 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2014-11-18 18:45
I am starting to learn the Schumann Fantasiestucke Op73 and have 2 bits of clarinet music, one in A and one in Bb
Is one easier than the other? Does one resonate better on a clarinet? Or is there another reason for the two parts?
Music with A and Bb parts that I've previously come across is normally meant for an A clarinet but has a Bb part for those without an A (and it's obvious that the A part is better/easier). It's not so clear with this
So, A or Bb
Many thanks
--------------------------------------
The older I get, the better I was
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-18 18:52
A or Bb depending on what you prefer - there's no right or wrong here.
I did hear of an instance where someone had been criticised for performing this on 'the wrong clarinet' (they played it on a Bb).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-11-18 19:27
Recall the best practical reason for why "A" and "B flat" clarinets exist. Their semi-tone pitch difference allows music to be written in key signatures with reasonable numbers of sharps/flats, by writing it for either the "A" or "B flat" instrument, based on which one would face more manageable key signatures given the concert key signature(s) of the music.
As far as which is easier to play--the issue of sharps and flat notwithstanding, I suppose some could make the argument that the slight increase in weight of the "A" clarinet over it's same make and model "B flat" counterpart, might account for some extra work during a long performance. And maybe, all else considered, the "A" clarinet might take ever so much more air pressure given its slightly larger size, but I suspect these factors are small compared dealing with more manageable key signatures when music of certain keys is scored in key signatures much more aproachable for one of the two aforementioned clarinets, but not the other. People normally don't associate a different sound with the "A" clarinet, given its 1/12th tone/size difference from a "B flat."
I suppose purists might also sight that certain pieces of music are scored for notes too low for the Bb instrument (Mozart Concerto), or beyond the normal range of the "A" instrument, if double high "C" notes are used (Spohr Concert) when scored for Bb. But in truth, pieces like the Mozart Concerto were actually scored not merely for an "A" clarinet, but one with the lower range found in a basset clarinet.
I say play it on the instrument you prefer as long as you don't have to skip notes outside the instrument's range.
Or better, switch off instruments, mid performance, like Vegas' Wayne Newton. : -)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDQX2RXPe88
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-11-18 19:33
Schumann wrote them for clarinet in A; a Bb part is supplied by some publishers for people who don't have an A clarinet.
We don't have Schumann's manuscript of the Fantasiestücke from which the first edition (1849, Carl Luckhardt, Kassel) was prepared. However, the manuscript of an earlier version, titled 'Soiréestücke', survives in Paris. The first movement of this is written for clarinet in A; the remaining two movements appear in the score at concert pitch, with the instruction that they be transposed for the A clarinet.
The earlier Soiréestücke was published by Faber Music in 1985, and it's interesting to compare the two versions. Alan Hacker, editing them, thought that the earlier version was superior; I feel the contrary, except that in the Soiréestücke the final two chords of the second movement are missing: I agree with Alan in this case that the transition from the second to the third movement is preferable.
(I always try to persuade the pianist to leave the chords out in the Fantasiestücke too – and sometimes I succeed:-)
Tony
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-11-18 19:34
Sorry, I couldn't resist--the following being said in pure mock format.
"Upon rethinking your subject title, I think I speak for a large number of people here when I say that given the option to play flat or in key, playing in key is always best." (hardy, ha, ha)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2014-11-19 00:07
I've played it on both clarinets at different times. Although I believe it was written for the A clarinet in it's original form I don't see a problem playing it on either. When I've played recitals and was not using my A for any other work I'd perform the Schumann on the Bb. At other times I played it on the A. Although there is a slight difference in the tone quality of both instruments I doubt that anyone in the audience ever noticed. Do what you want, you won't get struck down.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-11-19 00:31
Chris Peryagh wrote:
>> A or Bb depending on what you prefer - there's no right or wrong here. I did hear of an instance where someone had been criticised for performing this on 'the wrong clarinet' (they played it on a Bb).>>
The words 'right' and 'wrong' in this context either have no meaning – in which case you can do what you want; or they distinguish between obeying Schumann's instructions and disregarding them – in which case, you can also do what you want.
Schumann was quite specific in his choice of instrument, not only in his chamber music but in his symphonies and concertos, where he sometimes asks for a different instrument for just a few bars. So, I prefer to honour his wishes.
Ed Palanker wrote:
>> Although there is a slight difference in the tone quality of both instruments I doubt that anyone in the audience ever noticed.>>
That may be true. But, _I_ notice.
>> Do what you want, you won't get struck down. >>
This is true. But you may get criticised if you go against what Schumann wrote.
And, being casual about this matter often goes hand in hand with being casual about other aspects of the music.
"Do what you want" is ultimately the truth of the matter. However, I'd say you have to take seriously the process of FINDING OUT what you REALLY want; which is a harder row to hoe, as Bastian Balthazar Bux found out in Michael Ende's "The Neverending Story".
Tony
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-11-19 04:23
Tony -
I'm sure the clarinets of Schumann's time were different from modern instruments. Have you played any originals or reproductions? I would think that the difference in tone quality would be greater than that between a modern Bb and A.
It's my understanding that #1 is often played on the Bb to avoid the two tricky upward slurs, Eb5 to Eb6 and E5 to C#6. These are much better on German system instruments. Also, I believe there's a low E3 somewhere, which would be out of range on the Bb.
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-11-19 04:58
>> I'm sure the clarinets of Schumann's time were different from modern instruments. Have you played any originals or reproductions? I would think that the difference in tone quality would be greater than that between a modern Bb and A.>>
I've never played these pieces on clarinets of Schumann's time; but I have played all the symphonies and other orchestral pieces by Schumann on my Ottensteiner/Seggelkes. I'd say that the difference between Bb and A is similar to the difference between Bb and A on modern instruments. And actually, that's true of the classical instruments too.
I did once play the Fantasiestücke in concert on my A=430 Tauber/Bangham basset clarinet; that was just because my A=430 Simiot/Bangham A didn't work as well, I thought. The rest of the programme was Weber and something else with an early piano.
>> It's my understanding that #1 is often played on the Bb to avoid the two tricky upward slurs, Eb5 to Eb6 and E5 to C#6. These are much better on German system instruments.>>
Using T Ab oxx/oxo Eb (no speaker) or T Ab xxx/oxo Eb (no speaker) – depending on your instrument – works rather well for Eb6 on the French instrument, I find.
>> Also, I believe there's a low E3 somewhere, which would be out of range on the Bb.>>
The lowest note is Bb3 on the A.
Tony
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Nessie1
Date: 2014-11-19 13:08
I think I'm right in saying that Jack Brymer in his book, The Clarinet, said that the Schumann "should never be attempted on the B flat" although I don't have my copy to hand as I post. However I suspect that even he would have accepted that a young/newish player with no A instrument might play them on B flat for the experience of learning an important piece.
Vanessa.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2014-11-19 14:36
As always, it's fascinating to read everyone's views. I've decided to learn the music for A clarinet but...
...learn it on my Bb clarinet as my A is out of service until I can save up some money to get it fixed. It sounds a bit bright but seems to fit nicely under the fingers
--------------------------------------
The older I get, the better I was
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-11-21 01:47
I could imagine a piece which had climactic sustained notes which would either be throat Bbs or clarion long pipe Bs, depending which horn you played it on. (And I'm not going to think hard enough to tell you which would be which.)
And I don't care how well you play, or what mechanisms your horns have, or what your name is, those 2 notes will not sound the same*. And depending on the mood of the piece, one or the other might be preferred.
The composer should know good notes from not so good and write the melody lines accordingly, so you should end up with a piece that sounds better on A, or better on Bb. Even if only marginally so. And not necessarily the easier horn to play it on.
*If any of you disagree with this, please post audio samples of your throat Bb from the one horn and clarion B from the other, recorded back to back in the same setting, perhaps a range of dynamics with an sfz- and challenge us to tell you which is which. I bet it's easy.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-11-21 02:09)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-21 03:01
The B-A#s in the first movement aren't a problem if you happen to have a full Boehm, therefore keeping the ends of the phrase in the same register.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-11-21 23:46
Stan wrote:
>> I could imagine a piece which had climactic sustained notes which would either be throat Bbs or clarion long pipe Bs, depending which horn you played it on. (And I'm not going to think hard enough to tell you which would be which.)
>> And I don't care how well you play, or what mechanisms your horns have, or what your name is, those 2 notes will not sound the same*. And depending on the mood of the piece, one or the other might be preferred.
>> The composer should know good notes from not so good and write the melody lines accordingly, so you should end up with a piece that sounds better on A, or better on Bb. Even if only marginally so. And not necessarily the easier horn to play it on.>>
And Chris Peryagh wrote:
>> The B-A#s in the first movement aren't a problem if you happen to have a full Boehm, therefore keeping the ends of the phrase in the same register.>>
Because the readers of this BBoard may not have access to the successful players within the profession, I'd just like to make a couple of comments:
The fact that a Bb on the A clarinet is not easily made indistinguishable in isolation from an A on the Bb clarinet, or that a Bb on the Bb clarinet is not easily made indistinguishable in isolation from a B natural on the A clarinet doesn't mean that the 'difficult to make resonant' notes are necessarily bad IN CONTEXT.
People who think that you should always play the notes THAT ARE THE BEST suffer from a limited view of music. Some notes need to be 'good', others are better left 'bad'.
I think that Stan understands this. But his comments might be interpreted to mean something different.
And note the caveat 'easily', above. Every good player I know can produce an acceptable Bb in almost all contexts. (Of course, that's at least partly because they control many aspects of that context themselves, by how they play what comes before and after.)
To Chris Peryagh: I don't know any established professional who routinely plays on a full Boehm Bb instrument; and further, I certainly don't know any clarinet player who routinely and successfully sidesteps the standard fingering for Bb (perhaps with resonance additions) by using the overblown low Eb.
You do the list a disservice by suggesting that as a course of action to the innocent reader here.
Tony
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-11-22 00:07
I really just wanted to say that pretty much anything played a half step differently on a clarinet pitched a half step differently, even if the same concert pitches, is not going to sound the same. Acoustic instruments are not that uniform note to note, and we actually like that- it's part of their charm and character. Yes we work very hard to minimize, but the slight variation that remains is a good thing.
Compare this to 2 singers who try to match pitch. If they actually did, it would sound like 1 voice twice the volume. The slight mismatch of pitch is what makes 2 better than 1. (Today we use digital delays and choruses for the same reason.)
So if you are choosing which pitch clarinet to use for a given piece, and in the absence of any guidance from the composer (or even with it), I think you have to at least ask the question whether how the important notes fall leans the choice one way or the other, independent of how easily each plays. Though in most cases I guess that easier playing probably means better sounding.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-11-22 05:45
Stan wrote:
>> So if you are choosing which pitch clarinet to use for a given piece, and in the absence of any guidance from the composer (or even with it), I think you have to at least ask the question whether how the important notes fall leans the choice one way or the other, independent of how easily each plays.>>
The position we are usually in is not to be 'choosing which pitch clarinet to use for a given piece'. We're usually subject to your 'guidance from the composer'.
They tell us what to do.
Now, many people have argued here that 'composers' (1) don't care, (2) don't know.
I put 'composers' in quotes because clearly it depends on the composer. On the whole, I'm less inclined to follow the instructions of a contemporary composer as to which instrument to use than I am to follow the instructions of someone like Schumann, for reasons I've already given.
But, that's a generalisation. I might change my mind in a particular instance of a contemporary composer.
See, what I think of as my fundamental job in playing my instrument is to understand which are the important notes to be highlighted – as you so rightly say – and to highlight them. Equally, my job in playing my instrument is to understand which are the notes that need to be less heard, and to make sure that they don't stick out.
If I really CANNOT do this on the instrument specified, then I might START to imagine what could happen on another instrument.
But because I'm quite a good player:-), I find that, with work, I get better at playing that Bb on the A, say, because I've imagined what it might be like as an A on the Bb.
And that's what I think y'all here should aspire to, too.
Tony
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
