 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David Renaud
Date: 2014-11-11 02:36
Hello
Having just acquired a new Tosca Bb , I'm enjoying the centered tone and evenness......
I have pitch under a microscope on the new instrument.
I prefix this with, I really do like the Tosca, it tunes better then my old R13.
A couple questions I'm curious about.
This instrument was in storage of a couple years, and not played.
Thus the wood is somewhat dry, compared with what it will be under normal usage.
Thus , is it normal that the general pitch rides a little sharper, a couple cents?
The top end is quite even, but riding a tinny bit higher then my other with the same barrel.
Also, the bottom end, low f-e is a tinny bit flatter the Tosca then on my other horn, minus 15-20 on the R13, but minus 20-25 on the Tosca. With care I can voice it much closer, and with the alternate F key on Tosca, I can nail the F pitch. The low E remains relatively flat, more so then on the R13.
As it "breaks in" , re-humidifies, what is the expected change in the bottom.
The old horn has many quirks in intonation, the Tosca much more even, and a fantastic centered and flexible tone. I not complaining. It's true ,I do need time to adjust my voice to the new bottom.
The negotiation has posed these questions for me though.
1) Tuning trends upon break in, or generally upon sitting dry horns vs. heavily played horns.
2) Effect in bottom vs top, and in general. Any patterns tend to be common.....
Curious what the collective experience on this has been, for those that take note of such things.
Thanks in advance
Dave Renaud
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-11 05:08
I have not experienced a "break-in" tuning issue with clarinets. I would say it IS the tuning that ultimately decides which horn to chose.
We had a thread recently were some technical things to look for were mentioned such as spring tensions, key heights, leaking etc. For my money ALL that can worked out, but intonation is what it is and should be the overriding deciding factor every time (once you've found horns that respond the way you want and are "fun to play").
That said, the clarinet is a huge bag of compromises with intonation. If you put other considerations ahead at point of purchase, there is not much to worry (as long as the horn is in the ballpark regarding internal pitch). It is now more a matter of adapting yourself to the horn. Two to six weeks and all should be good.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2014-11-11 05:24
Find some very pure almond oil. Oil the bore quite well with it. I would even oil as much of the outer wood as I could safely apply to. Q-Tip into the tone holes. Let it soak in well. The Almond oil is the best for the Grenadilla wood.
Ken Jarczyk, Woodwind Guy.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-11-11 06:08
David, the thing is, it's going to do whatever it does regardless of what any other similar clarinet does in any given set of conditions. So, if I were dealing with the situation you're describing, I'd just play on it and wait for it to do whatever it will. Once it has been played for a few months, you'll know, not how other clarinets may have changed, but how this one actually has changed. If any tweaking seems indicated, that's the time to consider it. Until then, I wouldn't do anything in any case, no matter what Toscas as a rule *tend* to do.
By the way, if it were I in your situation, I would not apply oil inside or out (but especially outside, unless you're going to remove all the pad-bearing keys). I know there is a contingent among clarinetists - we have this discussion periodically - that strongly favors the use of bore oil on a routine basis even in clarinets that have *not* dried out, and that members of this group feel that anytime the wood might actually be dry from disuse it should definitely be oiled. I am writing this to advocate for the other side of this question of oiling. As you play, the wood will gradually absorb moisture. I would probably heed the advice of the old-time repairers and avoid playing the instrument for long stretches of time over the first two or three weeks (this ship may already have sailed) - not because I can give a serious rationale for it but because it's a piece of "accepted wisdom" that has no down side other than, maybe, forcing you to do some of your playing on the old R13. If you've been playing the clarinet already for a couple of weeks, this is no longer especially important.
Karl
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-11-11 10:48
In the early 90s, I bought a new-old-stock R13 which was made in 1971. While it came with a 66mm barrel, it tuned best with a 64mm barrel at A440. After using it for a couple of years, it raised slightly in pitch to where it tuned best with a 65mm barrel which it stayed at, even today. Good luck!
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Author: David Renaud
Date: 2014-11-11 18:01
Hello
Thanks for the input, some interesting notes thus far.
For clarity. The overall intonation is very good, and was a factor in choosing the instrument. But, being new, and my being a professional piano tuner technician as well as professional woodwind player, I am asking myself questions I have not addressed as seriously beofore.....
I hypothesize that a dried out instrument has "shrunk" in a manner measurable in thousandths of an inch.....? I also hypothesis that this would make the instrument very slightly sharper when dried out?
Wes noted that his instrument went slightly sharper with age. Perhaps in addition to changes with wood humidity content there is also an additional factor of slight shrinkage with age, driving an instrument slightly sharper?
The flat bottom E--F notes indeed represent a universal challenge in design and performance on all clarinets. The alternate F fingering on the Tosca is a major improvement. Perhaps the low e bugs me more simply because now the Low F is so much better? Still 20cents is Great deal to my ear. The Backun bell with the voicing groove does improve this somewhat.
All the above comments are questions more then statements. I'm very interested in full time players experience and observations with this negotiation as instruments "break in" or " re-humidify". and as they age. Interesting discussion.
I have some extra old bells. I am tempted to take one of these old bells I don't care about and ream it a little more open to see how it effects of Low E and in turn the related B.
More thoughts? I'm just really interested and paying attention to this right now. Also, I will adjust to the horn. The low F correction key is great.....
Will report back on any measurable observations, and the bell experiment.
Cheers
Dave Renaud
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2014-11-11 19:31
David Renaud wrote:
> ...
> I hypothesize that a dried out instrument has "shrunk" in
> a manner measurable in thousandths of an inch.....? I also
> hypothesis that this would make the instrument very slightly
> sharper when dried out?
> ...
wood doesn't shrink significantly along the grain, only across, making the bore a little narrower and possibly making the tone holes smaller. So, if anything, it should go a little flat rather than sharp.
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Author: David Renaud
Date: 2014-11-11 20:12
Interesting comment.
Agreed wood shrinks much more across the grain.
Not sure about tone holes getting smaller. In piano keys, in the dryness of winter, holes in the wood get larger with the key wood shrinkage, key pins and bushing holes become looser. With summer humidity, keys expand, holes get smaller and tighter upon the pins, not larger.
So although the bore dimension change you describe sounds correct, there is an inverse relationship with a hole in the wood.......
I am aware the whole subject I pose is a complex question......
Post Edited (2014-11-11 20:14)
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2014-11-12 14:36
Interesting. The bore definitely shrinks when the wood dries out. I know that from experience. I also know from experience that piano actions can jam up in damp conditions. So, you may well be right about tone holes getting bigger with drying but, try as I might, I can't visualise how that works.
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