 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: LFox
Date: 2014-12-15 21:31
My middle-school daughter just started playing the clarinet this year and loves it. She is playing a 1955 Buescher that we borrowed from family. The band director listed as required equipment a 5RV Lyre mouthpiece and a Rovner ligature, so that is what I purchased. She (The Buescher was not a recommended clarinet model, but he hasn't complained about that.) Just last week, after about 4 months of playing, I noticed that she isn't positioning the reed properly. She said it is easier for her to play when the reed is positioned below the tip of the mouthpiece. To me, that means that she needs a different mouthpiece. I have researched mouthpieces until my head hurts, and am leaning towards getting her an M30 Lyre, but I would love some advice.
I have been researching clarinets, thinking of "upgrading" her to a wooden clarinet because her band director prefers wooden clarinets, and I have also thought about getting her a newer non-wood clarinet. I had no clue until I saw the recommended instrument list that you could buy different mouthpieces, ligatures, barrels and bells. I also didn't realize just how many different clarinets there are. (I played a plastic Vito something with its stock mouthpiece and ligature all the way through high school.) There has been way too much information for me to process. Would a new mouthpiece solve her problem, or do I need to look into getting her a new clarinet?
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2014-12-15 21:46
I would like to suggest that you find a GOOD private lesson teacher. A good mentor will provide proper help in sorting out your daughter's equipment needs.
Perhaps the mouthpiece isn't the issue - maybe she is playing on the wrong reed.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: nbclarinet
Date: 2014-12-15 21:47
The reed should be positioned slightly below the tip of the mouthpiece, the position can be slightly tweaked to account for the inconsistency of individual reed's strength. The 5RV is a fine mouthpiece for someone who is starting out. In a couple of years she may want to look into other options but for now I wouldn't worry.
Reed strength may be the factor that she should adjust. For a beginner on a 5rv lyre, id say anything from a 2 1/2 to a 3 1/2 should work well, this of course depends on what brand and cut of reeds she is using
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-12-15 21:48
The reed should be positioned to where just a sliver of the mouthpiece shows. You can stick the reed higher, but that is just to make soft reeds play a bit harder.
An M30 Lyre and a 5RV Lyre aren't really that different in the facing, just in the chamber, from my experience. The M30 Lyre plays like a dark 5RV Lyre I think. I've played both for a long time. If you're convinced and her teacher is as well that she needs a new mouthpiece, I highly recommend the new Reserve mouthpieces. However, I can't really diagnose any playing issues without hearing her play and seeing her play.
Don't rush getting a new instrument. . I played on a student instrument up until I started college, and won a scholarship with it, along with principal spots in many honor bands. The player is the most important variable by far.
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2014-12-15 21:49
It might just be a reed issue. What reed is she using? It could also be the mouthpiece, there is no reason for the band director to make everyone use the same equipment. That mouthpiece won't work for everyone.
AAAClarinet
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-12-15 21:50
I second Mr. Behn's advice here. If your daughter really enjoys playing and wants to make more progress, a private teacher would help in leaps and bounds.
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Author: LFox
Date: 2014-12-15 22:22
She is currently using Vandoren 2 1/2 reeds. She preferred those over Rico. I keep repositioning her reed, but she grumbles and slides it back down. My daughter gets a good sound out of her instrument and is progressing quickly. Neither he nor that clarinetist that comes to the school once a week to work with the beginners have talked to her about the reed misplacement, and she plays for the band director at least once a week to pass off required passages, so I'm guessing they don't hear anything wrong. Once she gets beyond what I can help her do, I will look into getting her private lessons. For now, I don't want her to get in the habit of positioning the reed incorrectly. If the consensus is that it will just take time and effort rather than a new mouthpiece, then that is what we will work towards.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2014-12-15 23:13
Ms. Fox,
I third Mr. Behn's advice and second tylerleecutts advice concerning getting a "good" teacher. I inserted the word "good" because my first private teacher (around 52 years ago) unfortunately taught me some bad habits which later in life proved to be a great demise as to my inability to play anymore. Please, take your time and find the best teacher that you can. Having a "clarinetist" visit and playing for the band director on a weekly basis, is, in my opinion, simply not enough. Your daughter could be developing some bad habits which might prove to be very difficult to change as time goes by.
Clarinetists usually move the reed downward away from the tip to make it easier to play. This is because the air pressure will hit closer to the tip of the reed which is thinner and hence makes it easier to vibrate the reed and produce a tone.
A good teacher should be able to resolve this issue very quickly.
Post Edited (2014-12-15 23:14)
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2014-12-16 00:20
"below the tip of the mouthpiece" How far below? Perhaps she isn't doing
anything wrong.
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Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-12-16 01:24
She may play for people, but the people listening may not catch any problems. I see this a lot when someone is doing something wrong and the band director doesn't catch it. I agree with Bennett when asking "How far below?" she may just have hard reeds vandoren can be very inconsistent. Also I wouldn't jump to buying a new clarinet even if she seems dedicated. 4 months is not a very long time and a decent mouthpiece is really the only upgrade I would suggest ,but she already has a 5rv which is a pretty good mouthpiece.
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2014-12-16 01:29
Again a quality teacher is very important. But with specific reference to reed positioning - Vandoren mouthpieces have wide enough tip rails to allow some variation in reed positioning. You may well be able to achieve quality results with as much as half a millimeter of different positions down, and even more - up.
I would ask firstly - does it sound good with a lower reed positioning? Bottom line is that the reed's tip must make contact all the way across the reed's tip. That is it. You can go as low or high as you like - in fact many people position their reed's tip above the mouthpiece's tip to make a soft reed play harder.
It is good to learn the causes and effects of a reed's position on the mouthpiece. First develop a general beginning point and then float up or down to "fine-tune" the playing experience as necessary. Observe the differences in sound and feel, and start to make your own mind as to what works best and why.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: LFox
Date: 2014-12-16 03:04
She didn't bring her instrument home today, so I can't attach a picture. However, I do know that the whole tip rail is exposed. I'll just keep working with her on the mouthpiece she has for now.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-12-16 05:14
I was going to let it go, but..........
My placement advice is to make sure the entire tip rail is covered by the reed (I make sure there is a sliver of reed BEYOND the mouthpiece). I heard the same advice from David Shifrin at a recent master class. He asked the student how much she paid for her mouthpiece. Upon receiving the answer, he said, "then you want to make sure you're using all $300 worth."
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-12-16 08:47
That saying is also used for how much mouthpiece to put into the mouth. However, I tend to place my reeds a sliver lower if they are too hard.
It really all depends, but I definitely put enough mouthpiece in.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-12-18 06:50
Ms. Fox:
I’d like to focus on the clarinet change option you contemplated, as posters seemed to have already given attention to your subject matter title, and its mouthpiece-centric angle. I will though talk about mouthpieces too.
I would highly recommend that before making any swaps of clarinet, mouthpiece notwithstanding, that you have someone in the know, ideally a good private teacher, examine the clarinet for issues.
It’s likely, even if the instrument has issues, and given your daughter’s entry level play I might guess not, that a good repair tech could resolve them.
Do note the general “don’t change much yet,” status of most posters. You may not realize it, but you were lucky enough to have one of the foremost names in clarinet mouthpiece makers, Brad Behn, address you post. Even he’s right now opting for a ‘don’t go changing the mouthpiece quite yet’ stance.
The Vandoren 5RV Lyre is an excellent mouthpiece period, not just, but often especially for beginners given its small tip opening (distance between reed and mouthpiece tip). Couple that with your daughter’s urge to want to push down an otherwise extremely light (relatively speaking) reed (which she may do without realizing it because it’s somewhat of a solution for slightly hard reeds-which is how she may see that 2 ½ reed), and I don’t think any of the 30 series (M30, M30D, etc.) mouthpieces from Vandoren, with their larger tip opening (read: all other things equal, usually more open mouthpieces are harder to play and control, and require softer reeds) will make things better.
As we’ve been talking about on this board recently, tip opening is only one of many factors regarding the amount of jaw pressure, or the ease with which a mouthpiece plays. Still more, the more open mouthpieces often have more flexibility, which can produce issues for the budding player who needs to operate within the often smaller window of variation that a closed tip mouthpiece often provides. Mr. Cutts' former post about the lay, or slope of an M30 and 5Rv mouthpiece where it contacts, and then diverges from the reed being similar, (and I respect his findings) would still find us in agreement (as the specifications are published by Vandoren) of the M30 having a larger tip opening.
As far as wood clarinets go, here’s the skinny. In truth, clarinets have and are being made of many materials, many of which have the capacity, I think, and many others agree, to sound great, not the least of which being hard rubber. I’m not saying a plastic clarinet is likely to sound as good as a wood one, but please know what I believe to be more the reason why: It’s not the plastic, IMHO, per se, so much as plastic has generally been associated with the same entry level clarinets for which workmanship is often shoddy in an effort to cut costs, and keep profits high.
To restate, put plastic in the hands of a fine clarinet craftsman, and a potentially wonderful instrument could, at least in theory be made. People will disagree with that, but many of us lean in the direction of believing that once a decent material (plastic, hard rubber, granadilla wood, etc.) is chosen for clarinet production, sound is more about the skill of the instrument’s designer and player.
So wood is somewhat of a surrogate for quality when compared to other materials, barring, IMHO, Ridenour’s Hard Rubber models, Buffet's Greenline instruments, and maybe some other models as well: but both, I think, are excellent, if not also too pricey for you to consider in the near term, even if the locus of your daughter’s problems could be isolated to her current instrument, and it being deemed by those in the know as unrepairable or not practical to repair.
The reed’s the cheapest thing to change or reposition, and note if improvements occur.
Post Edited (2014-12-18 16:47)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-12-18 07:34
If she is comfortable with the whole of the tip rail exposed, then I suspect that she is using reeds that are too hard for her. Try buying a couple of Vandoren 2's and see how she goes. I second the need for a competent clarinet teacher, it doesn't sound as though she's getting the help that she needs with the present one.
Tony F.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-12-19 18:32
If you use Legere (plastic) reeds, you will find that they soften during the course of playing an hour or so ... Therefore, you can start out with the reed slightly low and re-position higher on the MP as it softens. This can also apply to most cane reeds.
Moving any reed slightly left or right or up and down can have fairly significant effect on how it responds and sounds. A fraction of a millimeter can make a difference and you have to find the best playing position for each reed.
Tom
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-12-19 22:37
I may be reading "Tom's" comments incorrectly, but it I say that this 'shifting' for reed performance is an emergency measure that I would reserve for walking out on stage with a reed that suddenly, and unexpectedly decided to play too weak (or too stiff, or too much to one side).
Ideally, you want your reed center, covering the most side and tip rail as possible. If there is a balance issue as you break-in the reed, you need to take care of this with reed rush, a reed knife, a reed wizard, whatever means you have available to you BEFORE you get to a rehearsal or performance. Same goes for a reed that is just a tad too strong. If the reed is too weak, you can do a modicum of clipping, but this must be accompanied by thinning out the very tip of the reed and re-balancing.
................Paul Aviles
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