 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: derf5585
Date: 2014-10-29 23:52
I took it to be repaired. They said it was not repairable. Thoughts?
fsbsde@yahoo.com
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-10-29 23:57
There's rarely a thing as "unrepairable" just a matter of cost.
What make/model/value of clarinet do you have.
Many case of wobble can be improved by simple fixes even if these are not as good as a full professional repair but more info is needed to advise further.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-10-30 00:39
What is it about the joint that a new cork won't stop the wobble? Sometimes the end of the tenon is rounded and a cork won't take all the wobble out, but it should improve. A rounded tenon can be fixed, too, but then Norman's point about cost may come into play.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-10-30 01:08
You can't cure a wobbly tenon with more cork - the tenon will either have to be sleeved or the rings remade and an end cap fitted to make it a good wobble free fit in the socket without the tenon cork in place.
The tenon cork is simply acting as the gasket to ensure the joint is airtight and to apply so extra pressure to the socket walls to keep the joints held together - it's not there to add bulk to the tenon or prevent it rocking which it can't do due to the sponginess of the cork.
How bad is your tenon for it to be deemed not repairable?
What make of clarinet is it?
Is it plastic, ebonite or wood?
Is it new or old?
Has it been repaired before?
Is the tenon cracked?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-10-30 02:05
I wouldn't normally take issue with anything you write about clarinet repair and maintenance, Chris, because I respect your knowledge and experience. But if the tenon cork is actually worn too thin, it can cause wobble, and if that's the source of the movement, a new cork of the right thickness will fix it. I just had a wobbly middle joint fixed. A new cork settled the wobble (and the two sections' coming apart as I played the clarinet).
If it isn't a worn cork, then your advice is exactly right, but a cork replacement is a much less expensive first attempt at a solution.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-10-30 02:57
If the cork is worn and the tenon rocks, then the tenon isn't a good fit to begin with. Tenons should ideally be a good fit in their sockets - neither wobbling nor binding, so its a very fine line between a good and a bad fit.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-10-30 09:12
Your repairer probably can't repair it. Maybe they don't know that it can be. The tenon itself needs to be fitted and there are many possible ways to do it. It is definitley repairable.
>> to make it a good wobble free fit in the socket without the tenon cork in place. <<
Hmm... at least 99% of clarinet tenons have at least a tiny wobble when without cork. I don't consider that in all of these cases the tenons need anything repaired, but it is not wobble free. It is wobble insignificant, since it is not felt in any way after corking and doesn't affect anything. IMO it is the degree of wobble that determines whether anything other than a new cork should be done.
By the way to have a firmer cork, instead of using very thick cork that is too squishy, I use two layers, first a firmer material, followed by thinner natural cork.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-10-30 14:47
After the cork recess has been cleaned up measure the diameter of the recess and that of the socket, the difference should ideally not exceed 1.5 mm.
If it does then a thin layer of thread can be wound evenly across the socket and glued in place to reduce the size. Probably a difference of 1 mm would be preferable to allow a thinner firmer cork to be fitted typically I would use a 1mm thick cork in this case.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-10-30 15:41
The middle tenon on all Boehm system clarinets is the one that has to be the most secure due to the linkage (or linkages) that cross it to ensure they're in perfect regulation. If the joint rocks, then the adjustment is compromised.
Alto, basset horn and bass clarinets also need the lower joint tenon to be a solid fit in the bell socket to ensure the bell key closes in regulation with the other keys and also for player comfort if using a floor spike - a loose fitting bell will rock causing the whole instrument to feel unstable while playing.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2014-10-31 02:41
One solution is to use 2 layers of cork. First goes to the level of the tenon. The second, very thin, wraps the entire tenon. Tricky to do and they don't always last as long.
Steve Ocone
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2014-11-02 22:35
Attachment: Brymer.jpg (161k)
„...without the tenon cork in place... tenons should ideally be a good fit in their sockets - neither wobbling nor binding“. I know Chris P's opinion is shared by other qualified experts- but on the other hand with my own (older) instruments when newly overhauled I frequently see the corks protruding at least some millimeter fractions over the tenon wood. And the same, even more prominent, on a photo (see above) in Jack Brymer's „Clarinet“, German edition Bergh 1978. Some craftsmen even give the tenon cork a profile with a slight bulk in the middle, tapering to zero toward the edges.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-11-02 23:30
I too sand my corks into a barrel shape.
A wee bit of play between tenon and socket is unavoidable, but that doesn't make Chris' observations any less valid. Too much play will result in a wobbly connection no matter how good the cork.
--
Ben
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-11-03 01:07
The cork must project a small distance above the wood shoulders else it could not be compressed when assembled to provide an airtight joint and sufficient friction to keep the joints together.
How much to project is mainly governed by the quality of the cork (suppleness and compressibilty) and also by the depth of the tenon groove. A deeper groove requires more cork above the shoulders to compensate.
Yes some people do like a barrel shaped cork but in my experience a nearly parallel cork but with bevelled edges is more satisfactory.
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Author: Gregory Williams
Date: 2014-11-03 01:12
Lohff and Pfeiffer were able to rebuild a middle tenon for me in stainless steel on an R13 clarinet that had a similar problem to yours. The clarinet has a new stainless steel socket and tenon. I think it was about $350. I'm very satisfied with the quality of the repair.
There was some difficulty in shipping and my original case was lost in the process, but they credited me the cost of a new case, so everyone was made whole. I believe the original idea was to hand carry the clarinet to Denmark, and ship it back without a case. It worked out OK in the end.
Greg Williams
Minnesota Orchestra
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-11-03 08:49
>> How much to project is mainly governed by the quality of the cork (suppleness and compressibilty) and also by the depth of the tenon groove. A deeper groove requires more cork above the shoulders to compensate. <<
Yes, which is why I often use a thin (sometimes as thin as 0.3mm) layer of rubber cork under the natrual cork, if cork thicker than about 1.2mm is necessary.
>>Yes some people do like a barrel shaped cork but in my experience a nearly parallel cork but with bevelled edges is more satisfactory. <<
I agree. Sometimes it doesn't make a difference, but basically the more cork there is between the tenon and socket, the firmer the fit. A slightly thicker barrel shaped cork can have the same amount of cork compressed in total, but this also means the socket has to "climb" over a hgiher "hill". When I was every last bit of help form the cork I don't even bevel the inner end, where there is no end of socket to vlimb over it anyway.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-11-03 10:09
While a barrel shaped cork may arguably give a better seal, a cylindrical cork, well fitted, gives a lot more support to the joint. All I do is slightly bevel the outer end with a nail file prior to fitting to prevent snagging and tearing.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-03 14:49
The majority of wooden and moulded plastic B&H clarinets have notoriously sloppy fitting tenons, so they do benefit by having tenon corks being left thick and flat from the bevelled leading edge onwards, leaving the edge by the tenon shoulder square to make up for the poor fit between the tenon rings and the socket.
In the early to mid '60s they used the same width cutter on all the tenons to cut the cork slot, so the middle tenon was often left without an upper tenon ring so the middle tenon would wobble regardless how well the tenon cork was fitted. The only remedy here is to make new tenon rings that actually engage in the socket and have a narrower width tenon cork to eliminate the wobble.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2014-11-03 23:34
What I've learned from this thread: beveling only the outer edge of the tenon cork is, all in all, superior (and easier to do) to making a "barrel" shape.
Post Edited (2014-11-03 23:36)
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Author: glcdurham
Date: 2014-11-04 00:07
Hi
Does any one know the clearance fit for a cork tenon.
I recently sanded one to fit using a vernier gauge. I was surprised at the closeness of the fit, before I got a smooth engagement of the cork.
I recon the clearance to be about 5 thousands of an inch interference fit.
Can anyone shed light on the correct clearance?
Retired
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-11-04 00:23
It is entirely variable and depends primarily on 1). the quality of the cork 2). the relative diameters of the socket and the tenon groove.
You cannot really do this by measurement, some experience here goes a long way.
See my earlier post above..
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-11-04 02:49
I prefer not having a shoulder/bevel of the cork on the outer side of the tenon, as most damaged corks I see were simple sheared (shorn?) off when the instrument was assembled.
I don't strive for a perfect barrel shape, mind you, but I prefer having a really soft bevel for above reasons.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-05 00:30
Tenons should almost be an interference fit in their sockets so they will glide into place and feel secure without a tenon cork fitted. The problem with wooden instruments is there is always going to be some movement when the wood swells or shrinks due to humidity changes, so they have to be made to fit in their sockets without binding. Removing too much wood from the tenon rings will cause the tenons to wobble in their sockets, so only remove as little material from the tenon rings so they fit well and neither bind nor wobble.
If your tenons aren't a good fit in their sockets, then have them made to fit by having the tenon rings remade or new rings fitted. If the socket is misshapen, then have it trued up or lined.
Tenon corks aren't going to prevent tenons from wobbling due to the compression of the cork and oversized tenon corks can risk splitting the sockets due to the excessive pressure being exerted within the socket.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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