 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2014-12-08 20:57
Hi All,
Thanks for all the great answers on my question about whether a Yamaha YCL 221 III or Ridenour RCP-925e bass clarinet would be my best purchase choice. However, one more question please.
The Ridenour and all professional bass clarinets usually have a double register key. Is such a mechanism something that is a must to have on a bass clarinet? On my current bass, I have just a single register key but can get all over the instrument pretty well.
I will be doing solely concert band, pit, and some limited ensemble work on bass.
But am I missing out on something by not having double register keys?
Cheers,
Hank
Post Edited (2014-12-08 20:58)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-12-08 23:49
If your bass is doing everything you ask of it then there is no problem.
Inherently however having a separate vent for the lower part of the clarion register and another for the upper tends to make a bass much more flexible when going over the break.
A single vent is a big compromise, even on a soprano clarinet, but the compromises become more severe with the lower pitched basses and even on some altos.
I have played a few single vent basses and usually found that the mid stave B is rather stuffy and slow to speak.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2014-12-09 00:36
Unless you're planning to audition for a second-tier (or better) symphony orchestra, you'll be too cool for school with a decent single-register-vent bass. I got all the way through college on a single-vent Noblet (which was then bought by the clarinet professor upon my graduation). No worries, Dr. Hank.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2014-12-09 00:56
Quote:
I have played a few single vent basses and usually found that the mid stave B is rather stuffy and slow to speak.
This is exactly my experience on my 221-II, and why my next bass will be an upgrade to a double vent system. I only get a limited number of opportunities to play bass over a year and up until now the long B wasn't that much of a problem, but I recently had to play some bassoon cues which clustered around the bridge and trying to get that B to speak was really frustrating. I'm definitely thinking about a low C Ridenour — but not without taking a trip to Texas.
EDIT:
Reading David Spiegelthal's post, maybe I should just try playing a lot of 221s.
Post Edited (2014-12-09 00:59)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2014-12-09 08:33
Hi All,
This is exactly the advice I was seeking.
Thanks. DS, no worries about even a 4th tier orchestra (but I did get an invitation for a local orchestra just this evening - I graciously refused). Norman, I thought the mid-stave B lack of response was that I did not have my chops firmed up yet and/or the long mechanism is a real challenge.
Kilo, I think a 221 would be a side-step for me. I better wait until I have some extra cash and consider a Ridenour.
Hank
PS I am having a real blast on bass clarinet BTW.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-12-09 10:50
>> Unless you're planning to audition for a second-tier (or better) symphony orchestra, you'll be too cool for school with a decent single-register-vent bass. <<
To me the double register vent is an important improvement and I'm not planning to audition to any orchestra... or anything at all.
BTW the bass clarinet with the worst response in the clarion I've ever played had a double register vent
Post Edited (2014-12-09 10:51)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-12-09 21:37
The note that usually suffers on some basses with a double speaker mechanism is the upper register F# - it can kick or not speak at all if you let your guard down.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2014-12-10 00:23
Given the choice, and the price being equally close enough, an automatic double register key would always be my preference but that would also depend on the quality of the instrumet. A good single register key bass would be better than an inferior double one. By advise is always "Try before you buy".
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2014-12-10 07:52
ESP,
Have you experienced any adjustment issues with the double register key mechanism?
Thanks,
HRL
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2014-12-10 23:06
Not with the newer models I've tried. Mine is an older model Selmer and the first few years I needed to learn to make adjustments but once I realized what to do I didn't have any other issues. An example, when a cork would wear down a bit it would make it difficult for one of the keys to close tight so I would put a piece of tape on it and it would be fine. Once my repairman, from years ago, put a thin piece of tubing on it, his wife was a nurse and had plenty at home, instead of the tape it solved the problem because it would never wear down. The coordination between the registers does have to be perfect so adjustments may need to be made to assure that happens. And I had to find the perfect placement of the neck.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2014-12-11 00:21
ESP,
My tech has used some very thin teflon tubing at various places on both my bass clarinet and on my saxes. Your comment about learning over time to add a bit of tape has saved me many anxious moments as well. An emergency repair indeed but "in an emergency..."
Thanks,
HRL
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2014-12-11 23:41
I've concocted an experiment (flawed, for sure, but interesting) in which I've assembled two independent upper joint/neck assemblies, one with a single register vent and the other with a double-vent system, to mate with the same lower joint/bell assembly for direct comparison of the two systems.
The unwilling volunteer for this experiment is Son of Frankenhorn, a barbaric but fine-playing contraption comprising (from top to bottom) a generic Chinese neck with upper register vent, a 1920s-vintage H. Bettoney bakelite-ish plastic upper joint, a 1930s-vintage Kohlert wood lower joint, and a homemade curved low-C extension terminating in an alto clarinet bell. This thing is ugly! But it works amazingly well, I've played several orchestra concerts and a couple of shows on it (it's a very compact design, fits in a standard low-Eb case despite the extended range). The Bettoney upper joint has a double manual register key system which takes a bit of practice to get used to and can be inconvenient in fast passages going between registers, but is very simple and reliable.
For the experiment I overhauled a standard Leblanc Vito "resonite" upper joint, with the minor improvement of slight tonehole undercutting, and a generic 'solid' neck (no register vent of course) that seems to work well with the instrument (I'd prefer an actual Vito neck but don't have one). I had to modify the lower tenon to accept a standard tenon cork and mate to the Kohlert lower joint, and slightly modify the bridge key, but that's all.
Just finished the Vito upper joint last night and played both versions of the complete instrument today, for long enough to get some first impressions, which are:
- The overall resistance and sound of the two beasts are surprisingly similar; the single-vent version (Vito upper joint) is not generally more stuffy or resistant anywhere in its range than the double-register vent version (Bettoney upper joint).
- Also suprisingly, the long clarion B/C of the single-vent version are not noticeable sharp (nor stuffy); the only intonation flaw seems to be some flatness (around -10 or -15 cents) in the middle of the clarion register, particularly the F through G. The lower clarion is pretty well in tune as are the upper clarion and altissimo.
- The lower register of the single-vent version is pretty well in tune throughout, though there is some lack of clarity and instability in a few of the notes around B through D. These problems of course have nothing to do with the register vents as the latter are all shut, but likely are caused by a bore mismatch or less-than-optimum neck on the Vito version.
Not sure if any conclusions can be drawn from this, but it's a bit of fun for your amusement.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2014-12-12 01:19
Bravo, David Spiegelthal! Maybe you could post a picture of your contraption with Fritz playing a Bach Cello Suite.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-12-12 02:18
David, how do they compare when playing relatively loud legato intervals from low register to clarion register (i.e. playing the 12ths) - low E to "throat" F - and opening the register key? No tongue or attack, just legato and loud.
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Author: ErezK
Date: 2014-12-16 23:43
@Norman Smale
You mentioned that the middle B on your 221II is stuffy and slow to speak.
I also have the 221II and my experience is different, there is a *very slight* stuffiness with the middle B, just like with my soprano R13 A and B clarinets and like with most clarinets I have tried through the years, the middle B is slightly more resistive in response but far from slow to speak. I suspect there is a leak in your 221II.
There single/double register should be taken as part of the equation of what makes a quality instrument. The quality of the rest of the implementation is very important as well. FWIW, the Bb lever, operates a different cap than the register cap, I am not sure if it qualifies as double or single register. The mechanism that controls which cap should open/close is similar (though greatly simplified) to the one I have seen in high-end selmers.
Nitai (clarnibass) mentioned in his Amati review (on his website) a very important point - the quality of construction is extremely important, especially with bass clarinets, because they can go out of adjustment easily and at that point it does not matter how brilliant the acoustical design is (or isn't) - the instrument won't play end of story.
As far as the 221II, the build quality, IMO, is of very high level. The only issue I have had with it in the 6 years of owning it has been one rod being overly-tightened in the factory.
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