 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-02-14 21:16
Hi All,
As I have mentioned in posts before, I have really gotten serious about playing bass clarinet after decades as a sax and clarinet player. With that adventure I have encountered several quite unique attributes of the instrument which I would lump into a category something like "Nature of the Beast."
Sure, it's bigger, heavier, often going out of adjustment, etc. but I have found that tuning and intonation issues that one faces all too often quite fascinating. I know ESP has commented several times on some of these type issues and others have added. But what notes (like the lower clarion register) seem to be quite sharp/flat over the 12h below? And what about the long B and low Eb!
I've experimented with the O ring in the middle tenon and "messed around" with key height adjustments in the throat region with some measure of success. But I have much to learn.
Any wisdom you care to share is appreciated!
HRL
PS When a note is out of tune, how many cents +/- are we talking about?
Post Edited (2015-02-14 22:31)
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2015-02-14 22:25
Interesting, my low notes are in good tune except for C#3 which is quite sharp. In most respects the base is better in tune then my soprano clarinets. I also find D5 and E5 to be quite resistive but in tune. Any minute leaks will cause a lot of problems with those notes.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-02-15 01:52
the only whacky note on my Bundy was throat A which was extremely sharp until I fixed that with a cork crescent insert. (my other basses do not suffer from this phenomenon)
Never had any issues with things measurably out of tune.
BUT: With bass, you're "harmony" most of the time. No matter how well in tune your own instrument is, DO USE YOUR EARS and be prepared to lip up and down every note in order to play well with the soloist (or whoever has that melody line).
--
Ben
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-02-15 03:38
"When a note is out of tune, how many cents +/- are we talking about?"
My experience is that there is a factor 2 between soprano and bass clarinets.
If a good soprano has 8 cents twelfths, a good bass will have 16.
A bad soprano with 20 cents twelfths might be playable but not an equally bad bass.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-02-15 04:59
Johan,
Thanks for an interesting observation.
The key question for me is I have a conductor with supposed perfect pitch BTW; he is relentless with all the clarinet section about "you are not in tune on these notes. Fix it."
He is not a woodwind player.
Hank
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2015-02-15 06:03
Try searching this bboard for previous posts on this. I think it was mentioned before that there are 'classic' intonation problems with some lower chalemeau and some lower altissimo and upper throat tones on many BCl.
Hank, it sound like you are working too hard, though, and it may be a good time to look at another instrument.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-02-15 19:12
BflatNH,
Thanks for the advice. Yes, working too hard now. When over the past several decades I have been blessed by having some tremendous Selmer, LeBlanc, and Yamaha saxes and clarinets to play.
Let me look again for the intonation info you suggest.
HRL
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-02-15 20:49
> The key question for me is I have a conductor with supposed perfect pitch
> BTW; he is relentless with all the clarinet section about "you are not in tune
> on these notes. Fix it."
To me, he says "you're not in tune WITH EACH OTHER on these notes. Fix it".
I've sat in many bands where the director would approach every player with a tuner, let tune, and then completely forgets about it, as everyone is magically and naturally in tune for the next two hours, no matter what. Yeah.
--
Ben
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2015-02-16 19:00
Dr. Hank, I have several bass clarinets that play very well in tune everywhere, every note. Like BflatNH wrote, you may need a better axe.
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Author: William
Date: 2015-02-16 21:07
To echo David, I have only one bass clarinet, but I guess I am lucky that it is a good one and pretty well "in tune". Only the middle B & C's are a bit sharp and easy to lip down when necessary. So perhaps it is, "your axe" and not you.
FWIW, I try to avoid playing with an overly tight embouchure on bass which I think gives me tonal a pitch flexability, although I try to keep my chops as steady as possible--just not ridged. More like a tenor embouchure, I guess. I also play with the mouthpiece more "straight-in" than angled downward as on Bb clarinet--helps the high register speak as well.
btw, my bass clarinet is a Buffet Prestige 1191-2 low C instrument, purchased from Lisa's old Musical Suppliers superstore in Des Plaines, Ill. She had 7 for me to chose from--Larry Combs picked one as well.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-02-17 18:22
Hi All,
This is great input and I believe that you are correct, I do need a better bass clarinet.
History: I have extracted what I can from my old TR 147 and King Margeaux bass. Each has its own idiosyncrasies which I have tried to work around as best as I can. As a doubler, I do use the required "more relaxed" tenor sax embouchure but there are still some low clarion notes that are really difficult to get in tune. It is the instrument!
A Lament: Too bad that there is not a shop where I could try 7 bass clarinets. I'm hard pressed to find even one around my location. Sure various techs have a bass or two for sale but these are usually in various stages of repair and/or very uneven in features. This is a real shot in the dark; I prefer better odds.
A Solution: I need to figure out a strategy to first find some bass clarinets to try. Then go there or have selected instruments sent to me.
It is time for me to do some pondering,
Best,
HRL
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2015-02-17 21:06
There is no such thing as a perfectly in tune bass clarinet, only players that play well in tune. With that said, some are much better and some much worse than others. And don't forget, the lowest notes are very forgiving. My experience is that if you can get to play the throat notes and the break notes pretty well in tune your OK to go. That doesn't mean perfect, you may still have to make some small adjustments as you play.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-02-17 21:29
ESP,
I have a very good ear, I listen to my blend in pitch and quality in comparison to the rest of the ensemble, and am well versed in alternate fingerings. It does all boil down to the throat notes and the break. I've got the 1st part well under control but the break notes on one of my bass clarinets are really out.
If I could but combine both of my instruments into one, it would be excellent. Both have different issues as well as strengths. "To dream the impossible dream..."
Hank
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