 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Zacharywest158
Date: 2015-01-26 07:27
Hello all,
I have a glaring intonation issue with my Buffet R13 Bb, serial number 534xxx. The instrument plays well in tune, except for B3 and C3, which are very, very flat. E2 and F2 are each a shade flat, but not nearly as much so as the twelfths above. Interestingly, when I go up higher, into the altissimo register, the instrument plays in tune once again. I don't suffer from this problem on my A clarinet, which dates from the mid 1970's. My Bb has been professional set up, and everything is up to snuff. Why on Earth am I having this issue?
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-01-26 08:54
May be the mouthpiece needs to be checked out. Sounds like a pitch issue from there. I know exactly what you're talking about, and experienced it with my M13, especially as it aged.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-26 17:03
I'm not so good with the number system.
If you are referring to the "C" that is the second ledger above the staff, then I have had the same problem with "flat" custom mouthpieces most notably the Gennusa Excellente. There has been (is it fading?) a tendency to give us what we presumably want, a 'dark' sound, by making pitch LOWER. You do this by increasing the volume of the tone chamber. However, it also lowers the INTERNAL pitch of your horn so much that you have pitch issues that cannot be fixed any other way than replacing the mouthpiece.
If you are using a Vandoren 13 Series, the solution is to move to a NON 13 Series mouthpiece.
Oh, and if the "E" and "F" you refer to are the throat notes you CAN raise those by adding the lowest sidekey.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-01-26 17:05
Did this just start and what MP are you using? Is this a new R13?
Tom
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-01-26 17:59
I personally treat venting the thumb F and thumb/forefinger E with the sidekeys a must on almost every standard R13 I've ever played. Hate those notes, and cause of those notes, I just stay away from the r13s. I think the festival and tosca tune much better.
Have you tried a shorter barrel? A shorter barrel would bring those pitches up a bit. You might need to shade the rest of the throat tones more to bring those pitches down, and maybe pull out the middle joint a little. But it might help.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-01-26 18:00
Zacharywest158 wrote:
> The instrument plays well in tune, except for B3
> and C3, which are very, very flat. E2 and F2 are each a shade
> flat, but not nearly as much so as the twelfths above.
Check the graphic next to the page heading "The Clarinet BBoard" for the key to the octave numbers.
I'm going to assume you mean B4 and C5 (the long B and C fingerings) since you couple them with upper twelfths E and F (I'll assume E3 and F3).
The mouthpiece and barrel will have their greatest effect at the top of the clarinet - the throat notes. So, if you opt for a sharper mouthpiece you will bring the entire instrument up, the throat tones and upper section more than the lower section, of which those long fingerings are the last.
Low E3 and F3 are slightly flat on most Boehm clarinets. If their twelfths are in tune, all is well, or at least normal. If the upper twelfths are flatter than the low notes, my knee-jerk suspicion, without being able to hear or see how you play, is that either your register tube is partially blocked or your bell has gone out of spec. A bell can affect the pitch of the long fingerings without having much effect on the rest of the clarinet, but it would affect E and F as well as B and C. Just as Paul describes with mouthpieces (and barrels), increasing the internal volume of the bell will lower the pitch of the longest fingerings (E3-F3-B4-C5).
My suggestion would be to clean out the register tube. If that doesn't improve things, try adding a little tape at the top of the bell or some bluetac to slightly reduce the volume of air in the bell. You can try both of these with no cash outlay and the tape or bluetac are completely removable if they cause unwanted effects.
If neither of these helps, you can certainly try mouthpieces, but I'd still expect a bell to have more influence over this problem and a mouthpiece to change much more than you're trying to correct. There are nearly as many after-market bells available as mouthpieces, if you want a more permanent fix than bluetac or tape.
Karl
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2015-01-26 18:03
Good suggestions, everyone.
I have an older R13 from the early 70s, a nice clarinet, but one with some intonation issues. It does play a bit better in tune after it has been warmed up for a while.
Reed selection can make a difference. I've noticed an intonation improvement after switching to Gonzalez GDs. If you like your mouthpiece, it might be worth experimenting with several reed types and strengths.
Another thing to consider--this goes along with Karl's suggestion about the bell--is your R13's bore. Did you always have these intonation issues, or are they more recent? It's possible that the bore has shrunk, not an uncommon problem on wood clarinets. Was this checked when your clarinet was last repaired?
Post Edited (2015-01-26 18:13)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-26 18:11
Zachary:
Just so we're clear (and this is important) when you say B3 you mean this note correct ![[B3]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/b3.gif) ?
If so, as far as your E3 and F3 being flat....sigh...welcome to the club. This is typical of most clarinets, R13's being no exception. It's part of the reason that Buffet and Backun have levers to adjust the pitch of these notes in their high end clarinets, and why Tom Ridenour claims that correctly designing the clarinet in the first place makes just such levers "less than mandatory."
You are describing a condition that hand uncutting of the tone holes corresponding to the flat notes MAY be able to address.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSf2ng2ZEq8
Were these notes sharp, undercutting would, as I understand it, be contra-indicated, or at the very best, not useful. It's only if these notes are flat, that undercutting the tone holes MIGHT raise their pitch, without affecting the same fingering notes that voice when the register key is actuated.
By all means first play with some of the variables that contributors have described above. If you still have no luck in addressing this, consider taking your instrument to a repair tech that is HIGHLY FAMILIAR WITH undercutting, or fraising, (French for strawberry I believe, as named after the tool used to do this work, and its resemblance to a strawberry.)
Done wrong, this work will permanently screw with your instrument, until an even better repair tech adds material to the tone holes.
Good luck
Post Edited (2015-01-26 18:14)
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Author: Zacharywest158
Date: 2015-01-26 19:14
Hi all,
I greatly appreciate the advice! I apologize for not being clear, the B and C I am referring to are one ledger line above the staff.
My R13 is a very beautiful horn that was made in 2005. I purchased it in 2013, but it had never been played before. The instrument didn't have this problem when I bought it. At that time, I was playing on a relatively new M13 lyre profile 88 with the stock 66 millimeter barrel.
The problem began when I came back to school this semester. I switched mouthpieces to a B40 lyre profile 88, but it didn't fix the issue. I switched to a shorter barrel, a moennig 65 millimeter, that corrected the pitch on the twelveths below, but not the b and c.
I asked a colleague of mine to try my clarinet, without prefacing any intonation issues, and all he said was that he liked it even better than his tosca!
Needless to say, this is driving me crazy. Could it be an issue with my voicing? If so, why am I not flat when I go higher into the altissimo? I ordered a D'addario reserve mouthpiece this morning to see if it will correct the pitch.
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Author: Zacharywest158
Date: 2015-01-26 19:20
Oops, forgot to mention that I use D'addario reserve 3.5 reeds. The B40 lyre that I am currently using isn't new, either. I used to play it before I switched to the M13 lyre.
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-01-26 19:34
If the B40 is non-13 series, than it sounds like a register tube problem.
However, I would recommend trying the Reserve mouthpieces, which are neither 440 or 442. Being that they are tuned to 441, it gives a great middle of the road approach. It slightly raises those flat E and F notes in the short pipe, and evens the scale out nicely. If you like the B40 Lyre, the X10 would be a good start.
But, I agree with KDK on the register tube issue.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-01-26 21:34
If you're talking about throat E-F and top-of-the-clarion (above the staff) B-C, then, of course, it's a whole different problem from the one I reacted to before. You still need to be wary of trying to solve this with a mouthpiece if the throat notes F# - Bb are not also flat.
You may still benefit from cleaning out the register vent. It will only affect the upper notes, but those seem to be the more severe ones, according to what you wrote. In addition, check the tone hole just under the LH 1st finger (the one covered by the pad between the 1st and 2nd fingers) for dirt or, perhaps, tape placed there by a previous owner to solve a problem with sharpness in those same notes.
B5 and C6 are often sharp on Boehm clarinets, especially, I think, early R-13 and pre-R13 Buffets. As I remember it, it was one of the problems they tried to solve with the reverse-tapered barrel design and the poly-cylindrical clarinet So reading that yours are noticeably flat suggests that either some opening has become occluded or something in the bore of the upper section has changed.
Again, you can certainly experiment with mouthpieces or barrels, but I don't think either will bring your flat notes up without making the rest of the throat register (and maybe more than that) sharp. If you can't find a quick fix in a plugged tone hole, you may be better off just learning to sharpen those notes by opening extra keys rather than open a Pandora's box of equipment changes that may unintentionally just shift the problem elsewhere.
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-01-26 21:40
I forgot to say that you could consider having a repairman undercut the hole I mentioned a little if you find nothing else to explain the flatness. That hole will not affect anything else (except maybe throat F#4. )It will affect both registers, so you'd need to decide where you want to compromise between them.
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-26 23:17
Zac:
I believe you appreciate that my prior advice was based on B3 problems, and that as a result of the fact that you appear to be referring to B5 ![[B5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/b5.gif) that my suggestions are seeking to correct a problem you don't have, and should be ignored.
Since snugging up on a mouthpiece will raise pitch, are you taking in as much mouthpiece as you can short of squeaking on notes? This is a good thing to try to do even as a general rule, intonation not withstanding.
By the way, how many acoustical cents flat are we talking?
An M13 Lyre to a B40? Same reed strength? That's a big tip opening change. What's the story behing that?
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Author: Zacharywest158
Date: 2015-01-26 23:38
Hi all,
I cleaned out the register tube, and the instrument went from being about 20 cents flat up there to being 5 cents flat. Woohoo! I think the rest of the intonation issues are from the low pitch of the mouthpiece, which is, to clarify, a B40 lyre series 13 profile 88. Since cleaning the register tube, some other minor intonation issues have also been helped. I think a higher pitched mouthpiece should take care of it now.
I switched from using strength 4.25 reeds on the M13 lyre to 3.5 on the B40 lyre. My teacher pointed out that I was biting, and suggested using thinner reeds to stop myself from biting. I found that the thinner reeds work much better on the B40 lyre, hence the switch.
I ordered the D'Addario reserve X10 mouthpiece, so I'll let you all know how that works out.
I'm off to rehearse Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade and Ruggles's Sun Treader. Wish me luck!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-27 01:11
Another good thing to try out is a few minutes of playing 'double lip' embouchure.
This will give you a better sense of how YOU control the reed with your lips (and cheek muscles). Also it will be self evident in just a few minutes if you bite. It will feel as if your upper lip will begin to protrude through your upper lip.
Get that NON 13 series mouthpiece !!!!! You'll never go back.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-01-27 01:14
Not if you actually want to play down to pitch. . Nobody wants to pull out that much.
The mouthpiece may have been worn out due to swabbing it too much. This would gradually erode the existing bore, and therefore lower the pitch. If you get non-13 series, you would need a longer barrel or tuning rings to get down to 440. Most Vandoren models were designed in part by Buffet players, so it's pretty clear what would happen if you went to the same model in 442.
Post Edited (2015-01-27 04:37)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-01-27 05:38
I'd borrow another or maybe two R13s and compare them side by side.
If your clarinet is still having more problems then the loaners, find a really, really, really good clarinet technician/engineer/artist/genius that knows the R13 top to bottom and routinely sets up clarinets for professionals. There may be only a hand full of such individuals around that you can trust to take some wood out of your instrument, if that's what it needs ...
This might be costly, but then again, might just be some junk in a register vent or tone hole, left over tuna salad stuck in the bore, MP warped, barrel funny, small leak ... etc. Or, might be within the tolerances of expectations for R13s ...
I bought an old Selmer (cheaply) a while back and it played weird ... found something that looked like dried spinach leaves stuck in the bore ... I guess regurgitated side salad from Wendy's modified the bore specifications ...
I used an M13 (plain) and Scott 66mm (AA3?) barrel and V12s with my R13s and those clarinets were mostly awesome, in many ways ... but did have some quirks that you had to watch out for ...
So, short circuit guessing and let a pro take a look if you don't see something obvious ...
You know, it's not a crazy idea, send Tom Ridenour a message and see if he has someone to recommend ... he understands clarinet acoustics and should know a direction to turn ...
Tom
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-27 07:36
TLC,
I believe you are missing the point. There is OVER use of embouchure happening here in conjunction with a mouthpiece that has made the short tube notes too flat. It IS possible to get a 13 Series (or other such flat mouthpiece) to work but far too many of today's students are now in a similar situation where they force themselves to "bite" just to come UP to pitch........a completely untenable position.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-01-27 09:32
I never had to bite to raise the pitch on my M13 or M30. It was pretty on the dot consistently. Many pros play on these mouthpieces (and other "low" pitched mouthpieces) with no problems at all.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-01-27 13:34
Paul Aviles wrote:
> I believe you are missing the point. There is OVER use of
> embouchure happening here in conjunction with a mouthpiece that
> has made the short tube notes too flat.
As I read it, two notes and their twelfths are flat. The OP hasn't said anything else is out of tune - he explicitly says "The instrument plays well in tune, except for B3 and C3, which are very, very flat. E2 and F2 are each a shade flat." So, with all respect, it's hard for me to understand why we're talking about mouthpieces and embouchures. It sounds like a specific problem that is more likely to have a specific, local mechanical cause.
If the OP comes back and says the entire throat register is flat, we have a whole other topic. Meanwhile, the problem he's posed seems to demand a solution that doesn't change the intonation of the rest of the clarinet.
No?
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-27 16:33
No, we are referring to short tube vs. long tube problems, unless the OP is a VERY experienced player. In which case I have have missed the point.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-01-27 18:14
Paul Aviles wrote:
> No, we are referring to short tube vs. long tube problems,
> unless the OP is a VERY experienced player. In which case I
> have have missed the point.
Sorry, Paul, please spell this out more clearly. Why is it short-tube-long-tube if none of the other "short tube" notes is exhibiting a problem? If it's just a short-tube issue, why is the OP not complaining of flat F#4, G$, G#4, A4 and Bb4? Why are Eb4/Bb5 apparently not flat?
As I said in my last post, if Zachary comes back and says that he understated the problem and that all (or many) of those notes are also flat, I'm barking up the wrong tree.
If you're right, then I'm missing something important. Please help me.
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-01-27 18:15
Zachary, I'm curious, since you're an undergrad clarinet major at a well-know music school, what does your teacher at the Cleveland Institute of Music say about this? He surely has heard the problem first-hand in person (perhaps even played the instrument himself) and has given you some opinion about it.
Karl
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Author: Zacharywest158
Date: 2015-01-27 19:58
Hi kdk,
My teacher, Frank Cohen, and myself are working on experimenting with different setups to fix this issue. I played on Mr. Cohen's Bb clarinet, and had the same intonation issues with intonation on those notes. I came here for supplemental advice, and I've gotten a lot of good tips. Thank you!
The throat tones on my horn are sharp, as is typical, so I don't think it's a short tube issue. I could be wrong, though. I'm not a technician!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-27 20:05
It is a classic issue that I have experienced.
As stated above my issue was with a Gennusa mouthpiece. I picked it for response, but soon found the "C" two ledger lines above the staff was quite low. Nothing could be done about it.
The problem is manifest in a note where you are stuck in terms of "lipping" up or down. Other notes are not as acoustically locked in to the pitch of the mouthpiece ......... you'd HAVE to experience this to KNOW it.
I also have come from a place where I have had many odd tuning clarinets and mouthpieces (ie Wurlitzer, Boosey 1010) and have become overly familiar with the concept of MISMATCH acoustics. It's easier to experience this first with an extreme example, then you NEVER forget it.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-01-27 20:19
Zacharywest158 wrote:
> My teacher, Frank Cohen, and myself are working on
> experimenting with different setups to fix this issue. I played
> on Mr. Cohen's Bb clarinet, and had the same intonation issues
> with intonation on those notes.
Frank Cohen knows a little about clarinets. And he certainly knows a repair tech or two, so he should be able eventually to track this down.
Did you use your mouthpiece or his when you tried his clarinet? Did he try your clarinet, and if so, with whose mouthpiece?
Karl
Post Edited (2015-01-27 20:20)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-27 22:44
I defer to Mr. Cohen. He will know what is going on.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-01-28 01:17
The 13 series mouthpieces were designed with R13s in mind, in part by Montanaro. It's not mismatched acoustics.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-28 06:04
The 13 Series is marketed to us in the States as a mouthpiece that will play at A=440 on an R13 horn. What it does is play LOWER than their standard mouthpiece because it has a larger tone chamber. Whether this is better or worse can be a matter of debate, but others have also commented on the number of students that now have rather unattractive intonation problems with them. I stand on the side of wanting to keep the 12ths even and allowing room for comfortable downward AND upward adjustments with the embouchure.
The mere fact that band directors like the 13 Series because it keeps students from playing "bodaciously" sharp is just another reason for me not to like them.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-01-28 08:19
I wouldn't dislike a product based on others' misuse of it. . The 13 series has a clear purpose, and require a balanced, responsible approach to playing. Too much dropping of the jaw or an inappropriate reed will NOT work with them.
I played 13 series mouthpieces for almost 10 years with no problems. I play on an X0 now, and couldn't be happier. Not too high, not too low.
The biggest problems you'll encounter with the 13 series (and Vandoren in general) is inconsistency. We all know this, because we all recommend students and pros audition several mouthpieces of the same model to find the "best" one. If you really measured 10 of the same model, you would find inconsistencies in the facing, tip opening, and more importantly, the chamber and bore dimensions. This creates a perfect storm of variability in pitch, color and stability. Sure- a good representation of each Vandoren model plays very admirably. It's just too easy to get one of the bad ones in the batch and blame the whole series for it.
Post Edited (2015-01-28 08:23)
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Author: Zacharywest158
Date: 2015-01-28 18:02
Hello again,
I played Mr. Cohen's instrument using my mouthpiece, and I don't believe Mr. Cohen played my instrument during that lesson. He's played both my A and Bb before, and hasn't commented on any intonation issues that I can recall.
It's very possible that my B40 profile 13 isn't a great one. I remember buying it from WWBW in early high school, without the common sense to try a few out before committing.
I mentioned earlier that I recently switched to a shorter barrel to help with some intonation issues. It has definitely helped, because now I can comfortably play 2nd in orchestra without having to "bite up" to some slightly-sharper principal players.
Once again, thank you all!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-28 20:20
I would highly recommend having a set up that allows comfort IN THE MIDDLE of the pitch spectrum. If anything, finding yourself having to "lip DOWN" is a far more desirable propostion. You must consider that clarinet pitch is a compromise throughout the range. If you are pushing in one direction only, chances are there are many other pitch problems not being properly diagnosed.
And I have not had a problem finding good Vandoren mouthpieces since the 70's. I don't know where this urban legend of inconsistent production is coming from.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-01-29 02:09
It's not urban legend. If you get calipers, feeler guages and measuring tools you can easily find inconsistencies. Not to say Vandoren is the king of inconsistency, but it's certainly necessary to try before you buy- that is, many of the exact same model.
I agree with Paul- you do want to be slightly above 440, in the "middle" as he says, because in general, clarinets play at the top of the possible pitch.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-29 10:30
Dear TLC,
Are you judging the consistency of these mouthpieces solely on feeler guages and measuring tools, or are you trying them out as well?
One thing we have discussed on this board before is that with ALL the various factors that go into a mouthpiece's response (and that can sometimes be somewhat mysterious based on what's happening at the point where the bore and tone chamber meet), one or two factors may be changed to balance out what is happening at another point. Vandoren does still do final adjustments by hand (as you can see by the minute changes made to the baffle with hand tools).
Unlike Vandoren, the ESM mouthpieces seem to be completely finished by the CNC machine process. This manufacturer's consistency of facing is almost scary. You'd think you just played the same mouthpiece over and over as you pick up the next and the next. BUT I still find Vandoren to be very close to this standard judging one from the other by HOW IT PLAYS.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-01-29 18:52
Paul, I've done my fair share of auditioning mouthpieces. Usually 4 at a time.
And yet every time, I come across 2 that are pretty close, 1 that is acceptable, and the 4th is usually way off (generally speaking). I'm not in the situation to do this often, and I'm certainly not in the position to become complacent with inconsistency. 4 M30s should tune the same, and sound and respond almost exactly the same.
The measuring is what reveals how inconsistency in any part of the mouthpiece can produce the acoustical irregularities.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-29 19:57
Not so concerning the measurements.
You can have three different facings (albeit they would have to be relatively close to each other) with OTHER factors compensating so that they all play identically (you have the rail thickness, the baffle shape and depth, the size of the tone chamber -and angle of tone chamber as Brad Behn can rearrange in his Vintage series, and even variations in the bore and how well the architecture transitions from bore to tone chamber).
Only play testing will reveal consistency NOT measurements.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-01-29 21:47
Even if they DID play the same (which they often don't), they need to be measured identically so that you know exactly what to expect. You should know that if you're used to the M15, that you need a 3.5+ V12 reed. If you try another M15 and it's so resistant that you need to move down to a 3, then you know that the measurement is off.
Let's face it- the Vandoren refacers are NOT Brad Behn. I love his work on mouthpieces and have the highest respect for him. But Vandoren refacers are not at the caliber to where they can do the adjustments to bring a 1.05 and 1.10 mouthpiece to play the same.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-29 23:56
Just as long as you ARE play testing to get your results and not relying solely on the measurements..........I'm only trying to help.
.............Paul Aviles
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