world would happily adhere to a standard for tuning indicater marks. Maybe I need to create what I'm envisioning using a junker clarinet. Perhaps one of you skilled craftsmen with more time on your hands than me might try it.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-18 03:35
You find barrel adjustments and different length barrels not enough such that you're making between joint separations as well for intonation and wish clarinets had something similar to water level markings on a ship?
Would keeping a 6" ruler, with metric on one side, in your case, making a note of distances after you've optimized pitch tradeoffs, and then reproducing those distances next time be a decent surrogate--if in fact you believe that your section spacing is apt to produce similar results for similar spacings?
Maybe a fine white permanent marker could allow you to scribe a line in the bottom of the top joint, on the cork.
I play a lot with others where I adjust to their variabilities but I did once do this on the top of my upper joint, both ends of a barrel, and bottom of mouthpiece, as I have a pet peeve for the mouthpiece table being perfectly aligned with the back of the instrument, but never for intonation.
Still more, don't some manufacturers (selmer) put their c#/g# key holes on the tenon...making inter-joint adjustment tricky?
Post Edited (2015-02-18 03:56)
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2015-02-18 04:06
Nice concept- but small changes in room temperature mean that one must always set the tuning to the conditions of the moment. Even more variations occur if you play with more than one musical group. Markings on the joints might be a good start, but by no means the final answer.
Jerry
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-18 04:11
I agree Jerry. The op plays a hard rubber clarinet that maybe is I believe is less prone to ambient conditions affecting pitch???
A wood shim cut just to the point of the gapping might be good here too.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-02-18 04:20
Ah, pitch is a function of the temperature of the air in your horn. This is why tubas will play WAY sharp out in the sun on a hot Summer's day or WAY flat in 40 degree (fahrenheit) Fall temperatures. Yes, different materials will allow that temperature to increase or decrease faster or slower (the DEG aluminum barrel used this as a claim to superiority some years back because aluminum is a great conductor and warms up really fast) but the ambient temperature rules the day.
Also your pitch will be different with different mouthpieces (if you're into that sort of changing about that is).
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-02-18 05:07
For a while I used a dime to set the barrel gap- now that's too much, which I guess is good. Maybe a cheap set of feeler gages? Then keep the right 1 or combo of them ready?
I really do like the idea of the tuning barrels- dial in the pitch. Wiggling a cork tenon joint is SOOOO imprecise.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-02-18 05:49
There is that "high end" version of the "Click Barrel" made by some German manufacturer. It gets very hight marks from its users.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-18 08:48
Stan in Orlando, if you get a Rossi clarinet, this problem is, uh... not there ?
Their upper and lower joint is never separated and they are a uni-body. Of course you'd have to deal with your tuning barrel but you have one less thing to worry about.
As for messing with pulling out the barrel to adjust your pitch, I wonder how many people actually carry multiple barrels in variable length to address the tuning issues. I am not sure if it's my feeling but my son almost never squeaks except when the barrel is pulled out for tuning issues.
Post Edited (2015-02-18 08:54)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-02-18 12:46
Well, I suppose a clarinet could be made really one piece- barrel, mouthpiece, and all- and then you'd have no place to make adjustments. Then you'd be in the same boat as the pianist (on an acoustic piano)- gee, I hope I'm in tune, not much I can do about it anyway.
Do any of you actually try to find the perfect barrel that is in tune when flush against the upper joint? If so, do you never find yourself flat and with no place to push in? Or do you "always" have a shorter barrel available?
Do any of you play in situations where you have to "assemble and go", no real opportunity to tune, and setting the horn exactly where you had it the last time you played in that setting is the best choice? How do you do it?
And even if you tune up every time, do you assemble "flush" and then pull, every time? Or don't you, like me, try to eyeball the gaps like last time? And once in a while nail them?
I stand by the spirit of my original post- that there should be some kind of basic visual indication of the amount either junction is pulled, and that there exists a low-tech method that would achieve this. Ship stripes or not.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-02-18 13:03)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-02-18 14:57
Ok, I'll admit to having a visual reference. I kinda eyeball where things are for a basic good pitch, but then I tune to a reference pitch. There seems to be a day (yes I mean one actual day) when the seasons change and all of a sudden I am pulling out more to compensate for the suddenly sharper tuning of Summer (and vice versa going into Winter).
Trying to find a barrel length that gets you in tune pushed all the way in sounds like a losing proposition particularly if you play in an any sort of ensemble. Even playing with electronics all the time you face the vagaries of being in a cooler room (overly air-conditioned, not heated enough), or one that is far warmer than comfortable. Under these conditions your tuning will be considerably different and no ONE barrel will get you there.
The "gap" is your friend.........embrace it.
Or, get that expensive barrel that was linked above!
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-02-18 18:46
Paul, I'd love to have one of those click barrels. But the link did not show the price, just an invitation to inquire about price, and that's never a good sign... $19.95 I'm sure it's NOT (correct me if I'm wrong).
And I'm addicted to my barrel mics (see other threads), which require drilling a hole. I can't imagine that would work well on a tunable barrel, as I said in my o.p.. I suppose I could ask (again, somebody who knows these things correct me if I'm wrong).
And Dave, I will see what I can do with a white marker. What I'd really like to do is put the white where, if it shows, I've pulled too far. Now I'm imagining using a needle to reach in and "dot" the cork while in tune, so I can see where to mark it when it's disassembled. I'll let you know how it goes. I've got a few other irons in the fire now, it may take a while to get back to this issue.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-02-18 19:10)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-02-18 19:31
Question for those of you with the click or other tunable barrels. Once you've got it set "right", do you find you're pretty much good to go in later sessions? Or do you have to fine tune every time?
If the same click setting works for you session after session, that would validate my original premise that mostly all we need to do is replicate the gaps from last time, to be close to correct tuning.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-18 19:43
My son's old teacher used to always, always have my son pull the barrel out for the first 10 - 15 minutes into the lesson... than, at every lesson, he would ask my son to push in the barrel. The man also played beautiful piano and he would always have my son tune his clarinet to the piano so he could provide accompaniment during each lesson.
Although the man was a grumpy old man, I have to say that he was an excellent musician/clarinettist/pianist and I would have to say he knew what he was talking about. My son with perfect pitch ear never disagreed with him on tuning/pitch.
When the clarinet itself is cold (relatively speaking) they tend to play sharp...
I used to hold my son's clarinet to warm it up and keep the barrel under the arm pit to keep it warm before every lessons with that old man.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-18 20:02
yaseungkim:
With enormous respect for your right to be here and contribute, as the dad of a budding clarinetist, let me assure you, with humility and matter of factness, not condescension, that clarinetists who perform seriously, I'll say at the High School and above, often carry a range of (64-68mm for Bb) barrels with them to gigs so as to address tuning issues.
Stan/yaseungkim: Rossi's have shorter barrels made up for by a longer upper joints, to eliminate, according to Rossi at least, the affect that pulling out on a barrel has on the throat tones. http://www.rossiclarinet.com/ click features. I trust we can all agree, this feature not withstanding, that Rossi's are pricey.
Stan: you play Ridenour hard rubber, yes? I'm surprised to hear that tuning presents issue for you. Maybe it's your need to adjust to other instruments with less flexible tuning abilities. Frankly, I think your feeler gauges idea was superior to mine and others. I think we'd have to agree that sticking in the right size gauge, and pushing together the upper and lower joints is bound to be more accurate than that lack of defined granularity of pulling apart two tenons, held together by cork.
Still more, the most wonderful adjustable barrel in the world, as I think you realize from talks about tuning from guys like Ridenour, has its limitations on lowering pitch. Restated, it gets to a point where dropping pitch needs to stop happening at the barrel, and focus on seperating the joints, as you have, in order to not make too many compromises on all the notes of the instrument's range https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYx3pj0L790.
You asked if people ever have to assemble and go.
Instead, a quick anecdote. I sat in on a class with Indiana University's Band many years ago before "electric and indoor plumbing." Its director, after the band was tuned and warmed up, asked its members to arbitrary adjust their tuning sharp and flat on their instruments and prepare for the next number, which by the way was pretty darn well in tune.
As clarinetists we constantly make adjustments to notes by minute (MYNOOT) changes to the extent to which we snug the mouthpiece; more for sharp, less for flat. Even if we're playing alone, this is often necessary to achieve greater equality in our own musical temperament.
Stan, before spending coin, who are you out of key to (tuner, other players), how many cents so, and on what notes are you sharp and flat (and by how much)? While I think you know this, some intonation issues can be addressed by skilled clarinet repair/accousticians.
Working with a tuner, of course allow the note to settle before noting readings. We tend to all blow sharp the first instants a note is voiced.
Single and Double Joint Clarinets
For all the legitimacy of arguments that 2 jointed clarinest are easier to repair, tune, and store, once again, the all mighty dollar was what drove this decision.
Finding wood billets long enough to make a single joint clarinet, otherwise lacking in blemishes that could ruin the crafted piece is harder (more expensive) than finding ones to make a single joint.
As makers find the need to use wood derivative and non-wood materials to make clarinets in the future, it will be interesting to see whether they stick with the 2 joint paradigm.
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Author: William
Date: 2015-02-18 20:19
Different playing venues, ensembles and climates all affect "intonation" and the clarinetist must remain flexabile in order to be compatible as needed. That is why markings on 'where' to position your mouthpiece, barrel or bell would not insure being "in tune" with your fellow musicians. Good intonation requires good cooperation, not an "I'm right and you're not" attitude. It is far better to *play* in tune than to *be* in tune--think about that.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-18 20:22
whiteplainsdave: clarinetists who perform seriously, I'll say at the High School and above, often carry a range of (64-68mm for Bb) barrels with them to gigs so as to address tuning issues.
That's why I asked the question in the first place... why didn't you say so earlier in this thread
I was thinking the other day, why don't I buy a bunch of barrels of different length for my young lad so tuning might be easier for him. But then I thought, would this be a crazy idea??? Thanks for bringing closure to my thoughts from the other day.
Oh by the way, I did check this high school kid's clarinet bag two years ago, he was taking lessons with my son's old teacher. He did not have multiple range of barrels. But did have his A and Bb in the bag, they were both r13.
He got accepted to Peabody, if that says anything.
Post Edited (2015-02-18 20:25)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-02-18 20:50
Dave- my tuning issue is simply that I need to make sure I'm on concert pitch at the start of every (mostly daily) practice session, else I don't sound right with my backing tracks. Generally I'm good for the whole hour or so at that point.
I don't have much performance these days, though I've been working toward solo concerts for some years now. (Back about 1989-95 I did maybe 50? piano concerts in churches scattered over the South, of 8 to 10 songs each. That's a lot, and not a lot- 1 or 2 per month average though they tended to bunch up. Eventually I expect to resume something similar on clarinet. If not, it won't be because I wasn't prepared for it.)
When I do play one of my songs at my home church, the drill goes like this. I arrive about a half hr before service starts, assemble clarinet, run backstage to warm up briefly and tune to my iPhone app. Sound guys load up my track (actually video with lyrics and pretty pictures- same as my YouTube videos minus me and minus clarinet), I plug barrel mic cable into sound system, and run it- usually only once. On some occasions there's not even time for a complete run through, or I choose to stop after a few measures because too many people already in auditorium. I put clarinet on a stand, and go sit down at the Yamaha HX1 organ I also play. 20 or 30 minutes later (!) it's time for my clarinet solo. I get a chance to blow air for a few seconds, that's about it- then the track starts and I'm "on". I have to be in tune, and with no reed issues, etc etc. I've done this maybe 20 times now over past 4 years since restarting clarinet, only a couple of bad outings so to speak, though I'm plenty nervous at least until I get a few notes out.
Future performance outings at other churches I expect to be pretty similar, same limited warmup opportunity, same time delay before I play, same friendly and forgiving audiences. Added complications will be- after 3 or 4 songs I may need to change reeds (still looks like one reed can't reliably take 10 of my songs in a continuous single session- jury out on that question), and I'll be talking before and between songs- what do these lyrics mean? scripture references, and such (can I talk intelligently and swap reeds at the same time? I guess I'll find out the hard way).
Back to the original tuning issue- sure would be nice to start in a known good tuning position, and adjust as needed. Maybe sometimes it would be dead on. And other times I might not have a chance to check before playing anyway.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-18 20:59
I hear you're, "I was just asking," yaseungkim. And I entire respect your right to do this.
When I see you emerge on a thread I will try to be cognizant of not making the assumptions that such things are known. For what it's worth, I've chatted with all the other prior posters on this thread here enough, to be nearly certain that all the others knew this about barrels already, before your contribution into the thread, and that bringing it up would not only be unnecessary, but run the risk of appearing condescending to them in my discussion of the so called obvious.
I don't mean to split hairs, but I'm sure if I had read you say:
"Do many people actually carry multiple barrels in variable length to address the tuning issues?"
Versus:
"I wonder how many people actually carry multiple barrels in variable length to address the tuning issues."
I would have seen things in a different context.
This is not a grammar lesson. Rather its acknowledgement that both sides of the communication model have jobs, and I acknowledge shortcomings in mine here, with apology.
"Oh by the way, I did check this high school kid's clarinet bag two years ago, he was taking lessons with my son's old teacher. He did not have multiple range of barrels. But did have his A and Bb in the bag, they were both r13.
He got accepted to Peabody, if that says anything."
In my humble opinion, zero conclusions can be made from the one time observation of a clarinet case and its contents. For argument sake what you saw could be the extent of his inventory. As I said, top clarinetists often, but not always, carry different length barrels with them. So many factors unknown play into the scenario here, including the player's ability to spend the money for a full range of top notch barrels of different lengths, that no correlation can accurately be made between proficiency and barrel collection.
Post Edited (2015-02-18 21:09)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-18 21:08
"When I do play one of my songs at my home church, the drill goes like this. I arrive about a half hr before service starts, assemble clarinet, run backstage to warm up briefly and tune to my iPhone app."
Pardon the obvious question, but are your backtracks consistent with your tuner?
"I plug barrel mic cable into sound system, and run it- usually only once. "
And are you in tune then for the most part? If so, if my memory is correct, you play a Ridenour hard rubber, correct? Is it that affected a lot by ambient conditions? I don't find mine to be.
Sounds almost as if you need one of those electric clarinet cases (it came up on another thread recently--Mr. Blumberg I want to guess provided or knows the link) that keeps the clarinet ready to play, but again, I think those otherwise quite expensive bags are for the wood market.
Still more to point, your issues are with being too sharp, not too flat, right????
(I'm thinking cold church...but that assumption could of course be wrong.)
Post Edited (2015-02-18 21:12)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-02-18 21:35
These days, if I start with open G4 ![[G4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/g4.gif) tuned to my Yamaha YT-3000 old school tuner (at home) or iPhone tuner (at church) by adjustment of barrel gap, and clarion G5 ![[G5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/g5.gif) further tuned by adjustment of middle joint gap- then I am good (to my ear) for the duration. Perhaps that's because I'm close enough to unconsciously lip notes, especially sustained ones, onto pitch.
(I think I'm following Tom Ridenour's tuning instructions, or I'm pretty close to them.)
At home and at church, temperature and humidity are usually pretty well under control. One day I'll be asked to play under tougher climate conditions, and I imagine I'll need to take other measures, no pun intended.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-02-18 21:36)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-02-18 21:45
I have worked for most of my engineering career for Ansys Inc- whose founder John Swanson said "I got into computing so that- once I did something, it stayed done."
I would prefer that, once I tuned a clarinet, it stayed tuned until something changed that required a retuning. I don't like the fact that disassembling and reassembling loses the prior settings. For a time I looked into cases (readily available on eBay) that will hold an assembled clarinet. I liked the idea of arriving at church (my own or a "strange" one) all set to go. And for a time I left my assembled clarinet inside a cabinet every day, just to save myself the 5-10 min per day of disassembly/reassembly. But as I watched the ugly white stains (mold?) develop where the junctions were remaining wet, and as I read here on BBoard how bad an idea this is (unless it's a one piece clarinet!)- I reverted to the conventional approach. Too bad.
Again- what I want is a quick way to put the clarinet back like I had it the last time I was playing, with no fuss. Then, I can check tuning and have a decent shot at already being OK or only needing a minor shift. Not, I think, an unreasonable request. Does your iPhone revert to factory settings every morning? If so, you need to go Android.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-02-18 21:49
First tiny correction: Cold = FLAT; Warm = SHARP
It's physics. Hotter air molecules move faster (and need more space). That's why we have hot air balloons instead of cold air balloons.
I like the idea of tuning to the "Gs." Just remember those are "easy," mid-effort embouchure notes. You need to have room above and below to make necessary adjustments as you go along in different registers at different dynamics.
I am in a situation where concert Bb is considered a standard and everyone tunes to their one favorite Bb. I take the opportunity to play a full Bb concert chord throughout the clarinet's registers. That way I have a better shot of being fully in tune.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-18 23:21
Whiteplainsdave: In my humble opinion, zero conclusions can be made from the one time observation of a clarinet case and its contents. For argument sake what you saw could be the extent of his inventory. As I said, top clarinetists often, but not always, carry different length barrels with them. So many factors unknown play into the scenario here, including the player's ability to spend the money for a full range of top notch barrels of different lengths, that no correlation can accurately be made between proficiency and barrel collection.
There's no disagreement in what you've said. But, I always say to my son, you play your instrument in front of your teacher as if you are playing in front of 1000 people... you should always treat your teacher with highest respect, and you ask for his/her approval of your week's practice as though that was your last recital in front of a capacity crowd.
Having said that, I always have my son do all preparation for his lessons as though that was his recital, so, I would expect him to have all his best equipment prepared and brought to each lesson. What a waste of money it would be if you play with your second best effort in front of your teacher where he/she could not give you an opinion of your best effort because you brought your half *aced* effort.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-18 23:29
Paul: First tiny correction: Cold = FLAT; Warm = SHARP
Sir, I realize you may be motivated by the desire to truly educate, not pontificate or condescend, but the science you raise, I can't help but conclude by reading the thread, was never in contention.
The op reported a condition of sharpness (his need to pull out at not only the barrel, but between joints) that he later reported experiencing in a church setting: which is sometimes, but clearly not always, and othewise confirmed by the OP to not to be his case: one where old beautiful buildings, where many (but cetainly not all) churches reside, don't always have the best (retrofitted modern) heating: a situation consistent, as you know, with pitch flatness.
Of course the architecture of religious establishments (including Synagogues and Mosques) can and do vary, and on that alone, I can't imagine any of us disagreeing, or taking issue with decor not being synonymous with piety; but I wildly digress.
Stan: as any owner of a any Pochette case that necessitates keeping the bell and lower joint together will tell you, you want to seperate those joints as much as possible in the instrument case, and regularly dismember and grease these sections.
"I would prefer that, once I tuned a clarinet, it stayed tuned until something changed that required a retuning."
Might I suggest this being a contradiction in terms. It wouldn't then be a clarinet, at least as we know it in its current shape and form.
"I don't like the fact that disassembling and reassembling loses the prior settings."
Is it possible you're giving construction and destruction too much of the negative credit when our reeds and human abilities and ambient weather, to mention only three, vary as well? And even when you've optimized tuning (notice I didn't say reach perfect tuning: there is no such thing on clarinet) don't you still have to face less than perfect musical temperament between notes?
I'm willing to say that if you feel you've optimized pitch on day 1, and found the perfect feeler gauges to record distance between joints (many of these gauges meaure less than 1/1000": maybe less than a wood clarinet may change shape in a 24 hour period,) and then reproduced that on day 2, but you are not in pitch, that the things causing that aren't your ability to put the instrument's pieces back together correctly and consistent with your prior session.
Perhaps the term "make peace with imperfection" applies no better than to clarinets.
Post Edited (2015-02-18 23:47)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-02-18 23:43
I use old Buffet made tuning rings for consistency and to prevent water from collecting in the joint gap and gurgling around. I also had some made for my center joint, as well ... but can't seem to locate them ...
If the tuning rings are made of a rubbery material, would that act as a better gasket or seal between joints and have some advantages?
It seems that the impedance bump in a pulled joint might be a problem ... so the tuning rings might have a real acoustical advantage. I read one dissertation on Buffets that claimed the gap in a pulled joint actually wasn't a bad thing ... self correcting in some way.
Does anyone pull at the very top joint, between the MP and top of barrel? If not, why not design a one piece mouthpiece/barrel combination? One less corked joint to worry about, and the MP and barrel could vibrate as one chunk, with no decoupling between pieces facilitated by the compliance of the cork ...
More bad ideas, anyone? Or ... does this make a little sense?
Tom
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-18 23:52
I think Tom that too many people are pationate enough about their barrels, not to mention their practical use for tuning, that making a mouthpiece barrel combination that can't be seperated might fair not much better than designing a wood mouthpiece with "the reed" just crafted right into the mouthpiece," no ligature needed.
Restated, our desire for autonomy with respect to reed, mouthpiece and barrel choices might be compromised by the integration of any of these components.
If you were being tongue-in-cheek, I missed that and am sorry.
Post Edited (2015-02-18 23:53)
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-18 23:59
Like I said earlier, I almost never hear my son squeak when the barrel is pushed all the way in, but I hear him squeak while it is pulled out for tuning issues. Maybe it's my perception. Also, when you read Rossi website, they talk about all the advantages of not having the seam between joints. I wonder if someone did an objective scientific study on acoustical analysis for this.
Lastly, I wonder how practical it would be to fuze MP to your barrel and sell it as one piece. Most MP are plastic, and your barrel is wood. So, either this contraption would have to be of wood or plastic. After reading rave review on Moba barrel, I wonder if any elite pro would use such thing if it is not made of wood. With that said, how many people play a wooden MP, just wondering.
Like Dave says, if you are being sarcastic, I missed it.
Post Edited (2015-02-19 00:04)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-02-19 00:32
I WAS truly serious about a one-piece, probably hard-rubber MP-barrel combination ... could be all hard rubber or plastic or wood ...
Just wait, someone will make this, if they haven't already ...!
Just makes sense that eliminating joints might have it's advantages ...
Why stop there? Lets make the entire clarinet in just TWO pieces ... the clarinet body with integral bell (that would be a thick billet of Blackwood to turn down!) and the MP-barrel combo ... now that's the stuff! Who will be the 1st to prototype such a clarinet?
If we could build the instrument made with self-compensating material, that would have a correspondingly complementary coefficient of expansion, now that would be neat ... of course, the keys and such would have to expand/contract also ...
Yeah, removing the center joint lets the C#/G# tone hole be in a better spot, but arguably eliminates the flexibility of another tuning pull possibility ...
I am all for experimentation ... more new designs that might go the way of the Elcassette and Ionic Tweeter ... or maybe stick, like electric power assist steering.
I seem sarcastic at times ... it just comes out naturally! My posts are a mix of seriousness and fun ... and it's hard to tell the difference, sometimes even by me.
Tom
Post Edited (2015-02-19 00:38)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-19 01:04
(Okay, count to 10, be patient with other people's opinions).....
OK. Tom: people change mouthpieces and barrels more frequently than clarinets. Should that someday change, perhaps someone will market just such a setup--presuming you are leaving tuning capabilities at the barrel upper joint interface, as we will still have to play in tune with other instruments (William, seriously, thank you for this point.)
As I also pointed out, others have pointed to the limits (please read threads if possible) of tuning at the barrel alone. If you have to really flatten, most in the know will tell you that some of this pitch reduction has to be shared at the upper and lower joint position, which I guess 99.8% of clarinets are able to do. Not doing so can affect the notes closer to the barrel (read: throat tones) more than the ones distanced, and musical temperament can be compromised more than that already inherent to clarinets in their design.
Chris P: I need backup! Tell the masses how you've reported it to be at times much more challenging to repair a clarinet with the joints connected.
But this not withstanding, while connecting the upper and lower joints (and just those) might have its advantages, say for example in better coupling between the left and right hand keys, better placement of the G#/C#, while still maintaining two joints has already been done by people like Selmer, who have put the tone hole on some of their models on the upper joint's tenon and the top of their lower joint, to line up..which yes, makes between joint tuning something I'd like to hear from Selmer owners on. I want to say that the hole on the tenon is larger than the one on the top of the lower joint, allowing for distance adjustment between the joints, but I haven't seen this in person.
"If we could build the instrument made with self-compensating material, that would have a correspondingly complementary coefficient of expansion, now that would be neat ... of course, the keys and such would have to expand/contract also ..."
This is satire requiring no response, correct? Or I have I just been unintentionally insulting?
"I seem sarcastic at times ... it just comes out naturally! My posts are a mix of seriousness and fun ... and it's hard to tell the difference, sometimes even by me."
Great, but maybe consider the use of emoticons here so people aren't trying to legitimately respond to pipe dreams. Just a thought.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-19 02:33
Dave, "If we could build the instrument made with self-compensating material, that would have a correspondingly complementary coefficient of expansion, now that would be neat ... of course, the keys and such would have to expand/contract also ..."
This is satire requiring no response, correct? Or I have I just been unintentionally insulting?"
-----------
Yes, I think you are insulting people with science/physics background.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-02-19 03:00
Well ... I don't mean to be insulting, it was really mostly tongue in cheek ... sorry! I did launch some slightly pseudo-scientific jargon to suggest such an idea.
But we can understand how a material might be made that could offset the tendency for an instrument to become sharp as temperature increased. Apparently wood actually expands with an increase in temperature (which is actually moving in the correct direction) but it is not enough to compensate for the real reason the pitch increases with increasing temperature ... but, the keys and everything else would have to expand (and shrink) as well ... maybe in the 22nd century!
Also, as to the one piece barrel/MP assembly, I think it would be interesting, but now you would not only have to specify the type of MP, but the taper and bore of the barrel as well. That probably means that they would all be custom made or you would have an boatload of different products to satisfy each persons whim.
Don't want to make enemies here. I'm just throwing some thoughts out there for discussion that may be valid and/or silly, and often mixed together in one post.
Oh, BTW ... there are expensive trumpets that have the MP attached permanently as part of the instrument! No lead pipe to put your Bach 7C mouthpiece in ...
Once again, global apologies for all that I've unintentionally insulted or irked.
Tom
Post Edited (2015-02-19 03:15)
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-02-19 04:23
"Clarinetists who perform seriously, I'll say at the High School and above, often carry a range of (64-68mm for Bb) barrels with them to gigs so as to address tuning issues."
Not necessarily true - my teacher has a few different barrels at home, but as far as I'm aware she only uses one barrel each for her A, Bb, and Eb clarinets at concerts and just adjusts by pulling out (and maybe occasionally using a tuning ring.) The trick is that you want a barrel that will play in tune or slightly sharp when pushed in all the way, so you have some flexibility to pull out as you warm up.
I know of another professional clarinetist in the area who has a collection of some 50-to-60-something barrels, though.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-02-19 04:32
I guess I will revisit tuning rings- "real" ones or surrogates from Ace Hardware. Dave, I see you started another discussion on those. My previous experience with rings was not fun as I said in my o.p.- yet another item that needs attention on assembly / disassembly since they can't be attached (right?). But on balance I think they probably are the best solution for what I want.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2015-02-19 05:10
Stan - maybe you could change your instrument case so that you could leave the joints & barrel assembled when you put them away. The next time you played, they'd be pulled the same amount. Unfortunately, I'm not now envisaging a design for such a case, but it is likely doable. Maybe similar to a Rossi case but adjustable in length at the pertaining points.
Ha, that would transfer the length adjustment out of the clarinet and into the case.
I looked for a site with a price for those nifty Paulus & Schuler Zoom barrels linked above. http://www.thomann.de/gb/paulusschuler_gbr_zoom_bklarinettenbirne_55mm.htm has them for 170.90 pounds, or $263.80. I will, ah, defer this purchase.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-02-19 05:25
wow. Now I wonder how I get my reed on my mouthpiece without some kind of guide or ruler to guarantee consistent results.
Now all this thread is about some new form of OCD, don't you think?
I may not be accurate in visually pulling out my barrel by exactly 1.23 mm. But I can hear if I'm not in tune with my section. Now what's more important?
--
Ben
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-19 08:06
Ben, pardon me for never having played in an orchestra, but is it right to be in tune with your section or to be in tune with your concert master?
So, who is the ultimate authority that everyone must be in tune with.... All the clarinet soloists I've seen appeared to approach that guy with the fiddle and checks the pitch, but that's the soloist. I would never know what that clarinet section members do.
Post Edited (2015-02-19 08:15)
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-02-19 08:24
I believe it's best to be in tune with the rest of the woodwind section. Ideally your section should be in tune with the concertmaster too, but if it's a choice between one and the other, I think it's the section.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-02-19 11:40
In my experience, it's better to be in tune with those physically closest to you.
Ideally, everyone uses the concert master (or whomever) as the common reference point, of course.
--
Ben
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Author: Jamnik
Date: 2015-02-19 11:48
Wood and hard rubber clarinets change tuning with temperature and different horns react differently to these changes. The real trick is keeping your horn warm (playing temperature) during a long break between playing when the temperature is too cool or warm. It's always best to tune with the percussion bells!
Jamnik
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