 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-11-19 02:01
Friends,
Has anyone came across spec information for the Vandoren Masters Series family of mouthpieces?
I tried my teacher's CL5 some time ago and loved it! Now, 6 mouthpieces later, I am looking to order one. The only problem is, I can't really make an informed decision because the facing information is not readily available!
From my own understanding, the CL4 is most comparable to the M13/M13 Lyre, the CL5 is inbetween the M15 and 5RV in opening, and the CL6 is most comparable to the M30/B40 Lyre range. Is this correct?
Needless to say, I need a new mouthpiece- but my happy spot in facings seems to be around 1.02-1.05, medium long to long. However, I have no patience for the M13 Lyre (at least ones that I've tried), and the M15 is hit or miss for me.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-19 02:26
In some ways I like the fact that Vandoren has left this a bit of a mystery. The ONLY way to figure out what you like is to try it. Since you already tried a CL5 there really is no guess work here.
For my taste the CL5 is too open and I enjoy the CL4. If you had success with the CL5 I'd think the CL4 would be too close a facing for you. There is also a CL6 which is billed as a bit of a "hybrid" between the two. I'd try that one as well if I were you. Woodwind Brasswind will only charge a small restocking fee for the ones you send back.........try 'em out!
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-11-19 02:51
Paul,
I can't really make an informed decision on a product based on only a rough estimate of how it performs. Even with some experience with it, without information on the facing length and curve (less really on tip opening), I can't really match reeds to the mouthpiece without going through several different cuts.
Also, Woodwind and Brasswind has stopped their trials on mouthpieces for this year until the New Year. If I get this mouthpiece or an M series, it would likely be from Amazon.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-19 03:10
The problem you face then is that even if someone else can measure the mouthpiece for you, the measurement that you get depends on the type of gauges used and quite honestly how they are read.
I don't really think Vandoren has any intention of publishing a spec on this line any time soon.
And just my two cents........ I'd find SOMEBODY else who actually sells instruments:
Weiner, Muncy, somthin'
Amazon is for non-muisicians
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-11-19 04:15
How is Amazon for non-musicians? They sell the same stock as everyone else, as well as the option of buying from Muncy or WWBW with your Amazon account.
I would hope Vandoren publishes this info soon. . I'm not going to play reed roulette just to match reeds to it. Otherwise, I'm just going to get an M15.
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-11-19 08:16
Yes- but not the cut. If I had a general facing length from them with the tip opening, getting the perfect cut would be child's play. There's no telling how accurate the numbers where when they gave them at ICA- they likely changed by now.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-19 12:20
I personally don't let details get in the way of enjoying the experience of playing the clarinet. So maybe I find myself "flailing around" a bit from time to time, but I also find combinations of things that work that may not normally be recommended by the manufacturer.
that was the first point
Another issue being missed here is that there are A LOT of factors that influence the response of reeds on a mouthpiece: rail thickness (thicker = more resistance), baffle configuration (concavity = more resistance), volume of the tone chamber (smaller = faster response). And then there is the affect of the combinations of all those on each other. I was fortunate enough to spend a few minutes with Brad Behn and he really opened my eyes (and EARS!) to all sorts of acoustic nuances and the reality of there not being just one way to get at a certain characteristic you want out of a mouthpiece (probably Vandoren's motivation in this instance?).
second point
and........ the Master's Mouthpiece is the ONLY mouthpiece I have ever played where my wife had made an unsolicited comment of approval (she's a professional singer) saying it had an "Oooo sound" (as in the word moon).
So what's the point?
You cannot 'spec' your way to exactly the way you want to sound. I wish that you could add up a bunch of numbers and come up with exactly the sound you're looking for (or response, or durability or whatever) but it doesn't work that way....at least not for me.
Oh and I was just being snippy about Amazon. But really, wouldn't you rather work with a music dealer than a second rate Alibaba?
................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2014-11-19 12:32)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2014-11-19 18:32
Paul is right about not letting the details get in the way of playing. I have very often found that there are particular reeds, ligatures, barrels or whatever that are "supposed" to work in various ways, but due to variations in equipment, personal preference and playing style one often finds different results.
Some mouthpieces play very differently than the numbers would suggest. Just knowing facing and length may give a starting point, but there are SO many variables in rails, chamber, baffle, bore, etc that affect playability.
I have played some mouthpieces where the maker suggests certain reeds that have not worked at all for me. While it may seem tedious to try a variety of reeds, it is really the only way to know what works for you. While the suggestions of Vandoren or anyone else are a reasonable starting point, it is merely a starting point.
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-11-20 01:49
Paul wrote:
"Oh and I was just being snippy about Amazon. But really, wouldn't you rather work with a music dealer than a second rate Alibaba?"
Don't you realize that Amazon ships THROUGH the best music dealers? Brook Mays, WWBW, Sam Ash, Muncy, Wiener Music. . . To name a few.
Furthermore, you all are speaking in simple terms of "resistance". It is impossible to deny that the facing curve facilitates a certain cut or curvature of reed in order for it to vibrate at its fullest from the start to the end of the curve. Then, you take the inherent resistance of the mouthpiece from the tip opening, baffle, rails etc. , and select a range of strengths.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2014-11-20 02:34
Which is why the Vandoren site lists 3 different cuts and the strengths that they feel are appropriate to each mouthpiece.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-20 03:20
When it comes to dealers I am a bit extreme in my loyalty. I WANT to be able to talk to Phil Muncy or Dave Kessler. When you order from third party vendor, it is not out of charity to us that they offer their service, they take a cut and in the process make staying in business for your vast list of smaller dealers much more cut throat. I literally will often take the hit and pay 20-30% more to help a local brick and mortar out. In the end this isn't charity on my part, it is my hope that we all won't be left with phone order taking ninnies that have no clue what we are talking about (this spells trouble when the order goes south, or worse, when there is an issue with the merchandise). When this DOES happen there is much gnashing of teeth.....on this very site!
And actually I am saying that the 'resistance curve' is not specific to a certain cut of reed. What then do you do with Vandoren reeds on another manufacturer's mouthpiece? I don't want to come off as a crotchety old man picking on the future clarinetists of the world (even though that's what I'm doing). I am trying to help you avoid future frustration and/or allow you to experience an epiphany or two down the road!
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: sax panther
Date: 2014-11-23 15:47
"I tried my teacher's CL5 some time ago and loved it!"
"I can't really make an informed decision because the facing information is not readily available!"
Maybe I'm missing the point...but if you've already tried it and loved it, isn't that all the information you need to make an informed decision? If it does happen to be outside of the facing parameters you've gone for in the past...what does that matter if you really like playing it?
Regarding matching a reed to it..what reed did you have on it when you tried your teacher's CL5?
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-11-24 01:18
The reason that I appeared to like it was that it was close to what I happened to be playing on at the time. Now, that is outside what I would consider comfortable for articulation and tone.
I don't even remember what reeds I was playing on then- that trial was almost a year ago.
For the last time, I cannot make an informed decision on a mouthpiece with no information on its dimensions and design. Vandoren's subjective description of the models is simply not enough for me to play reed roulette for a month on that mouthpiece. I would much rather get an M15 (which happens to be in the ballpark of facings for me)
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