 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-09-18 23:34
I'd say you need to play both the F and the E sharper.
Tony
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-09-18 23:43
I'm not sure what you're asking. Obviously, F and E are flat compared to G and D. What to do about it depends on other things. For starters, how do the twelfths of those notes (or at least C, B and A) tune? How do G and D in your audio sample compare to the rest of the clarinet's scale?
Karl
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2014-09-18 23:53
Tony Pay wrote:
> I'd say you need to play both the F and the E sharper.
At this slow speed, I might succeed. But not when I play fast arpeggios beginning or ending with F or E.
I have clarinets without this problem where the intonation is at least as good in all other areas.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2014-09-19 00:06
Karl wrote:
> I'm not sure what you're asking.
Whether you would have kept this clarinet or returned it, or had it serviced.
> For starters, how do the twelfths of those notes (or at least C, B and A) tune? How do G and D in your audio sample compare to the rest of the clarinet's scale?
LH E and F are the outliers. High B and C are good. There is a tradeoff, but I own clarinets where both twelfths are good.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-09-19 00:14
OK, fair enough, we're on the same page.
I've played – have had to play – on instruments with this sort of discrepancy.
So, I suppose it depends on what else the instrument has to offer.
Every clarinet is a compromise of one sort or another. As someone said, "It depends on where you want your problems." So if an instrument has a wonderful sound and response, it may be worthwhile living with and adjusting to a flat E and F. (You can always use T/xox/ooo and T/oox/ooo plus RH Eb for loud, sustained E and F. And in fast passages, it doesn't really matter.)
It's up to you, really.
But it might be helpful to take on board the idea that you always win and lose:-)
Tony
Post Edited (2014-09-19 00:18)
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2014-09-19 00:18
try before buy, but also try adjusting the instrument and lipping .
richard smith
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2014-09-19 00:19
David Blumberg wrote:
> And your Mouthpiece can factor in also.
That's beyond my understanding. If G and D are in tune how can the mouthpiece affect the pitch of the in-between E and F?
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2014-09-19 00:45
It is rare, in my opinion, that a mouthpiece or barrel will be able to effect only one or two notes. It's usually more like that particular register, the throat tone, the clarion reigerter etc. A mouhtpiece can't pick out one or two notes to adjust without effecting the notes around it.
I've always recommend this to someone trying out a clarinet. Although it's common for the E and F to be a lttle flat, they can be adjusted if the 12th above are not sharp because if the E and F get raised a little it will of course make the higher B and C even sharper making those notes unplayable. So I suggest you see how sharp the 12ths are before having a tech work on the tone holes. I had that problem with my first Buffet and after Hans Moeneg, SP? spent over an hour working on the holes and the bore he handed it back to me and said in frustration to get a different mouthpiece and suggested a Buffet Stock MP. Of course that was ridiculous so I had to replace the clarinet. So if the C and D are pretty well in tune, and the 12ths high B and C are already a bit sharp you're problably screwed. You can raise their pitch of the E and F a bit by opening a side key and pinching a bit when possible or try a slightly shorter barrel and make adjustments to lowering some of the other notes which is often easy to do by putting some tape in the top half of the tone holes below the note you're lowering. You may be able to get a balance that way.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-09-19 01:46
I try to think simple. Since this is a new horn, perhaps there are some issues with key height and ring height that need adjustment.
On this pitch issue, the pad in between the left hand first and second fingers may just be sitting too low (or the bridge key of the top joint is bent down, causing the pad to sit too low once the clarinet is assembled). This would definitely lower the pitch of those notes.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2014-09-19 02:08
Thanks all for insightful answers. I already had decided before I posted to return the instrument, since I still have the chance. You know, when a C major scale becomes hard to play you have to question if this is the right instrument for you. There were a few other issues too.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2014-09-19 02:14
Paul, I checked the pad below the E tone hole. Lowering it a tad does not change pitch so distance should be ok. Thanks!
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-09-19 04:03
Flat E and F in the bottom register, left hand, is a common situation. An expert clarinet tuner can raise these notes by undercutting the appropriate tone holes, not affecting the B and C 12ths above. It could have been fixed in the factory, but they often cannot spend the time required to do it or do not understand the problem and how to fix it.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-09-19 05:57
Wes wrote:
> ... An expert clarinet tuner can raise these notes by
> undercutting the appropriate tone holes, not affecting the B
> and C 12ths above.
Undercutting is a useful technique for raising and freeing flat, stuffy notes (in this case maybe the small hole between the first and second LH fingers), but from my experience, I'd have to disagree that it would raise the lower notes without affecting the 12ths. The upper notes won't move as much as the lower ones, but they will move. There's always a need for caution in changing pitches by undercutting in any register so the change doesn't have unintended consequences elsewhere.
When undercutting, you can't put wood back if you find the upper notes have become too sharp or their color has been changed for the worse. Sometimes you have to settle for less than perfect in one register in order to prevent disaster in another.
In any case, you've returned the instrument, so the question seems largely moot.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2014-09-19 17:02
Wes, that's what the great Hans' Meonnig (SP?) tried to do on my clarient years ago, as I wrote above, to no avail. HE was unable to raise the E and F without making the B and C higher as well. He undercut the holes and taped the upper part of the tone holes and said that will work, it didn't. Easier said than done.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-09-20 03:34
looks like your tuning note is high.. if it were lower by 4-5% it would have been better in tune overall.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-09-20 21:17
Johan H Nilsson wrote:
> Pulling the barrel will not affect the relative tuning of G, F,
> E and D.
no, but pushing it in will make the deviation smaller. If you watch video all are either zero or negative. If it were tuned to midpoint you'd have some on positive side and some on negative.
F would be -7 +5 = -2 cents
and E would be -13+5 = -8 cents
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2014-09-20 21:50
Relative tuning, my friend, *relative*. G and D would be +5. E and F will still sound as bad relative to other tones.
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