 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Gene Chieffo
Date: 2015-01-11 20:58
Hi there, new to the board. I retired from Army Bands 10 years ago and the equipment I retired with is starting to wear thin. I still like my R13s but I switched from a Genusa mouthpiece to the Vandoren M13 after dropping the Genusa on a church floor and shattering it a couple of years ago. Still have lots of Vandoren V12 4s and a few 3.5s but I recently ordered some Rico Grand Concert Thick Blank 3.5s. Although I am still in the early stages of trying them out and haven't played one outside of the house yet, I think I like them. Nice response and just about the right amount of resistance.
The Bonade reverse ligatures I have are starting to tarnish so I ordered a new one on Amazon. Big mistake, its a piece of junk that is misshapen and won't stay on. There is an apparent lack of quality control there, I should have read reviews before ordering it. Anyway, I am considering the Vandoren Optimum and the Rico H, either gold or silver.
I guess I'm asking for some opinions on the Rico reeds and those ligatures and what do people think about that equipment in relation to the old R13/Vandoren/Bonade/Philadelphia tradition that I was raised on and continue to think of as what I'm trying to achieve. I have to admit however, I am very open to new ideas, especially after hearing a lot of Ricardo Morales lately, who threw away the mold, and is fabulous.
Gene
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-01-11 22:16
I play on Gregory Smith mouthpieces, and use 3.5 V12 or Rico Grand Concert Thick Blank. Both are great reeds, and I use both. I probably should be in a 12 step program for ligature addiction. I am still buying more. Muncy woodwinds has for me been a high quality place to shop. After spending all those years in the military you deserve more than one ligature. I still have the gold plated Harrison ligature which the Rico H is modeled after and it is great. I just ordered 4 more ligatures, and have not yet touched them...one is starring at me right now on my desk, a Robert Scott, and my BG Super Revelation is the best for articulation. Go ahead, indulge yourself and buy several high quality ligatures. Some days one works better than the other and options are a lovely thing. Gotta run, my 12 step ligature addiction program is starting shortly. Best of luck to ye.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-11 22:18
You should get plenty of opinions here, likely at least no less valuable than mine, which like everyone else's, my opinions are jaded by my own experiences, biases and limitations.
* Did tarnishing of the Bonade, you feel, affect your play and voicing? If no, why switch? (By the way, "because I enjoy tinkering" is an perfectly acceptable answer on your part--just accept that that's what your doing before you search.)
* The Vanoren Optimum ligatures are in my opinion, excellent, having come from the same traditions in schools of play as you. Then again, so is the basic Rovner I strap on regularly. I hold the opinion that many players are more pationate about ligatures than their skills sets are advanced enough to truly take advantage of what, if any true advantages may exist [for them] in one ligature versus another. Others on the bboard will rightfully claim that ligature changes opened up their world, and those of their cohorts, and their opinion deserves equal time to mine. I also believe that if you think you play better on some setup, you are more confident, and to some extent you DO play better, even if you've been tricked by your own biases that objective measurements might be able to disprove. Clearly, some ligatures are junk, I do recommend brand names.
* Let me go out on a limb here and not single out Vandoren, high end Rico's, or yet other reed brands, and, in my opinion, spend better time asking you a question that I think will help you regardless of whose cane reed you play? Do you own Ridenour's ATG reed finishing system? I ask because I truly feel learning its techniques will get you more playable reads out of any brand you choose. Still further, what I love may not be what you love. If it helps, I'm a Vandoren cross brand and Gonzalez FOF user, whose seen great promise in D'Addario's 2 new reed offerings so far. ATG is not perfect, and I work for nobody in musician's gear.
* You seem to have touched upon synthetic reeds, and I'm glad your mind is always open, like mine. If it wasn't, for example, I wouldn't have tried many ligatures to feel, in my opinion and for my setup, the cost differential between them wasn't justified. Instead, my claims would be nothing but self serving my beliefs.
...but back to synthetics. Try them....or search the bboard, if you haven't already, on the tons of opinions on them. I think its fair to say that Forestone and Legere are the brands that most players who use synthetics turn to. They are consistent balanced products that require no hydration, and are little affected by ambient weather conditions. I like to say they give me 83% of what a good cane read will get me, but 100% of the time. I think they are great for practice, great for some, and if nothing else, are giving the cane producers something to think about as it regards trying to produce greater consistency despite arundo donax being anything but consistent, even when of excellent stock.
I hope you get many opinions here, and consider them all prior to purchase.
Thank you for your service to our country.
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-01-11 22:35
I too spend some time in a military band long ago. The guy playing first chair clarinet was the heavyweight in the band. He came in every morning and spent a few minutes wrapping on a string ligature. He sounded magnificent. What more can I say?
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Author: Gene Chieffo
Date: 2015-01-11 23:44
'* Did tarnishing of the Bonade, you feel, affect your play and voicing? If no, why switch? (By the way, "because I enjoy tinkering" is an perfectly acceptable answer on your part--just accept that that's what your doing before you search.)'
The tarnishing doesn't seem to affect anything much. Just an aesthetic thing. When my teacher first had me switch to a Bonade I was playing a Gigliotti plastic ligature and he hated the way it looked. That was as big a reason as any for him having me switch.....Anyway, I do like the way they play. What other one available now do people think feels similar to the Bonade? Also, just tried a BG leather model with a single screw. It seemed OK, but I prefer the Bonade.
Gene
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Author: nbclarinet
Date: 2015-01-12 00:15
I hear that the ishimori ligatures are very good if you are wed to getting a metal ligature vs a rovner style ligature.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-12 00:33
I'm sorry you had the experience you did with the new Bonade.
It sounds like it wasn't a shipping issue. Regardless, I might consider next time ordering directly from Weiner Music, Muncy Winds or Woodwind and Brass.
One of the areas that I do think ligatures can make a difference--along with many other factors--is how bright or dark your tone is.
These words, bright and dark, are so often used, and subject to different people's ideas of each, that I feel it necessary to provide examples of what, at least I think, each aer
Gervase DePeyer, I think, has a brighter tone:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE-i3NGO5wE
Jon Manasse, I think, has a darker one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9nTKA3meRc
And I think that metal ligatures can help towards brightness, and leather ones towards darkness. [This is not a hard and fast, or pehaps even a generally accepted rule.]
Funny about the aforementioned string ligatures. The new Silverstein string ligature, which may cost more than my first clarinet, is reported to play more like a metal ligature, quite possibly given the chord used on it is reported to be highly resistant, like metal, to stretch.
How much do you want to spend? The Ishimori metal ligatures are also not cheap, but are enjoying good press, and are stocked by Brad Behn and Carl Forbes: two leading mouthpiece makers.
Given the price, I might be tempted to buy another Bonade from Weiner or Muncy. They're both are family businesses that most of us report to stand by their products.
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Author: Gene Chieffo
Date: 2015-01-12 01:02
cxgreen48 wrote:
> FYI about the Bonade ligature manufacturing quality...
>
> http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=280898&t=280643
>
> I have found the same to be true. I ordered 3 and all of them
> were defected, but I chose the least misshapen one and
> defective screws screwed themselves into place over time (or
> something like that...)
I really should have done a little research before ordering the ligature. However, I am returning it for a refund at least.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-01-12 06:49
The VD Optimum is great (especially with the vertical rails plate. It's the only plate I use.)
+1 on the string ligature too, though I usually use the Optimum for ease of attachment and for maybe a little more overtone in the sound. The string ligature doesn't play like a typical fabric ligature though - it's not a muffled/dark sound at all.
I've also tried my teacher's Ishimori metal ligature which was great, but I believe they're quite a bit more expensive. Lots of upper overtones in the sound - very "ping-y."
I don't think ligatures make a huge, obvious difference in what other people hear, but (at least for me) they can change the response a bit, and some ligatures seem to allow for more upper overtones in the sound than others, affecting projection - some ligatures (usually fabric) are more "muted/muffled/dark" and some (usually metal) are more "ping-y/vibrant/bright." I usually tend towards more vibrant metal ligatures because more overtones = more presence/projection.
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Author: Gene Chieffo
Date: 2015-02-17 16:00
So I experimented with Rico grand concert Think blank and evolution reeds. After an initial honeymoon, I find myself drawn back to the Vandoren V12s. With the V12s I generally play 4s, occasionally 3.5s. The Ricos I bought were all 3.5s and after a break in period seem to get too soft. I may try a box of 4s, but the vandorens just seem to have more depth and body. Also, having acquired a Vandoren optimum ligature and a Vandoren M13 lyre, the Vandorens just seem to fit better. Go figure.
By he way, I switched recently from the M13 to the M13 lyre and it seemed to also add depth to the sound. Dare I say it darkens it up a bit?
Complicating the ligature picture, I got a Bonade standard ligature from Mike Hammer yesterday that he altered. Gold plated it and added heavier screws. I think I like it better than the Vandoren. Seems to even out the scale a bit somehow.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-18 00:17
My son likes the sound of grand concert select thick blank 3.0 (filed) with M15, they sound clear, and centered. And most reeds we tried, rather, all of the reeds we've tried were all good (they were all playable, I would not say all of them are recital grade, but good enough to play in the orchestra settings). We did not have to discard a single reed yet. Our neighborhood music store tells me they have the M13 and M13 lyre that we asked them to get for my son to try, so, we will compare them to the M15 this week.
I don't know what the difference is, but, on Amazon, they have Rico Grand Concert Select, thick blank (filed) and Rico Grand Concert thick blank without the wording (select) with different price point as well as the packages are different.
Post Edited (2015-02-18 09:25)
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-02-18 02:25
I'm very simple about ligatures and reeds. I use the Versa X ligature, with the flaps over the cradle. Holds the reed on well, and gets great response out of the reed. No issues here.
I tend to gravitate towards rather indestructible ligatures, so that I have one less thing to worry about. I've been impressed with some metal ligatures (and though the Versa X is the best), I always ended up coming back to either the Versa X or Mark III due to their practicality.
I use the Reserve X0 mouthpiece with 3.5+ Reserve Classic reeds and have almost no reed problems at all. All I do to my reeds is smoothing the vamp and back with fine sandpaper (2000 grit), and balancing, usually to the left side.
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2015-02-18 04:23
For years I would only use Rovner ligatures, mostly the "light" model, but later the Eddie Daniels and then the Mark III. I was trying for a more "German" sound and felt they would perform more like the German string ligature I acquired when studying in Germany.
However, recently, I went through an objective evaluation of my ligature collection that include the above plus a Rovner Dark, original Harrison, Silver/Gold Rico H ligature, inverted Bonade and recently the VD Optimum and an Ishimori Brushed Satin-Gold ligature.
To my surprise, the original Harrison was the least invasive (or perhaps freest) and seemed to allow the reed to take on its natural characteristics. The Rico H ligatures worked well for me (I liked gold best, but then I play Hamilton CSGs), but were not really quite like the Harrison, although they did play a bit darker. Overall, I like the Optimum best because of its flexibility (i.e., 3 plates: Bonade-style vertical rails, Masters-style horizontal rails and one with 4 "dots"). I tend to like the horizontal rails best as this feels "free-er" to me, although I also use a foam-based double-stick tape (with a vinyl coating) on the "4-dot" plate that conforms exactly to the reed and gives a warmer sound, albeit at the cost of some extra resistance. The Ishimori (a Bonade-style ligature that plays better for me than the Bonade or the Optimum with vertical-rail-plate) produces a denser, more focused/efficient sound that works well in the orchestra.
I still like the Rovner Mark III but I must say that in my attempts at an objective assessment, I felt that the metal ligatures all yielded a "smoother" sound (less harsh?) than did the fabric ligatures. I felt this quality to be distinct/independent from a sound's bright-dark quality.
Given my experience, if I had to pick ONE ligature it would (without reservation) be the Optimum.
Finally, my experience is not that the ligatures, in and of themselves, yield a different sound, but they provide a different "feel" to the player that perhaps encourages the production of a different sound.
Bob
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-02-18 04:39
I have historically been drawn to ligatures with the parallel metal bars (Bonade style) running vertically on the reed. There are a bunch of good ligatures with this design worth trying: the metal Ishimori, Peter Spriggs Floating Rail, Vandoren Leather with the metal plate, BG Revelation, Martin Freres (leather version of the aforementioned BG).
But I am going to make a heretical statement. Given how much I loved ligatures with this prevalent architecture, I am amazed at all the great attributes of the Vandoren M/O ligature. Its contact points are two short horizontal bars that touch the reed at the top and at the bottom. Nothing could be further from the Bonade ligature design, and yet it is one of the best responding ligatures I have. It is also amazingly convenient to use and super compact on the mouthpiece.
Now though you have to make sure you order the "regular" M/O for any NON Masters mouthpiece. The M/O ligature comes in a smaller, more angled version expressly for the Masters mouthpiece which is NOT a good match for other mouthpieces. Oddly, the standard M/O seems to work fine on the Masters if you don't need to have the ligature sit high on the reed.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-02-18 06:42
The M/O is good- Add the Versa X to the "rail" configuration, since the cradle is essentially two vertical rails that terminate in an apex (the rails only touch the reed)
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-18 06:44
Gene, I can't comment on v12 as I have no first hand experience with it, other than to say Ricardo Morales says he uses them after filing and adjusting them on his youtube video. My son's old teacher says it's a waste of money...
I did goto the music store and had my son compare M13 to M13 lyre to M15. Verdict is, he says he feels much more in control with M13 lyre... so I asked him if has to have it, and he smiled at me. So we came home with it.
Post Edited (2015-02-18 09:14)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-02-18 06:54
yaseungkim wrote:
> Gene, I can't comment on v12 as I have no first hand experience
> with it, other than to say Ricardo Morales says he uses them
> after filing and adjusting them on his youtube video.
As far as I have heard, for most of the current season Morales has been using Legeres.
Karl
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-18 07:35
I saw Ricardo 's endorsement on the product on legeres website saying he uses the signature series when I bought a few for my son, but my son didn't like the plastic reed.
Everybody has different mouth shape, different lips, jaw and everything else, so what works for Ricardo doesn't automatically will work for you... a costly lesson for me.
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Author: Gene Chieffo
Date: 2015-02-18 13:38
yaseungkim, did you go to Mike's shop and get the mouthpiece? If so, I'm going to ask him for a cut. Glad your son likes it!
And by the way, I personally have a fairly large store of V12s that I built up prior to 2005 and they seem to be playing well. Does anyone have any thoughts on the life longevity of the unused reed?
Karl, I thought the same thing about Mr Morales as far as reed use these days.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-02-18 14:46
Hey Gene,
Like you, I have some reeds from the past. I'd like to think they last a long time as long as they are not stored where they have to endure unusual extremes in temperature and humidity (as long as they share space in the house where you are presumably comfortable, they should be comfortable). As time marches on, reeds may require a bit longer break in period.
I am currently working some White Master reeds from about 20 years ago. They seemed be playable after about four days, but I noticed that they got a bit better the second week.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2015-02-18 17:38
In answer to your question about which ligatures have a similar design to the Bonade:
The Bonade is designed with two vertical strips of metal that touch the reed; the curving band of the ligature is not supposed to touch the edges of the reed at all. Unfortunately, most Bonades today are not made well and the band part does touch the reed.
The Ishomori uses similar vertical strips of metal, but it is designed better and the band part is kept high enough above the reed not to touch it.
Several BG ligatures also have vertical metal strips and hold the band high enough above the reed to avoid touching it on the sides. These BG models include the all-metal Tradition and the Duo models. The fabric Revelation models also have vertical metal strips in contact with the reed but they don't always fit as snugly as they should or apply downward pressure evenly.
So, in sum, if you want to apply the Bonade theory of vertical reed strips holding the reed but lifiting the ligature band well above it, try
any of the metal Ishimoris
the BG Tradition
the BG Duo, gold or silver
and maybe any of the three BG Revelation fabric models (with metal strips of gold, silver, brass), but be more careful with these to check the even placement of the vertical strips on the reed.
PS Peter Spriggs' metal ligature has the Bonade style vertical rails as well but he has them "floating" rather than fixed in place. His is a very resonant ligature.
Post Edited (2015-11-28 02:43)
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