 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: AClarinet
Date: 2014-12-24 20:17
I have a Kanter mouthpiece and a Rovner Versa with V12\D'Addario Reserve 3.5+ or 4 but I feel that my sound doesn't have enough focus when I play loud.
I like open and long faced mouthpieces because they help me to project but do you think that metal ligatures, like Rico X or Bonade would help?
Thank you
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-12-24 21:12
I do think, all other things equal, that metal ligatures do allow me to project my sound better, even if it comes (again at my perception) at the expense of brighter left handing clarion notes.
These are my perceptions, YMMV (your mileage might vary). I don't come with scientific proof such as sound meters or harmonics analyzers. In reality, such ligature changes might not provide the attributes I describe.
My biases: I am not a fan of frequent ligature change. Others on the bboard attribute more value to ligatures that I do, and I respect that.
Now....if playing louder, without compromise to sound is truly what you're after, please say so, and I can explore things you can do that will help you with that despite your setup.
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Author: AClarinet
Date: 2014-12-24 21:28
I feel that more when I'm playing louder but my goal is to achieve a focused tone that carries and not a 'big sound'.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-12-24 22:22
Focused tone's what your after....okay. Here's my laundry list of items I think you should address. It's likely not exhaustive, and others may disagree on some of my items on this list. You may of course be doing some of these things already. All physical activity is best cleared by a physician first.
* Concentrate on using the cheek muscles, and their ability to snug the mouthpiece , in addition to the up and down strength of your embouchure, as a method of producing good tone. A mouthpiece needs pressure on it from all sides. This will likely also cause the mouth's upper palate to expand: a good thing. Speaking of which...
* Try double lip embouchure. Feel how it expands the upper palate. You don't have to switch to double lip playing if single lip is your thing, but when you return to single lip, keep that feel of the palate you had when playing double lip in mind, and try to approximate it. Again, I think the cheek muscles will help here.
* I am not a fan of the wind-o product, featured recently on this board not because it fails to be useful, but because I think that other solutions exist that will accomplish the same thing cheaper. If it were more reasonably priced, I'd own and use one. It helps exercise the cheek muscles, something a $1 item on electronic auction (not to mention practice) will do as well. I mention it because the wind-o people also use ballons to help strengthen the lungs. Consider such an approach as well. Apply controlled pressure to balloons. Don't blow as hard as you can (it's not good for the sinuses), but blow hard, and sometimes fast too.
* Practice an aerobic activity outside of clarinet play.
I can't stress enough the importance of cheek muscles in producing a centered tone.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-12-24 22:24
I'll submit my latest half-baked hypothesis on ligatures.
I think that a ligature's function is to hold the reed uniformly and firmly down on the MP table, but without so much pressure that it damages the reed. There is probably a fine line between too little and too much pressure. If the MP table has a concavity or "French dip" cut into it, this complicates matters, so I haven't mentally modeled what happens in this case ...
I am beginning to think that the body of the reed (the uncut part) should not vibrate on it's own, (flexing and bouncing around in Lord knows what modes), but be as much as possible, a part of the MP itself. (Early MPs and reeds were carved as one integral piece).
A string ligature has the distinct advantage of almost perfect and uniform fit for all reeds, because each time you wind the string (assuming your winding technique is good), your are constructing a unique and custom ligature for each reed, conforming exactly to each reed's geometry. A string does this more so than even the best designs or metal, plastic, leather, cloth and rubber, IMHO.
Now, the question of the best material for the string ligature: The material chosen might need to be elastic enough to apply a slightly springy pressure, to allow for reed swelling, but not so elastic that allows the reed's body to perform it's own dance in any sort of major way, independent of the MP. Of course, with plastic reeds, swelling isn't a concern due to water absorption, but surely they have some expansion with increasing temperature ...(?) I suspect that plastic reeds can be bound tighter to the MP table than cane, with fewer ill effects.
I use the analogy of ligature designs that don't do a uniform and solid job of holding the reed down, the same as loose mounting hardware for a diving board. A lot of snap and springiness of the diving board is lost in a poor attachment point.
I've been trying less elastic materials lately, such as Kevlar cord and trying to compare to more common materials for string ligatures. A good study is due on this matter ...
So, what do you think? Do we really need all these myriad of ligature designs when the simple and best solution has been with us for over 100 years?
Tom
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Author: AClarinet
Date: 2014-12-24 22:51
Thank you all for your help !
I don't think that the Versa with the plates can be just like a metal ligature. Today, I tried a broken Bonade that I have (!) and it seem to close the sound a little bit.
WhitePlainsDave, those exercises to circular breathing (with straw) , help with cheek muscles ? My teacher is always saying to close it a little more, maybe a easy explanation is to do not open the throat so much.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-12-24 23:17
I used to use a Versa-X. It certainly worked, but my teacher felt that it was damping my sound a bit, and when she had me try out her VD Optimum, my dad (who was sitting at the other end of the apartment) called out that I sounded better. That was about the most extreme difference in a ligature's sound that I've experienced; usually it's just a minor difference, probably barely perceivable to others. (I imagine I was using the Versa with the leather over the metal; not sure if the difference would have been as extreme had I been using the metal on the reed.)
I feel that metal ligatures may give just a bit more "ping" to the sound. I've tried fabric ligatures that project well too, though. My 2nd favorite ligature is a string ligature like TomS describes.
One of these days I might try to record myself using a bunch of different ligatures just to see how much of a difference there really is.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-12-24 23:18
AClarinet:
While learning circular breaking with a straw will exercise your cheek muscles, I believe the transfer over to embouchure is limited enough that it is not enough...not that you implied that it is.
The mouth is all but closed when such force is applied, and I can't help but think that the pressure I am talking about would pinch the straw like two walls on either side of the straw coming together, preventing you from doing the very blowing that such techniques for learning circular breathing depend upon.
I have no issue of course with you learning circular breathing or not. I'm just saying that I believe it a separate skill from what I am talking about, with limited skills transfer.
If I may entertain what might be a poor analogy, if I were teaching you how to bench press weights, and started you, rather than with your hands at the height of your chest, as is convention, at a much heigher distance where your arms were almost fully extended upon start, I suspect that we could agree that in failing to perform the full range of motion, that we didn't excercise the chest muscles as well as we could have in this exercise.
Well same applies to starting the exercise of those cheek muscles at the aperture size of a straw. It's too small; too close to almost a closed mouth and inconsistent with the mouthpiece's size.
Think of it this way. I have a pressure hose to which I have two attachments: a wide ellipse, or a small circle. Which will give the greatest pressure? Right, the small circle made from squeezing those cheeks in when you play.
Throat:
Funny you mention this. I find that relaxing my throat helps with fast tonguing. Still more, why would you want to restrict the airflow through this action before it leaves the mouth, too increase the pressure?
That doesn't work for me. It may (legitimately) work for you or others.
Practice long tones the way I described until your cheeks have had it. Then take a rest. Aim for a clear sound, free of changes to pitch, color, and clarity of sound.
See Tom Ridenour's videos on Youtube for more on this.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-12-24 23:33
....and Tom: we're on the same page for the same reasons.
I just wonder if the benefits of string is worth the effort, especially since it's not uncommon for me, and colleagues I know, to slightly move a reed during breaks between playing it, to adjust for overall strength and left side/right side relative strength...something an adjustable ligature facilitates.
I've heard people profess the importance of the whole reed vibrating. But doesn't the business end of that reed (the vibrating part) have the greatest chance to do its thing (vibrate) if its base is so well adhered to the mouthpiece, that to the physics and acoustics way of seeing things, it approaches becoming part of the mouthpiece, as you speak of?
Cord....I think Silverstein may have a good idea in their use of a cord born of space age technology, with reliability and known stretch metrics, that according to them, was used to lower things on space vehicles. But I question the benefit the ligature in its entirety provides, compared to its cost.
Mason line, or the fluorescent colored line available at the box stores, for marking property lines, might be too thin, but also has by design, the properties for limited stretch.
Post Edited (2014-12-24 23:35)
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Author: AClarinet
Date: 2014-12-24 23:35
Its sure helps with tonguing, that's my experience too.
My problem is only when I play loud because my dad, who ias a clarinet teacher, told me that in last orchestra concert ( 8th Schubert) my piano was really good and clear.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-12-25 00:13
The "stretch metrics" comment with regard to the Silverstein sounds as though it is born from not actually having any experience with the ligature. The cabling does NOT stretch, and it sounds like a metal ligature NOT a string ligature. It's a decent ligature, but it is NOT what one would assume by looking at a photo.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-12-25 02:26
True Paul..I haven't played the Silverstein, but you misunderstand my sentiments, which, in fairness, I probably could have made clearer.
After professing my opinions on the need to stabilize the reed base against the mouthpiece, in so doing, allowing the business (vibrating) end (rather than the base) of the reed to do its maximum vibrating, I proceeded to recommend two types of cord known for their ability to not easy succumb to stretch.
Silverstein's use of the same cord as that used to lower a sky crane on Mars, complete with that cords limited stretchability (read: the lowered Mars rover would be apt to do less bouncing during its decent on to Mars from that crane) was the feature I thought would make it useful to those desiring good materials for a string ligature, and why I cited it as my first example.
http://www.silversteinworks.com/ligature/
By that principle, I felt that the materials out of which mason line is made, (although mason line is too thin I think) also designed with limited stretch so as to mark property lines, might also be a good starting point for string ligature material, and serve as another example.
My adversity to strechy cord comes in its ability to more absorb shock than transfer it to the items connected to it: in this case the mouthpiece and reed.
Reading that you find the Silverstein more like a metal ligature, given its limited ability, like a metal ligature, to change shape once tightened to a mouthpiece, I guess when I think about it, doesn't surprise me at all.
Happy Holidays.
Post Edited (2014-12-25 02:39)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-12-25 03:13
I did take several pictures of it. I use the BG Duo Ligature, but do try other products so that students can have a choice to decide (with my help) what works best for them.
From Rovner to Bonade, and others - have students playing all of em.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-12-25 03:49
WhitePlainsDave: It's quite easy to adjust the position of the reed with a string ligature on. The bigger issue is if you need to take off or replace the reed, as removing and re-tying the ligature takes a good deal longer. That's one of the reasons I usually don't use a string ligature, despite how much I like the sound.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-12-25 05:03
Some Kevlar line may have a core of cotton or other material, but the strength and important characteristics lie in the woven covering.
Ditto on ease of adjustments ... string not so tight that it prevents nudging the reed +/- 0.25 millimeter. Maybe a device to take tension off all the hand windings. Some sort of widget that sticks to the top of the MP (double sticky tape), and the string could be wound over it. The device's profile could be lowered at the flip of a lever and loosen the whole shebang slightly. Best of both worlds. OK, mechanical engineers/clarinetists, that's an idea for a new accessory!
Because I use mainly Legere, I don't have to worry about a weird string ligature MP cap to help keep the reed hydrated, and don't have to wiggle reeds too much, other than moving it higher on the MP as it softens during play. So, I don't use a MP cap, usually.
You have to practice winding ligature string just like other clarinet skills to get your speed and accuracy up to par.
I do keep a Rovner at close reach, in case I am really pressed for time and only have 5 seconds to swap reeds, because I still use some blue-box and V12s ... gotta try Vandoren's latest offerings!
Carbon nano-tube filament, anyone? Ultimate non-stretch material?
Tom
Post Edited (2014-12-25 05:32)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2014-12-25 06:00
>>but I feel that my sound doesn't have enough focus when I play loud.<<
According to Brad Behn, "The ligature must be metal."
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com/ligatures/ Second paragraph, first sentence.
Two sentences later Brad states: "The sound focuses better when the ligature is of a solid material."
Both Brad Behn and Clark W Fobes carry the same metal ligature line.
http://www.clarkwfobes.com/ligatures.html
(Currently Clark is sold out while Brad has them in stock.)
If two prominent mouthpiece craftsmen carry the exact same line of metal ligatures, perhaps their expertise is revealing something to investigate.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-12-25 06:27
I respect both men, highly, they are giants in their field.
It might be that some metal ligatures actually reinforces the reed body, reducing it's flexing and limiting it's nebulous little dance on the MP table. I think most of the design goal to to intimately and inflexibly (but allowing for reed swelling, in someway) attach or couple the reed without damage.
I'd suspect that non-stretchy string might perform the same function of holding the reed down and allowing vibration in unison with the MP, but in a more reliable way.
Gosh! I hope we aren't "milking a mouse" in this entire subject.
It's Christmas Eve ... and I'm gonna have a glass of wine and help my wife finish wrapping gifts! (Maybe the wine should come after the wrapping ...)
Everyone have a wonderful Holiday Season!
Tom
Post Edited (2014-12-25 06:38)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-12-25 07:32
Mr. Blumberg's experience with the Silverstein ligature has motivated me to review stuff I learned once in a basic course on rigging (lifting with ropes, etc.).
I seemed to recall that any bends to rope (or cord) can significantly reduce its strength, as confirmed at sights like this:
http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/Technical%20Bulletins/TB_ARB_Rope%20Selection%20Usage%20Retirement_MAY2013_WEB.pdf
(see "Bending Radius")
I wonder if such bending forces were/are at play in this cord, as it wraps around a mouthpiece. I wonder if others experienced Mr. Blumberg's issue.
Max: I've never used a string ligature. I note its ability to allow minute (read: MY NOOT) reed position changes on the mouthpiece.
Dan: I wonder if the mouthpiece men speak to their product lines only. What would one do in the case of a Vandoren Masters mouthpiece, which requires a leather or string ligature, unless you buy the Vandoren metal ligature designed to go with it?
Today, while switching mouthpieces, I accidently put a metal ligature on a Masters mouthpiece. You know what, it worked just fine....didn't hurt the mouthpiece either.
(subtle message: not so sure the Masters Series M/O ligatures are the only metal ones that will work with the Masters Series mouthpieces, despite Vandoren saying otherwise.)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-12-25 07:48
It came apart at the connection to the metal (where the screw would be).
Not sure what holds it to that.
Do like it though, and have one for Sax.
The one that broke, did that while a female senior high student was borrowing it. She did not torque it exceptionally tight, "it just snapped while assembling".
If that happens, grab your backup quickly.
I do like it though!
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-12-25 10:05
The Ishimori ligature that Clark Fobes and Brad Behn sell is great. My teacher recently switched to one from a VD Optimum, saying that because it's even more "ping-y" it projects better over a large orchestra. I tried it briefly during a lesson; it feels similar to the Optimum, but it's an even clearer, more focused sound with lots of overtones - definitely "ping-y" as she described it. If I had the money to purchase one, I would.
Dan Shusta: The MO Series ligature is the metal Vandoren ligature he was referring to.
Post Edited (2014-12-25 10:07)
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Author: AClarinet
Date: 2014-12-25 16:13
How much it costs that Ishimori ligature ?
And what do you think about the Rico one ?
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2014-12-25 19:36
AClarinet,
You can click on either of the following links to find out the pricing. On both websites, they are priced exactly the same.
The differences between the two suppliers are:
1) Clark is "sold out" while Brad has all clarinet ligatures "in stock".
2) Clark has them for all clarinet models (Bb, Eb and Bass) plus Soprano, Alto, and Bass saxophones while Brad has them only for Bb, Eb, and Bass clarinets.
3) Clark has no sound descriptions pertaining to each different metal while Brad goes through extensive descriptions as to what one should expect from the different metals involved.
4) Clark has a "no refund" policy while Brad does have a trial policy.
http://www.clarkwfobes.com/ligatures.html
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com/ligatures/
As to the Rico metal ligature, please click below for some possible useful information:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=347135&t=347117
to WhitePlainsDave,
Although I have no proof, I sense that Clark did his "research" as to why the Ishimori is the best ligature to offer his clients. Brad, on the other hand, goes through a very descriptive process as to how he arrived at the Ishimori to be the best ligature for his clients. Since their reputations are at stake, IMO, both will offer only the best to their clients.
As to the Vandoren Master mouthpiece, I got stuck on the phrase "which requires a leather or string ligature". I simply had difficulty understanding why they would design and sell a metal ligature for a mouthpiece "which requires a leather or string ligature". It's still a bit confusing to me.
Post Edited (2014-12-25 19:41)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-12-25 21:10
Music Phd candidates:
Perhaps this has already been thoroughly researched, but I suspect that it's barely been touched upon:
I would love to see a thesis on the affect that ligatures truly have on [clarinet] play.
Highly competant players could set their reeds to where they want them on the mouthpiece, don blindfolds, and have a set of unknown researchers correctly install "ligature X."
All players would play all ligatures, while a second set of blind* researchers (unknown to the first, so as to make the tests double blind) and blind knowledgeable listeners could evalute tone/etc., both from a subjective and a scientific accoustical and decibel perspective. Things like harmonics, clearness of tone at all ranges of the instrument could be noted, and tests could be conducted not only in a controlled space, but concert hall conditions as well.
My proposal is only a starting point on the test's parameters. Things like how many copies of the same model ligature, and how they were randomly tested would still need to be ironed out.
I would be interested in seeing the correlation if any, between variables like desired sounds, and either players or ligatures.
* "Blind" is being used in this threasd in a clinical sense. Truly visually impaired individuals were neither meant to be rediculed, nor expressly excluded/included from the study.
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Author: AClarinet
Date: 2014-12-26 00:41
I tried a old and broken Bonade and the experience was very interesting. It doesn't hold the reed well because it's broken but the sound is focused and very equal between the registers. The versa with plates seems to be bigger but difficult to control and a little bit spread.
The bonade was silver and the sound when I played louder was really intense.
What do you think?
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-12-26 05:13
White plains Dave-
If I decide to go all the way to my doctorate, I will certainly reserarch the sonic effects of ligatures! One must consider the effects in different acoustical environments, as well as different mouthpiece materials, and perhaps even differences in exterior dimensions.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-12-27 05:32
I think the end of the "cable" is just thicker where it inserts into the metal bar.
WOW Dave, your student mustn't know her own strength !!!! OR her brother wanted to see if he and his dad's tools were stronger than the Mars Rover (if this happened out of your eyesight).
You buy the diameter of Silverstein that is best suited for your mouthpiece size (there are a number of sizes to chose from for clarinet and you can submit custom sizes as well). The diameter of the cabling doesn't 'stretch' but you have the screw to tighten it by pushing the metal 'bar' AWAY from the mouthpiece, thus tightening the cable like a ship's rigging.
................Paul Aviles
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