 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: LaurieBell
Date: 2014-12-23 04:52
Earlier this year, I purchased a new mouthpiece by Brad Behn and a 66 mm replacement barrel by Wesley Rice for my Bb clarinet, both of which I like very much.
Up until that time I tended to play sharp. Now my pitch is mostly right on the money, except for open G which is a little flat.
My problem is, besides the open G, that I have no wiggle room for when the band plays sharp.
I've tried a few short barrels from my old collection, but oddly enough that doesn't change my pitch much unless I go with the really short barrel.
Should I go ahead and order a 64 mm barrel to test that out? What should I do about the open G. I'm a fairly seasoned player and didn't used to have a big variation in this note (although I know it can be a problem child).
I know there is an earlier thread on replacement barrels, but if you have one you really like please let me know in your reply.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-12-23 05:41
I prefer to tune comfortably with my barrel pulled out a few millimeters. That way, I can always 'make room' in situations like you describe. I could never be comfortable with tuning 'spot on' with everything pushed in because the effect on larger wind instruments when the ambient temperature DROPS becomes that much more.
That said, I'm also curious about your open "G." Normally the problem note in the chalumeau is the "F" which can be aided by opening up the first side key when the desired dynamic is rather high and there is no other choice.
How is your throat "F?"
Furthermore, I usually tune the chalumeau to the open "G." Could this help?
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2014-12-23 06:03
I agree with Paul, better to have a little wiggle room, especially playing in a band where you know for sure will get sharp. Why did you ask about a 64 if your using a 66? Why not a 65? As far as the G being flat relative to the other throat notes, that's a problem. It's possible that the pad under the A key is too low, or there's dirt in the first hole. If not you can consider having the G undercut but an expert. The other thing is that either the mouthpiece or the barrel is making that flat. Did you have that intonation problem with your older barrel and or mouthpiece? Anytime you buy a new anything for a clarinet you make sure it tunes as well or better than what you were using before. Different mouthpieces and barrels will have different effects on intonation on certian clarinets. Try before you buy. Intonation is of prime importance.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-12-23 12:09
Maybe the first open pad (under the throat A touchpiece) is too low, worth checking.
Is the open G not flat with another barrel of the same length?
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2014-12-23 13:34
Open G should be the base for adjusting the barrel and tuning the upper joint. As clarinbass suggests, check the pad under the A key so it does not restrict the air flow out of the tone hole. The thumb tube has more to do with F#.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-12-23 19:02
And, you may have gunk in the tone hole under the throat A, as well. Not as likely, but maybe ... Pad clearance and gunk sound like good possibilities ... You will have to remove keys to find out ...
Undercutting can be tricky ... maybe not a solution in your case.
Do you tune your "open G" with the RH down? Or use any resonance fingerings, which might lower the pitch?
I agree with earlier posts, you need a couple of millimeters or so of "wiggle room" with your barrel joint adjustments.
Good that you find Brad Behn MPs really good ... one is on my bucket list.
Tom
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-12-25 21:36
Laurie:
I'm curious to know, when you say your open G is flat, just how many accoustical cents you are talking about. There's bound to be someone in your vicinity with a smart phone tuning app that can take this reading for you.
Second, what happens when you play open "G"...."not so open?" Or what I mean to say is with the fingers of the right hand down, as guys like Tom Ridenour like to encourage.
Sadly, this may further flatten that "G"--but it's worth a try.
Clearly though, as contributors have already said, life is easier when its metaphorical dials are set to "5 of 10," allowing us room for change in either direction to accomodate life's curveballs. Finding yourself playing on a barrel that tunes to a slightly pulled out state, so adjustments in either direction can be made, or to atleast have a smaller barrel available to you, clearly fall under "best clarinet practices."
If you can get your hands on a tuning barrel, whose length is adjustable, that might be a good starting point to find out what permanent length barrels you should have in your case.
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2014-12-27 03:55
Clarinet doesn't even play in tune with itself in the first place. If I warmup first and then make adjustments to get open G in tune with the tuner, that's all fine and good. Then I'll play a middle C and it'll be sharp. In fact the whole clarion will be sharp, especially the upper clarion.
So If I pull out to get the clarion in tune, then guess what? Now the open G I just got in tune will sink flat. In fact all the throat tones will be flat. No way to win. You either get flat throat tones and an in-tune clarion, or you get a sharp clarion and in-tune throat tones. But there's no way to get both the clarion AND the dang throat tones BOTH in tune with the same adjustment setting of the barrel. No point in pulling out at the middle joint because it won't stay put and will only gradually get shoved back in all the way as you're playing.
And varying dynamics also messes up the intonation. The louder the volume in the throat tones, the flatter the pitch. Pop music songs are usually spot-on in tune. If you've ever trying playing clarinet along with a famous pop song, you'll see how the inherently poor intonation of our instrument is badly exposed. It really makes me wanna just say the heck with it sometimes and sell the horn and maybe try guitar or bass. At least those instruments are actually tunable and you don't have to spend many thousands and year after year just learning to get a basic in tune sound.
Post Edited (2014-12-27 03:56)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-12-27 05:01
The trick is KNOWING that there are compromises in pitch and where they lie.
The open "G" should be played with a relaxed embouchure. If you are "muscling" it in any way (biting is the other term) then yes, you have no where to go and no way to adjust. If you stay nice and easy on the open "G" a lot of problems start going away.
I'd also suggest trying (at least in short spurts) double lip embouchure to anyone caught in the trap just described above.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2014-12-27 05:38
I could envision playing long tone chromatic scales with a tuner and gradually memorizing the intonation quirks of a horn. Then you'll eventually get to a point where you know your particular instrument's quirks so well that when you see that same bad note coming up in a part, you'll know in advance which direction and by how much the intonation is off before you even play the note.
And then you'll know how to adjust accordingly in advance so that when you get to it, the note will never have the chance to ring out of tune in the first place.
But I pose the question, how will going double-lip solve the problem of our instrument inherently not playing in tune with itself? If the clarion runs sharp when the throat tones are adjusted in tune, then isn't it a done deal at that point? Same question with different barrels and mouthpieces. If the length of one barrel gives you a flat chalumeau register and an in-tune clarion, then won't a shorter barrel perhaps give you an in tune chalumeau but a sharp clarion again?
No way to win, I tell you. Again, GUITAR!
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-12-27 05:45
"If I warmup first and then make adjustments to get open G in tune with the tuner"
The adjustments here Mr. Galaga, just so we're clear, are at the space between the top of the upper joint and the bottom of the barrel, correct?
..because that would be the correct thing to do here. Oh, and maybe you can cover the right hand on your open "G" to bring it down a couple of acoustical cents? (See what Mr. Aviles also said about sharp open "G" notes.)
"Then I'll play a middle C"
Try the "G" 4 tones up, instead. And let's suppose it's sharp too, just like your middle "C."
"So If I pull out to get the clarion in tune"
Where do you pull out from in this second instance sir? The same as before, the space between the top of the upper joint and the bottom of the barrel, or instead, the space between the upper and lower joints?
Tom Ridenour, a strong word, but not the last word in tuning suggests you address this second tuning test with adjustments in the space between the upper and lower joints when encoutering sharpness on the second test, not touching the barrel you made adjustments to when you played your first tuning note: open "G."
Why not give his video a look see.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYx3pj0L790
And Mr. Aviles hit the nail on the head when he spoke of the fact that tuning on the clarinet will always be a series of compromises. But this is not to say that sometimes a clarinet may have real tuning issues, even allowing for compromise, and that taking the instrument to someone extremely knowledgeable in clarinet acoustics, and undercutting tone holes may be able to address issues.
Don't dare try undercutting yourself, or give it to a repairman who might say or think "gee undercutting, I've been meaning to learn that, I'd love to take your clarinet on."
I'll leave the acoustical science of undercutting for other posts, and other [Ridenour] videos on the subject, but emphasize that it can only help when the clarinet faces certain specific tuning issues in specific registers.
It is not a cureall.
Post Edited (2014-12-27 05:48)
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2014-12-28 00:05
Yes, I'm referring to adjusting between the top of the upper joint and the bottom of the barrel. The problem I've always had with adjusting at the middle joint is it doesn't stay put and eventually pushes all the way back in as you're playing.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-12-28 01:03
Consider getting a recorking done to the bottom of the upper joint sir so that it will stay in the position you set it in. It's an easy and inexpensive repair for any reasonable tech to effect.
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2014-12-28 01:09
A new tenon cork and/or tuning ring(s) will fix your problem with the middle joint gap closing during play.
A double lip embouchure will keep you from biting, as well as aid in the proper development of a single lip embouchure. Biting is often a cause of chronic sharpness in the clarion. If you find you can't produce the clarion notes using a double lip embouchure, you are very likely biting. You can also look for tell-tale gouging of the top of the mouthpiece by the top teeth. Elimination of biting in your playing will improve the intonation substantially as well as the tone, once the proper adjustments have been made in your embouchure - if that is indeed the problem. It is a very common issue.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-12-30 18:17
Paul Aviles wrote:
> That said, I'm also curious about your open "G."
it is not uncommon; linkage from thumb key puts pad under A key a little low.. or perhaps some crud built up in tonehole.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-12-30 23:54
Well I don't know about "common." I have been keeping current with a lot of new clarinets (for students etc.) and I have not really run into this as a misadjustment yet.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: LaurieBell
Date: 2015-01-04 00:41
Sorry for the delayed response, I was out of town. I response to WhitePlainsDave, I checked my tones on two different tuners. With everything pushed in, I'm about 2 cents sharp on Bb, and 2 cents flat on open G. If I add addition fingers or shading the open G goes flater.
Oddly enough, today my open G was very close to perfect. But there are other days when nothing I try brings it up the few cents to be in tune.
The two things I'll try that were suggested was to take my instrument in and have the A pad checked (it does look a little low compared to another clarinet I have), and I'll purchase another barrel. Even when I can get the open G in tune, the concert band I play in tends to play sharp after a few pieces, so it will help me to have some wiggle room.
Now, I need to search through the archives to find some suggestions on replacement barrels.
Thanks so much.
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