 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: alexispianokeys
Date: 2015-01-12 22:46
Fail question? :P:P
I know projection depends from many things like reed and mouthpiece combination but I'm so curious to learn if there is a thing like that?
maybe leather ligatures are more projective?
buffet rc prestige green line
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2015-01-13 01:22
I have an old style metal ligature that is actually made correctly. A true rarity. It's a Selmer silver plated one and it only makes contact with the reed at it's two inner edges. I have never come across any other ligature that is better than it. However , there the little task of tightening up two screws instead of only one as on my Rovner ligature.
As for the ligature having anything to do with 'projection' . well, imagination is everything isn't it.
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-01-13 01:45
I love the Versa X, flaps over the cradle. Really centers the sound and gives a bit if hold that I haven't found in other ligatures. Tried everything from Bonade, Rico H, Luyben, Mark III, BG Traditional, basic 2 screws, and the Rovner Light. This one floors them all.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-13 02:14
I'm not a great fan of ligatures doing great things. But I do believe that one area where I hear differences, and others agree/disagree, is in metal ligatures being associated with sound more likely to be heard.
One exception to this rule I hear of is the Silverstein string ligature. It's cord, perhaps because it is very resistant to expansion by design, like metal, is thought of by a fair number of players to sound like a metal ligature.
Ishimori metal ligatures are considered amoung the best. Thats the only ligature Brad Behn, a well known mouthpiece maker makes available, and Carl (correction: Clark) Forbes, another big name in mouthpieces, seems to have it as his predominant recommended ligature for his wares. They're not cheap.
More reasonably priced and still excellent I think are Vandoren's lineup, particularly their M/O. http://www.vandoren-en.com/M-O_a80.html. They are the only metal ligature Vandoren wants its Master mouthpiece line players to be playing. All other flexible ligatures are good by Vandoren for this moutpiece brand.
Don't forget that the ultimate projective ligature is the one attached to the clarinet of the player who does quality long tone practice.
Post Edited (2015-01-14 02:06)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-01-13 02:45
Of course, the reed is what vibrates and excites the air column. All the ligature does is hold it to the mouthpiece table.
Most of us feel that some ligatures damp more of the sound than others, but there is no unanimity about which ligatures those are. In the end, the difference between one ligature and another exists mostly in the player's own consciousness and not at some external measuring point in the auditorium.
There are too many other variables involved in projection (including the definition of the word itself - read the ongoing thread about projection) for anything with as subtle an influence as the ligature to make a real difference.
The greatest influence on the sound's quality (including projection) is the player's approach to producing sound. A player who is able to make himself heard when he needs to be heard in an orchestra can do it with any ligature of decent quality, whether it's well wrapped string, leather or metal (plated or unplated).
Karl
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-01-13 04:04
From my personal experience, metal ligatures (VD Optimum, Ishimori, etc.) seem to allow for the most overtones, with string coming 2nd and leather coming 3rd. Of course there are always exceptions, and like kdk says, it mostly comes down to how you produce your sound.
WhitePlainsDave: I believe it's Clark Fobes not Carl Forbes.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2015-01-13 06:17
My vote for the most projecting ligature with a musical sound (who wants screechy loud?) is the Ishimori Solid Silver. It's expensive but it adds weight and depth to the sound that carries. Versa and the three BG Revelations (brass, silver, gold vertical bars on the reed) also project well as do the silver and gold BG Duos and the Robert Scott. All fine ligatures.
Nick Kuckmeier in Austria says he has been workng on a "top secret" ligature he is soon to unveil. That might be of interest too.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2015-01-13 17:17
Try some Bonades. They are very good and relatively inexpensive. If you have the opportunity, try a few because they vary a little.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-01-13 17:53
Am I the only one who doesn't like the way inverted Bonades scratch up the back of the mouthpiece? It seems trivial and silly if it plays well, but it has always bothered me, especially when I get a new mouthpiece.
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-13 17:53
Ed: I play a Bonade and would have been quick to concur with you. But that said, some people took issue with the manufacturer's quality control in a recent post by contributor Gene Chieffo in "Ligatures and Reeds."
You're smart to suggest [what I presume must be on site] tests of multiple incarnations of Bonade products.
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-01-13 20:09
I freely admit to being a ligature junkie. I keep buying more and more. Just as reeds are constantly changing during the life of a reed, or during seasons here in Wisconsin, the ligature that seems to work best on a given day also changes. Maybe it is the reed, maybe it is the weather, and maybe it is just my perception of the sound on a given day. Having options to choose from is a nice thing. What works for me may not work for you, or you may hear something quite different. You pays your money and you takes your chances.
Good luck!
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Author: alexispianokeys
Date: 2015-01-13 22:05
i love you all and your answers but i'm not searching for a "good" ligature.im looking for the most projective ligature you ever had!!hehe :D i hope you have one :P
buffet rc prestige green line
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2015-01-13 23:07
If you think projection comes from the ligature, good luck finding one. It comes from the richness and depth of your tone. You can't come ask a question, recieve a multitude of answers and go "yeah, but...". Take lessons, practice, refine, repeat. Time is how you create projection. Certainly some ligatures can deaden your sound, but the instrument, reed, ligature, and mouthpiece are really the last places anybody should be looking.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-01-14 01:49
TJTG wrote:
> Certainly some ligatures can
> deaden your sound, but the instrument, reed, ligature, and
> mouthpiece are really the last places anybody should be
> looking.
And of those, the ligature is probably dead last.
Karl
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Author: alexispianokeys
Date: 2015-01-14 02:13
Tjtg thanks for your time and I think you are definitely right.the only reason asking this question is to find ways to help myself improve this part of soundthanks all of you again:)
buffet rc prestige green line
Post Edited (2015-01-14 02:14)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-01-14 02:20
Most projecting ligature I've used is two rubber O-rings. Don't know why ... it's LOUDER and has more core sound.
My normal ligature is now "string" ... I've found some woven Nylon cord that has very low stretch, super flexible with uncanny light weight (a discovery in my wife's arts and craft supply cache). The individual Nylon filaments are very, very, very fine. I'll post what brand and stock number later ...
I use a Rovner as backup.
Tom
Post Edited (2015-01-14 02:21)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-14 02:23
Alex...the most projective ligature I could ever have would be one with a microphone attachment, itself attached to Spinal Tap's amp system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinal_Tap_(band)
Until such time, here's a reference to real projection, irrespective of ligature or sound system. Its pure, so the sound people on the board can't claim their otherwise legitimate argument that sound amplification "loses something in translation".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHZQKTwJQtQ
Dosage: Take one of the above url each time you wish your ligature to be your voice, when in fact, your voice is from within.
This is not to say equipment doesn't matter. Rather, it's instructions on being the best version of you.
(This tongue and cheek reply has an underlying meaning repeated from others: nothing beats commitment to clarinet fundamentals over the long run--i.e. scales, etudes, metronome, proper technique, lots of practice.)
====
Sidebar
(Who's in on helping me establish the first group and 12 step program for Ligatures Anonymous?)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-01-14 02:29
I've asked this question before. For those who have found equipment (mouthpiece, ligature or whatever) that seemed to increase your projection, how do you know?
For me it isn't possible to know from your seat in an orchestra with your ears a few inches behind your setup how well you project to the back of a concert hall in an ensemble environment. You need some way to judge your projection at the point you want to project to.
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-14 04:45
You don't know. You're point Karl is well taken. You can't do it alone. People or recording equipment need to be at the distal point, barring that is, possession of a time machine.
(tongue-in-cheek)
Of course in my case I do know, because my setup goes to "eleven."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOO5S4vxi0o
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Author: Ed
Date: 2015-01-14 05:01
Quote:
Am I the only one who doesn't like the way inverted Bonades scratch up the back of the mouthpiece?
You could throw a small piece of electrical tape over the top of the mouthpiece. I often tend to like the standard (non inverted) Bonades. They seem to focus a little better for me and don't scratch.
Regarding the quality issues, I generally just make sure that only the rails touch the reed and the sides of the ligature don't crimp the reed. I little gentle adjustment with a pair needle nosed pliers usually fixes any of those issues.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-01-14 06:03
Ed wrote:
> Quote:
Am I the only one who doesn't like the way inverted
> Bonades scratch up the back of the mouthpiece?
>
> You could throw a small piece of electrical tape over the top
> of the mouthpiece.
Well, no, the combination of the shape of the metal edges and the fact that they move as you tighten the screws on the inverted models results in eventually (actually, fairly quickly) tearing through the tape. I have solved the scratching problem by lining the edges with cork fixed in place with contact cement. But that makes the ligature fit tighter - doesn't actually go around some of my thicker V12s - and probably (but I can't prove it) damps some of the sound. ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
Karl
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Author: BobD
Date: 2015-01-14 17:29
The reed has to vibrate, but how much of it? Certainly not just the tip, but all the way to the end of the heel? If the heel also then a ligature that doesn't hold it rigidly to the lay modifies the excitation of the entire reed and thence the vibration characteristics and finally the sound. IMO "projection" requires a solidly held reed which requires a metal ligature......but this is only the primary requirement.
Bob Draznik
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-01-14 18:42
I agree with Bob Draznik. The reed should be held down perfectly on the lay of the MP and that part should only vibrate in unison with the body of the MP. In other words, the reed should "become part of the MP" in it's attachment area. This probably requires a flat table, not one with a concavity. Analogy is a loose attachment point of a diving board, compromising the "springiness" of the diving board system. A metal ligature, if properly fitted, might help stiffen the reed in it's area that shouldn't vibrate. I use rather tightly wound, un-stretchy string to facilitate my ideas ... but a perfectly fitted metal ligature might work better, IMHO.
Tom
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-14 19:17
I have to ask, part rhetorically and part inquisitively, are the top pros changing their ligatures that frequently? These are people holding positions that 300 very fine clarinetists would want, in a moment's notice, to trade places with.
(And by the way, I mean changing ligatures because they found a better product, not a higher paying endorsement deal from Company "X". I'm not saying a top pro would "sell out," playing inferior equipment for endorsement money. I am saying though that given a top pros pick of 5 different models of musical product "Y," equal in value to them, that some pros might be swayed by the most lucrative endorsement deal. And I don't blame them in that case.)
Any true advantage achieved through clarinet setup, even if minor, is one, I imagine, a top clarinetist would avail themselves of, in a moment's notice, even if it involved significant expense: which ligatures, relatively speaking, are not.
Drucker played the same [type of] ligature through his career I understand. And this was a man I do know for a fact loved to try mouthpieces, ammasing quite the collection of things (i.e. mouthpieces).....I think the expression of his was, "not much better than doorstops," at least compared to the mouthpiece his teacher Leon Russianoff gave him, that he played from then on.
So I think Mr. D wasn't/isn't afraid to tinker where he thought improvements in setup might be found.
Of couse Mr. D is one man, with one set of opinions. Others should be free to engage in the lawful commerce of their choosing and I wish them well in finding the holy grail of ligatures. But don't you find it odd that top ligature manufacturers tend to not publish studies that show loudness, strength of harmonics etc? We're not even scientifically certain what makes for a sound best heard from a distance, although L. Omar Henderson did a wonder job, and clearly knows a thing or two I think on the matter, in explaining his findings on same in a recent thread.
One exception. I do believe that Silverstein put some "science" up on their website. But I also believe it came to them gratis from a product owner/supporter.
Though it was a while back, before so many ligature options, how I wish "Leon and Kal," (Russianoff and Opperman that is) could be here to comment on this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edo1S1UUd14
Mr. Russianoff, never shy for offering his opinion (nor Mr. Opperman I hear), I suspect would write here if he found a student of his posting on ligatures:
"get your as* off the clarinet bboard and into those assignment I gave you. I want them at '125,' with perfect fingers."
Post Edited (2015-01-14 19:22)
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-01-14 20:55
The best ligature lets you take the mouthpiece and reed off without struggle or having to reset the reed and ligature. Anything else is cosmetic and entirely subjective.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-01-14 21:23
WhitePlainsDave wrote:
>
> (And by the way, I mean changing ligatures because they found a
> better product, not a higher paying endorsement deal from
> Company "X".
We'd probably never know, would we?
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-01-14 21:25
Most of the time when players talk or think about "projection" and equipment, they truly are thinking about volume of sound and clarity of response as they hear their own playing. We tend to assume that a sound we can hear better will project better to the back of the hall through a cover of other background instruments.
That said, ligature designers tend to focus more on the way the reed is held than on the material doing the holding. It happens that metal and plastic (Gigliotti ligatures) are able to be formed in more ways than cloth. Unless you insert a metal plate of some kind into a cloth ligature where it crosses the reed, there isn't much to do in designing the contact area except to make it wider or narrower. Metal can be dimpled, it can have vertical rails, preventing contact down the center area, it can be raised entirely off the reed at the edges and a rail or other contact points placed in the center to make the contact. So, it's hard to say for certain that metal is a better material except in that it offers greater flexibility in the design.
Karl
Post Edited (2015-01-14 21:31)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-01-14 21:43
One thing that we've probably all experienced is the feeling that our greatest freedom of tone and response comes when we're holding the reed to the mouthpiece with one thumb while initially testing it. I for one have always judged ligatures against the way the reed vibrates when I hold it with my thumb. No ligature I've ever tried exactly duplicates that feeling.
The thing about holding a reed with my thumb is that I'm pressing on a fairly small area at the center of the bark - not the rails, not the full length of the reed, not the full width of the reed. I've wondered more and more why ligatures aren't designed to do this - to hold the reed with a single screw or pressure source at the center of the bark.
I have my own intuitive ideas about why this might work better than traditional rails or cross-strips, etc., but I probably couldn't convince anyone that my reasoning is correct. So, I don't really think much about why the single-point thumb anchor seems to work better, I just trust my ears that it does. Now, who makes a ligature to simulate this?
Karl
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2015-01-14 22:12
OK, this is a biased review, but according to a recent article with some technical data on sound spectrum, the "loudest" ligature as measured by the amplitude of the fundamental is the "drake" ligature at -21db, although when you bring in the harmonics the claim is that the silverstein is the "richest".
Looking at the plots though, I'd say that the $15 Luyben ligature might be your best bang for your projecting buck.
Here is the full article:
http://www.silversteinworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/CASS-article-copy.pdf
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2015-01-15 01:15
The shortcomings of this ligature comparison test are legion (i.e. numerous).
1)How representative can the open throat G be of the overall performance of the ligature on all the other notes?Does the open G have any predictive value?
Shouldn't graphs of other notes in other registers also have been included and analyzed?
2) Just because overtone partials appear on the oscillosope, does that mean anybody perceives them? At concerts people use their ears to interpret sounds; they don't read graphic representations of the sounds on little oscilloscopes nestled in their laps. Even Scriabin didn't recommend that.
3) If Luybens ligatures really give a better sound than Bonades why do so many classical players prefer Bonades for themselves and their students?After all the decades these models have been on the market, could so many have missed the obvious superiority of the plastic one?
4) Do enough clarinetists use Drake ligatures to to justify including them in this test? What about the many permutations of the Bonade, including both the regular and the inverted in gold plate and the Marcellus-style Bonade with the center cut out. What of the many Rovner ligatures including the Versa and the Eddie Daniels it replaced (the latter was Amy Ma's favorite in her Youtube ligature comparison video, which I highly recommend). What of the BG Duos gold and silver. And BG Revelation in gold, silver and brass vertical bars? And the whole tribe of Ishimoris, including silver, gold, copper, pink gold, etc ?
5) On the broader question of tone quality, suppose a typical open G as played by, say, Richard Stoltzman, were to produce a graph like the one recommended by Silverstein, and Wenzel Fuchs's typical G did not for some reason have quite as wide an overtone profile on the graph? Would it then follow that most clarinetists and music lovers would necessarily prefer Stoltzman's sound to Fuch's? Just because of one note's representation on a graph??
Finally, I find it most instructive that when Amy Ma in her Youtube "Ligature Review" used her ears instead of a graph to decide which ligatures she preferred, she mentioned that the Silverstein didn't sound the way she had expected it too; instead it sounded "brilliant." I would guess that her use of this adjective recognizes the wider spectrum of overtones on the Silverstein. Yet, in printed remarks that accompany the video (in answer to the question of which ligatures she preferred), she said her favorites were the Eddie Daniels and the gold Charles Bay. She also says in the video that she liked the "dark" sound of the Eddie Daniels. So, just as Bob Dyan used to say "you don't need a weatherman to tell which way the wind is blowing," maybe clarinetists don't really need a graph to hear which sound quality they like?
Post Edited (2015-01-15 05:49)
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-01-15 04:23
I believe the ligature that has the greatest projection with the most harmonious overtones is the Unicorn Ligature made of unobtanium.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-15 04:38
So let me see if I can tally the score:
There's no one universal way we can agree upon that makes for the ability for our clarinet play to be heard from a distance sans microphone, no one universal clarinet tone that we all deem is best, and no agreement that certain ligatures or techniques might even help us get closer to that sweet projective sound, even if we could agree what it was.
Wisco99: I happen to like the Unicorn ligature. It's single projecting horn on the top of the mouthpiece makes it quite easy to get the ligature at the perfect height from the mouthpiece tip, and the correct left/right orientation.
It's the darn pegasus ligature that's a boat load of junk. (wink)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2015-01-15 04:50
Using Greek mythology as a guide, I would go with Proteus. Give me a ligature that is protean--able to change shape, form, and color at will. Why sound just one way when you can sound so many different (and equally good) ways?
How much would we pay for a ligature like that?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-01-15 04:59
WhitePlainsDave wrote:
> It's the darn pegasus ligature that's a boat load of junk.
> (wink)
Or, a doorstop.
Karl
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2015-01-15 07:39
Just because I'm in the mood for a little discussion.
Disclaimer, I don't really care about ligatures and Michael Lowenstern says it better than me. And yes I am a hypocrite as I spent $100 on a Peter Spriggs ligature.
http://youtu.be/6ghMCiV8hTg
Yes they should have tested all notes on the clarinet, but open G is as good as any note to test a spectrum, ask Eddie Daniels:
http://youtu.be/10LxbdRJ-UQ
The question was about projection which is actual perhaps the easiest to translate from graph to auditory perception. Human hearing generally perceive sound in the 20 Hz to 20 kHz range and are most sensitive to frequencies between 2,000 and 5,000 Hz. It's hard to tell the x axis on the plots but the range of is 20hz-20khz so all should be audible.
The higher the harmonic peaks, the more sound energy comes out, the louder it is perceived by the listener. So there is definite value in these plots, we just need more of them!
Also, I recall at least one vote for the Luyben from one of our BBoard regular and top pro (Zurich opera I think).
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=187060&t=186865
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
Post Edited (2015-01-15 18:55)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-17 20:58
I'd say you'd be safe looking at the Martin Freres (leather with metal insert), or BG Revelation (same architecture as the Freres), and the Vandoren M/O (work on ANY mouthpiece).
............Paul Aviles
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-01-18 00:15
I definitely think that now, the Rico H projects more for me than the other ones I own. However, you can't go wrong with the MO either. Love the black and silver platings.
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Author: AClarinet
Date: 2015-01-18 19:12
Hi Tyler .
do you have the rico silver or gold?
Which of them you reccomend ? M/o or rico h?
I have a versa but is too "Dark"
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Author: AClarinet
Date: 2015-01-18 19:13
Hi Tyler .
do you have the rico silver or gold?
Which of them you reccomend ? M/o or rico h?
I have a versa but is too "Dark"
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-01-20 05:07
I like the silver best on the Rico H.
The MO is good in black and silver.
For a fabric ligature with the feel of a metal ligature, I recommend the Mark III.
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Author: WeberBrahms
Date: 2015-01-21 03:51
When I was younger, I think ligatures made a bigger difference for me than they do now.
Since figuring out over time that I need a small tip opening on my mouthpieces to get the sound and articulation I want, ligature choice has become one of the least important factors for me.
For what it's worth, my main mouthpiece is an M13Lyre, and I use a Bonade inverted ligature, and a string ligature.
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-01-22 07:54
Weber Brahms, I agree. Once you get the mouthpiece and reed relationship right for what you want to sound like, the ligature makes less and less of a difference. Sometimes, I can't even hear the differences, even through recordings. Case in point, when I do ligature tests, different ligatures are always picked by my audience. I use the same reed and play the same way, with the same audience. So if a certain ligature was truly the best, why wouldn't it consistently win?
That's why I use the Mark III- I know it won't slip on me, is metal free (to protect the mouthpiece and reed), and gives no limitations for me in sound. And really, most ligatures play the same for me.
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