 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-10-07 02:19
> I wondered when I saw this, even though both instrtuments are marked LP,
> if the earliest one is A=435 and the later one is compensated for A=440 at
> the low Hz end?
Is bore on lower end on both the same? How about the size of toneholes?
Technically 435 (french) and 439 (440Hz modern) are the same pitch.. the difference in 4Hz is due to different temperature.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-10-07 03:40
435Hz and 440Hz are VERY different pitches - talking oboes for a bit here, this is why you see most modern oboes have a bell vent to bring the low Bb up to 440Hz from 435Hz instead of shortening the bell as shortening it by around 5mm knackered up the E, so they kept the old long bell from the 435Hz era and fitted the bell vent that only opens for the low Bb and is closed for every other note.
The low E and F are normally flat on the majority of clarinets as bringing them up to the correct pitch will make the upper register B and C too sharp - better to have the B and C in tune compared to the low E and F, but some clarinets (mainly Oehler systems and some Boehm systems) have the RH thumb key fitted which opens a bell vent and a low F vent (which is closed when low E is played) to bring these bottom notes up to pitch. Some Selmer Recitals and Buffet Elites had an optional automatic system whereby operating the speaker key closed the low F vent via a series of long links running along both joints.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-10-07 18:01
@Chris
yes they are different. But they are related in unexpected way (due to confusion in temperatures):
"...the French government passed a law on February 16, 1859 which set the A above middle C at 435 Hz. This was the first attempt to standardize pitch on such a scale, and was known as the diapason normal. It became quite a popular pitch standard outside France as well, and has also been known at various times as French pitch, continental pitch or international pitch (the last of these not to be confused with the 1939 "international standard pitch" described below).
At the Queen's Hall in London, the establishment of the diapason normal for the Promenade Concerts in 1895 (and retuning of the organ to A = 439 at 15 °C (59 °F), to be in tune with A = 435.5 in a heated hall) caused the Royal Philharmonic Society and others (including the Bach Choir, and the Felix Mottl and Artur Nikisch concerts) to adopt the continental pitch thereafter.
In England the term "low pitch" was used from 1896 onward to refer to the new Philharmonic Society tuning standard of A = 439 Hz at 68° F, while "high pitch" was used for the older tuning of A = 452.4 Hz at 60° F"
----------------------------------------------------
With respect o OP: it is quite possible that one of the joints is 435 and another 439. The difference in pitch sufficient to shorten clarinet by almost 1/4".
Another possibility they changed bore from german-style narrow to french flared. That should have risen pitch by a few cents.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-10-07 18:56
Makers will change tonehole diameters, positions, locations, joint lengths as they see fit from one moment to another depending on what they think works best at the time.
If you look at Selmer SBA altos and tenors, they changed the bell and bow lengths at least three times during the production run on them and Centered Tone clarinets underwent several changes in their production run too.
It's still happening to this day in all wind instrument manufacture, so in all honesty you shouldn't read any more into it than what you can already see - the reasons are very simple.
If an endorsee finds a certain note to be too low, high, stuffy, bright, etc, then they will have the influence on that company to do something about it to suit them, but not necessarily to suit everyone.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-10-07 19:33
Attachment: ircam.jpg (56k)
See attached chart.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-10-07 20:02
Chris P wrote:
> Makers will change tonehole diameters, positions, locations, joint lengths as
> they see fit from one moment to another depending on what they think
> works best at the time.
true but they're still based of the same scale which has been calculated ~150 years back.
Dibbs wrote:
>There's something wrong with that. It's about the right amount (13 or 14
> cents by 20°C) but in the wrong direction. The pitch goes up with
> temperature (as we all know).
you are absolutely right we are pulling out when instrument warms up. The above is a quote from very reputable source (wikipedia).
In reality it looks like the organ was tuned to continental 435 pitch in unheated hall, and it played at 439 when it was heated to 20C.
The prevailing believe that 439 was changed to 440 b/c 439 is a prime number which is hard to reproduce. It is also true 439 becomes 440 when it is heated from 20C/68F to 72F, just saying.
So called Verdi 432 pitch which puts C at 256Hz and makes calculations really easy could be also accounted for by cooling from 20C to 16C in winter?
Bottom line: this is all due to temperature confusions.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2014-10-08 03:10
Re tonehole placement- I'd bet $20 that the difference is in the bore- with one lower joint flaring "french style" around the 3rd finger hole, with the other flaring further down the joint (making for a more compact focussed sound, but also increasing resistance and possibly wider 12ths on lowest two notes).
dn
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-10-09 18:48
Silversorcerer wrote:
> Well, you won that bet.
not sure if there was anyone disagreeing with it?
> That is the case on the two Kohlerts
> for sure, the bores are different at the bottom of the joint,
> one flares earlier and more gradually, the other flares just
> above the tenon and a bit more rapidly.
>
are they in playable condition? could you post soundclips of long tube tones?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
