 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Alex K.
Date: 2015-01-03 04:45
What do you think about the regular vandoren reeds, yay or nay?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2015-01-03 05:15
They're reeds. The things a clarinetist can't live with and can't live without.
I think the major difference among all the reeds available today is in the way the cane is distributed - the design of the reed's profile. If a reed with a Vandoren "Traditional" ("Regular?") profile works well on a mouthpiece, they're fine. If it doesn't work on a given mouthpiece, then some other reed is in order.
My current mouthpiece seems to play at its best with Vandoren Traditional #4. My previous mouthpiece didn't work with them at all and I got more and more uncomfortable with the way V12s felt on it, which was one of the forces driving my search for a different mouthpiece.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-03 06:21
I personally only use Vandoren reeds. No other commercially available reed has the center (core, focus, gusto or whatever you want to call it) of sound they provide. Some players are having some success with the top Ricos (Grand Concert or the Reserve....can't remember which) but I don't get the same focus from them.
Of course you can get more color (and a few more usable reeds out of a box) out of the Vandoren V12. And for even more core to the sound, you can step up to the 56 Rue Lepic.
But if the question is Vandoren vs. any other brand, there is no choice.
..............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-01-03 08:48
The sad fact about reeds is that as the quality of manufacturing has gone up, the quality of the cane has gone down.
Tony F.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: nellsonic
Date: 2015-01-03 09:23
Like mouthpieces, there is no one right answer. It depends entirely on the individual (as well as the mouthpiece and instrument being used).
My custom Charles Bay mouthpiece works great for me with traditional Vandoren strength 3 1/2 reeds. I've tried V12's and 56's, and they just don't resonate as well for me with this mouthpiece, despite being "more hip". Many of my students use V12's and 56's, as that is what works best for them.
I intend to check out the better quality Rico offerings this year, but I'm really pretty happy with Vandoren traditionals, especially when I keep my Reed Geek and Ridenour ATG system close at hand. Minimal fuss and plenty of good reeds on most days. I will be looking into Legere for those "other" days. We all have those "other" days sometimes, right? 
Anders
Post Edited (2015-01-03 22:31)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2015-01-03 17:31
Tony F wrote:
> The sad fact about reeds is that as the quality of
> manufacturing has gone up, the quality of the cane has gone
> down.
>
Tony, you may well be right. I don't really know how to tell good cane from bad if it isn't green and has a reasonably even grain.
But I've been hearing this about cane ever since my high school days in the early '60s. Ans I have some very old reeds with some pretty awful-looking grain (if that's an indicator) that pre-date V12 and 56 Rue le pic.
Is cane really worse, or is this just something reed players grouse about any time they have trouble finding a reed that works?
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-01-03 18:21
My purely anecdotal experience is that this is the case. I seem to get fewer good reeds in a box than I once did. It may be that my requirements have become more specific, but some of the unplayable reeds I get can not be made into anything other than practise noisemakers. Recently I was advised when buying reeds loose to pick out the one with significant discoloration of the cane, as this indicated that the roots of that particular cane had been in water, thus making for denser cane. I get more playable reeds from Rico/Addario Grand Concert than from Vandoren 56's.
Tony F.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alex K.
Date: 2015-01-03 19:44
See, that's what i think. They're making more money off of worse reeds. But I heard that the darker the grain, the better the sound. Is this true?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2015-01-03 20:19
Alex K. wrote:
> See, that's what i think. They're making more money off of
> worse reeds. But I heard that the darker the grain, the better
> the sound. Is this true?
There's all kinds of witchcraft in circulation about almost everything relating clarinets and clarinet equipment. The same is true among players of all kinds of instruments. Singers, too, have their taboos and their idiosyncratic ideas regarding their voices and vocal health.
The best way to learn about reeds, which are (unless you're using plastic) the "consumable" part of the setup, is to pay attention as you use them. Find out for yourself what seems to be true and what doesn't. "I heard" always begs the question "from whom?" But it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about reeds. They aren't so expensive that you can't do your own field testing. You're doing it anyway as you play, only by giving too much importance to what "[you've] heard" you may miss opportunities for real learning as well as improvement in your own playing results.
You originally asked what others here thought of Vandoren "Regular" reeds and wanted a binary good or bad response. You won't, as you've already begun to see, get a unanimous answer nor will most of the answers you do get be so categorical. You are the best person to answer your own question, at least as far as it affects your own playing. Buy a box or two. Unless you completely mis-guess the strength, they won't be absolutely terrible or totally unusable, even if they turn out not to be your favorites. Then decide whether you want to use them regularly or try something different.
Then, if you like, come back and tell the BB what *you* think of them.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2015-01-03 20:25
Tony F wrote:
> Recently I was advised when buying reeds
> loose to pick out the one with significant discoloration of the
> cane,
Although he didn't have (or give) a reason other than his own experience, Gigliotti told me the same thing back in the late '60s. To an extent, I think from my own playing experience there may be some basis for this at least statistically, though it certainly isn't true that every reed with a highly mottled bark plays better than every one with uniformly brownish-yellow bark.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-03 21:07
To Karl's point, it doesn't matter what I think, it's you doing the playing. I'm only sharing what I think with you so you can compare my "yardstick" of fit to yours to see where they might differ.
Perhaps there was a desire for you to seek some commiseration here over reeds. If so, you've come to the right place. : - )
If your question Alex is "what do you think about the regular vandoren reeds, right out of the box yay or nay?" my thumb is down.
But that is not the criterion I use, nor, if I may say so, one I think others should use. Instead, I see reeds as an unfinished product that players need to learn how to adjust. And after adjustment, my thumb is up on Vandoren.
If "strap on and play" is your goal, I must admit to finding great consistency in quality reeds with the new D'Addario reed products, but my sample size is small, my story purely anecdotal, and all is subject to change over time.
Then again, there's synthetic reeds. I think Legere and Forestone are pushing the envelope of what's possible in synthetics, but for me, they're not quite there yet as compared to a solid cane reed. Others disagree, with very cohesive arguments, and we may all join the synthetic bandwagon as these products only improve over time.
In the meantime, I am, along with many others on the board, a strong supporter of the ATG system of reed adjustment not simply because I feel it helps, but because it teaches the techniques upon purchase. I feel it better than a lot of other stuff out there, but nothing is perfect.
Post Edited (2015-01-03 21:07)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alex K.
Date: 2015-01-04 20:35
I dont mean right out of the box. I mean after a good day of use.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-04 21:20
A reed won't tell you what it 'all about' until it is properly hydrated. This process can take 4-6 days of playing very short duration on the reed and then letting it sit until the next day.
The process should look something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y0Zv3EZ-Ms
If you're reed selection process does NOT look something like this (it doesn't have to be quite this detailed), then you are wasting the reed's time, and you are wasting your time, and you are wasting your money.
Color of the reed doesn't mean much because it's not the only factor. You also have how the individual reed is cut (this is also quite variable). So you must judge each reed on its own merits irrespective of any preconceived idea.
It takes some 'work' ladies and gentlemen.
...................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-05 17:56
Hi Alex:
I'm with Paul on this one.
To me (and I don't mean to be critical), "a good day's use of a reed," is almost a contradiction in terms: especially as it initally breaks in during, say, it's first week of use.
I might find myself playing, even on a broken in reed, for about an hour before switching to another reed in my play rotation. The initial read, mind you, isn't disguarded, it's just put back into this rotation with opportunity to play (and be evalutated) at a future point in time.
I find that such switching, along with keeping my reeds in a humdity controlled environment (more on this in other bboard threads) helps maximize the duration of their good play: a finding shared by others as well.
I'm not claiming I have scientific foundation in this approach (others may), or that resting reeds go through some restorative process--it's just one of those "best practices" techniques that I've found works for me and others.
Now, all of this said, are doing these practices going to find you (or others) more acceptable reeds in a box? I'm not certain. What I do believe though, to Paul's point I think, is such a discipline helps you best identify your best reeds, preventing you from making premature judgements in disguarding reeds that play poorly initially, but in fact have great potential, or saving reeds that seem to play great initially, but quickly succumb to the effects of hydration from normal play.
===
Reeds: has Vandoren gone down in quality or experienced bad periods of cane production since their inception? Some certainly believe so, but I'll tell you what I know for sure.
Never have Vandoren's methods for cutting reeds and assuring quality control been better. Their cutting tolerances, or so I've read from them, are less than a human hair. But the fact is that even within a single reed, (Vandoren or not) there is strength diversity for any particular thickness, that requires player testing and adjustment. Not even Vandoren takes issue with this fact, marketing their own line of reed adjustment products. And I do believe that this staged testing of reeds, coupled with you learning reed adjustment techniques, will maximize the number of good reeds you get out of a Vandoren box.
All this said, what mouthpiece are you playing? I want to make sure, if confirmable, that the Vandoren 4's you use fall within an acceptable range of strength for your mouthpieces specifications (tip opening, lay, length of lay, rail width, etc.)
P.S. I think, in some ways, the discipline Mark Nuccio highlights in the video Paul attached applies MORE to us, and in some ways less. It may apply more because Mr. Nuccio may get his reeds at cost per reed that is substantial lower than ours: motivating us to make every reed count, while on the other hand, most of us don't face the play demands his schedule places on him, and its commensurate need for significant quantities of really great performing reeds, at any one point in time.
Post Edited (2015-01-05 18:09)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-01-05 20:27
I'm with Ricardo Morales (at least, in his old methods in adjusting cane). I honestly don't feel comfortable having 4 boxes of reeds in constant rotation. . That's extremely expensive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3RNzUSYrbo
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2015-01-05 21:47
tylerleecutts wrote:
> I'm with Ricardo Morales (at least, in his old methods in
> adjusting cane). I honestly don't feel comfortable having 4
> boxes of reeds in constant rotation. . That's extremely
> expensive.
I'm not sure of the connection between what he says in the video and having "four boxes of reeds in constant rotation." Apart from the obvious exaggeration (did someone suggest rotating 4 boxes?), I don't think Morales says he only uses one reed at a time (again, when he used cane). I don't think good adjustment technique and rotation need to have anything to do with each other.
He also doesn't say a break-in process isn't useful in prolonging the life of a reed. He says you shouldn't postpone making balance adjustments because "the clock is ticking" from the first time you play a reed. But it will not be stable during its first two or three playing sessions (even longer for some pieces of cane), so often re-adjustment is needed through the process. Some players make a fetish out of long break-in processes in which they do little or nothing about balance until the reed is well seasoned (and presumably stabilized). I think Morales is arguing against that approach.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-05 23:30
Ok, looking at Nuccio's approach, it would be obvious that he does have quite a few reeds in rotation at any time. He also states that he uses one reed for one piece during one concert series (that's about 3 or 4 days).
As I implied, I think Mr. Nuccio's approach is on the more extreme end of a "thorough break-in" process, but the foundation is clear......you cannot pull a reed out of a box (even in the individual hygro-pacs) and expect to know how it plays. That is NOT how reeds work.
My routine is 5minutes a day for about 4 to 6 days which is 20 to 30 minutes on a reed over that amount of time. I don't think that is asking a lot. Also, once the reed IS hydrated, it is only then that you know how hard (or soft) it is and which side is harder (or softer) and by how much. How would you start balancing a reed without this information unless you are clairvoyant?
I only put this out there so that all y'all can get as much out of your reeds as you can. If you ARE getting great results just pulling and playing, just imagine how much better your results would be with a little more break-in.
..............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
