 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-11-20 17:15
Hi all.
I'd like to better understand the "throat" Bb key by posing a hypothetical question if I might.
Suppose I charged you with the mission of making a clarinet where the "throat" Bb sounded infinitely better than it typicaly does when using the left hand's thumb and pointer finger only, even if doing so had to render some/all other notes on the instrument lousy sounding in all ways (pitch, color, clarity, etc.), but reasonably capable of being produced.
What changes might you make to the instrument, in terms of things like tone hole position and size? Would you offer different answers if I told you that you could design the clarinet with or without need for a register key?
I don't seek here methods to make this note sound better with alternate fingers. That knowledge I'm good with.
I'd just like to understand better the tradeoffs that were involved in having the register key serve the dual process if you will, of "overblowing" notes (i.e. dropping harmonics when the register key is pressed, so as to produce a note that's a 12th above the note generated with the same fingering, only without the octave key pressed) AND turning a throat "A" into a throat "A#/Bb."
I must admit that the use of acoustical math to explain this, where the "only numbers on the page are the page numbers," (an old math teacher's way of describing math books on advanced subject matter) might throw me.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-20 18:04
Selmer and Leblanc have in the past offered the option of improved throat Bb mechanisms that either involved both the speaker tube and an extra vent for the Bb to open at the same time or to completely separate the function of the speaker vent and the throat Bb vent so neither both of them are open at the same time (either one or the other is open at any given moment) which involve the same fingering as the regular throat Bb so anyone can use it without having to learn a new fingering.
Depending on how the mechanism is made, the throat Bb vent is either allowed to open when the thumb is off the thumb ring or the throat A key is open - the latter is probably the better option even though it may be more costly to produce.
If the throat Bb vent is to be a separate one from the speaker tube, then it will be in the same distance from the top of the instrument and the same diameter as the Bb trill key tonehole (or maybe slightly larger in diameter if a bush is fitted to prevent water getting into it), but in a different radial position on the joint.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2014-11-20 19:03)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2014-11-20 18:12
WhitePlainsDave wrote:
>
> What changes might you make to the instrument, in terms of
> things like tone hole position and size? Would you offer
> different answers if I told you that you could design the
> clarinet with or without need for a register key?
>
Are you, as this seems to suggest, limiting the range of possibilities to changes in the opening that traditionally functions as the register vent?
If not, there have certainly been linkage schemes invented that open a tone hole which is lower and larger than the vent tube, generally the one that already exists, that's covered by the second from the top rh trill key. I have a Patricola that does a very nice job of this - when only the rk and A key are being pressed, it holds the vent closed and opens the side tone hole. When the rk is pressed without the A key (as it is with any note in the second register), the register vent opens instead. There was, of course, the old Mazzeo system, which opened the side tone hole when A and the rh rings were pressed at the same time.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-20 18:16
Karl, can you post some photos of this mechanism?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-11-20 18:33
Hi Mr. Krelove:
I'm sorry sir I didn't make this clearer but NO, for what it's worth, I was not initially limiting the changes that could be made to the instrument to merely tone hole size(s) or position.
Your comments about the Patricola I'm aware of thanks. And Mr. Peryagh's comments about the Selmer and Leblanc, while not known to me prior, don't shock me either. But they do lead me to ponder another question regarding why such mechanisms are more the exception than the rule on the instruments of most makers.
I'm going to assume that the cost of adding such features werent' worth the effort when the musician can always
* actuate the second to top right side vent to produce a nicer sounding throat "Bb" on slower passages,
* use harmonic fingering when passages are faster and/or the right hand is committed to return to, or come from notes on the lower joint, making this leap to the previously mentioned side key difficult, or
* simply do the best to make the throat Bb sound nice when only actuated by the pointer and thumb fingers of the left hand, and otherwise incorporated into fast enough passages that the throat Bb's less than lustre sound is concealed by the speed of the note changes.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2014-11-20 22:51
I just tried to take a couple of pictures, but they came out very blurred because of the close distance I tried to use. I have to go back and figure out how to use the Macro mode on my camera.
I was, it turns out, wrong about how the mechanism works. It's a C clarinet that I only use occasionally, so I forget from one use to the next how the thing is put together, only remembering that it accomplishes its task quite nicely.
The linkage opens and closes an extra tone hole, smaller than and just beneath the Bb trill tone hole. When you finger thumb+A, the register key stays open and the extra vent opens as well, giving you an additive effect of the two vents. The extra vent is held closed by the linkage when the A key isn't open. The result is a clear-sounding, in tune Bb. There is a regulating screw on the rocker end of the extra key, which looks like it allows adjustment of its clearance height. I imagine the major downside of this assembly is that I'm not sure a standard pad would fit - it looks slightly smaller than the pad on the register key. My instrument has what looks (without unmounting the key to look closely) like cork, which could easily enough be shaped to fit.
Once I figure out the camera, I'll try to post a couple of photos of it.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: saxlite
Date: 2014-11-20 23:36
I own a Patricola eefer with the extra throat Bb key as described by kdk. Works just fine, doesn't add much to the instrument in complexity. Given all the hoopla surrounding the poor performance of the standard setup one wonders why this small additional amount of mechanical stuff doesn't become standard on all clarinets??
Jerry
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2014-11-21 00:49
Looks like the same idea, but the physical placement is different.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-11-21 06:59
My references tend to go along with Chris' initial response. They point out that, on larger instruments (alto, bass, etc.) there are separate tone holes for the register key to use when it is used for a throat Bb vs. changing register. The reason given for soprano clarinets not having that provision is that the necessary parts would be too small for precise adjustment and good reliability. As a result, the size and placement of the register vent is a compromise between the two functions.
Some of the posters in response to your question seem to be indicating that there are some soprano clarinets with such mechanisms. I would be interested in their evaluation of the explanation offered by my references.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2014-11-21 10:52
Luis Rossi offers to different approaches to this, though unfortunately I don't know the mechanical details. Here is his response in answer to my inquiry about them:
<quote>
Regarding the 2 options for the Bb mechanism: some people can not get used to the required LH thumb action for the model 1. They are only a few, I must say. With this model , if you do not clear well the thumb ring, then it affects the action of the Bb vent hole.
The model 2 is attached to G# key, so it does not involve the LH thumb. But the spring for G# key has to be a bit strong, in order to close the whole mechanism. Still playable, of course, I am mentioning you all details.
Some players prefer model 2 for using alternative fingerings for the altissimo. One example is : if you want to play top E sharper by uncovering the LH thumb chimney, with model 1 is not possible because the Bb vent hole is attached to the thumb ring and will also open. But with model 2, it is possible, since G# key will remain closed.
I used both of them with good results.
</quote>
I don't have pictures of these mechanisms, but I think that Fernando Silveira has one of them on his new amaranto instrument. Maybe he would post a few pictures.
B.
B.
Post Edited (2014-11-21 10:59)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-11-21 12:44
Any mechanism that would open the second from top trill key or a new tone hole for Bb, either manually or automatically, would do what you asking.
As far as tradeoffs, they are moastly subjective, but compromising enough for companies not to use them as a standard mechanism.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
