 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2014-08-17 21:24
I just noticed last night that my clarinet has a hairline crack that starts right below the barrel and extends at least 4" downwards. I can't tell exactly how far it extends because the keys are in the way. Whether it has just cracked or if it's been that way for awhile, I'm not sure because it's so tiny. Do I wait and see what happens or take it in immediately to have it fixed?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-17 21:32
Have it ASSESSED immediately.
Does the top joint seal ok with a suction leak test (cover tone holes with fingers, stop bottom end with RH palm, placing lips on close end like a trumpet, suck air out; it should hold for few seconds and make a 'pop' when released)?
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: pewd
Date: 2014-08-17 21:36
Take it in, they'll need to pull a few keys and make sure the crack doesn't extend through tone holes.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-17 22:49
The quick answer is that it won't seal. Think about your finger coming down on the top of the tone hole, but air would be able to escape the side of the tone hole through the crack.
The good news is that the crack is not currently causing a problem. But as was discussed in another recent thread, you don't want the situation to get worse and start causing a problem.
And I would not recommend addressing a crack to someone not experienced in instrument repair.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2014-08-17 23:29
Please don't worry - a crack is rarely a disaster. Cracks are a common occurrence and most good repair techs are qualified for this eventuality.
Over my career I have had numerous instruments crack and I have witnessed many student's and colleague's instruments crack as well.
Please note that wood expands and contracts with temperature and humidity changes. This constant motion, combined with the moderately volatile nature of the material as compared to other synthetic materials can frequently cause such an issue as a crack to appear. Not to worry, most typically it can be easily and quickly repaired with superglue. Yes - Super Glue. There are many brands, but any will work, although I am sure some of our tech friends on this site can comment as to which brand they prefer (and why), but the key is that glue is by far the best thing you can do (in my opinion).
Other options such as pinning or banding are time honored solutions but I do not prefer them to glue for the following reasons:
1. Pinning and banding adds mass to the instrument and can cause the instrument's sound and response to dull somewhat.
2. Carbon fiber banding is better than metal as it is lighter, but it confines the wood to some degree from full motion - and this can cause the wood to expand in a different place - meaning it could crack elsewhere. Metal banding is an absolute no (in my opinion) as it defaces the instrument, devalues it, and worse - it adds mass (dulls the instrument's vibration), and restricts the wood's natural need to expand (move), which in turn means another crack elsewhere may well occur.
3. Pinning prevents the instrument from expanding at the place where the crack was - and often a new crack will appear on the opposite side of the clarinet's body. I have had this personally occur on my first Buffet R13 my parents bought for me in 1983, and I have seen it frequently through various walks within my career. My orchestra colleague's clarinet suffers such a plight. That instrument now has very long cracks on both sides of the body, they are long, unsightly and could well have been prevented - or at least reduced had her repair tech glued the first crack.
4. Numerous repair techs whom I have worked with over the years have helped council me to this conclusion. Their experiences and mine together have informed me in a way that I now have a strong mind where this subject is concerned.
Now, every year at the university where I teach, I show my students how to repair a cracked instrument. I run a bead of glue along the crack thereby filling the void. Then I sand and shape to a point where the crack is no longer visible. Out of sight - out of mind. My personal instrument cracked this summer and I repaired it this way, it has held up just fine, and I must say it looks so much better than the typical pin-job or band-job I see on other instruments. And in my experience, the cracks I have repaired, or have witnessed repaired by repair techs using the glue method seem to hold well. And if the crack opens up again - all that is usually needed is another bead of glue and some cleanup work.
Two notes:
1. A crack which runs through a tone hole can be repaired with glue (and I suggest should be repaired with glue). If however the crack is severe, a tone hole insert may be necessary for a perfect seal. In both cases a HIGHLY qualified repair tech is needed - someone who specializes in clarinet work. This is because the tone holes will probably need a bit of "dressing" work to smooth any glue residue while ensuring a proper airtight seal with the pad's closure. This dressing work requires proper tools and techniques which come from clarinet expertise, and some practice. I personally have seen many clarinets come from local music stores in terrible playing condition due to incompetent treatment of tone hole and pad relationships. (sorry no offense meant to the many fine repair techs out there). But it is a real issue!
2. Some cracks which are severe or which have the habit of continually opening up again, may require a repair which is more than just glue. And so I step aside and unhappily yield to the pin - but this is a last resort, highly unlikely scenario for me. My bass clarinet has a pin in it, but that followed two years of carefully glueing and watching a small crack at the top of the upper joint. Eventually I decided with the council of my repair tech that to pin (only two pins) would keep the upper joint secure, where the neck is inserted and it would help mitigate the stresses of the neck's need to be inserted and removed countless times during the day as I make my mouthpieces. But this was only a last choice option for me which made sense to me following much scrutiny.
My advise:
Don't pin a crack. Don't band a crack. Glue it.
And finally, I believe crack repair can be a simple thing that everyone could learn to do (at least the basics). It should be taught at every college as part of a studio class environment. Personal resourcefulness is something we should all embrace.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
Post Edited (2014-08-18 01:49)
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Author: Ben Shaffer
Date: 2014-08-17 23:47
This crack sounds technically like a " Check",
it other words it does not go through the bore but is just on the surface and then down a little.....
seems like most of these cracks on Clarinets are on the LH section which gets the warmest and has the most moisture.
Here is the deal, this crack may still be growing and short of banding it it may continue to grow... which is no big issue in this approach I am suggesting
So if you take it to a repair person at this point and it cracks again, don't freak out!
I'd put some crazy Glue along the crack and keep playing it, if the crack opens up again and it may....fill it again with glue..... and if it opens again fill it again...
. this may be over the course of several months.... at that point if the crack does not open any more.....( and I think Clarinets are probably like Irish Flutes and Bagpipes, filling it 3 times will be the magic number for sealing) take it to your local repair person and let them finish off the surface over the crack so it looks nice.... now when you fill in with the glue at first it may look a little rough but I would not be concerned as the repair person will be able to make it look nice in the end when the crack stabilizes
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2014-08-18 00:06
It's going to take some doing where I live to find someone experienced with this. I'm hoping the person I most trust doing all other repairs has done this type of thing before...she's very good! I don't think sending it to someone via air delivery would be wise at this point.
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2014-08-18 00:14
ALL excellent advice. Anybody want to go out on a limb and suggest WHICH super glue I should use?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-08-18 01:26
Get the thinnest super glue you can find, so it flows into the crack by capillary action.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-18 01:29
Yeah, just found "Steve Ocone's" advice under "Are You Playing a Cracked Clarinet?"
"Please note that there is a great variety of super glues. The type that I use for cracks is not at your local Walmart or Home Depot. It is very very thin and will seep down into the crack and into the pores of the wood. Even with this glue I enlarge the crack at the surface to "help the glue find the crack"."
Yes, but what BRAND or TYPE within that Brand are ya'll talking about???????
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-18 01:39
Thank you Dan, that was very helpful.
Can we get Brad Behn on board with this one?
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2014-08-18 02:09
Hi Paul,
Firstly, I want to thank you for your ongoing informative and supportive nature to your many posts on this BB. I appreciate your insights and I am certain many others do as well. Bravo Paul!
Dan, thanks for your links - excellent options.
I at this moment have three types of glue in my drawer. I have the Loctite (purchased at Walmart) which Dan has in his above link, I have epoxy which I use weekly for mouthpiece repairs as well as occasional crack needs (big voids and such), and I have a very thin Loctite which I can't recall specifics about since the label was torn upon unpacking. But they are easy to find on any search - Dan did a great job offering a thin glue.
I haven't had any problems with the glue's capillary motion to fill the entire void. In fact, I feel the opposite is true - frequently the glue sets in so well that I have to wait until it is dry and coat with another layer.
BTW, I do rub the glue inside the crack with some massaging of the area using the shaft of a Qtip. This allows me to make a big ugly mess on the surface of the clarinet (not ideal but it easily cleans up), but it certainly fills the void.
And finally a quick note about epoxy. Not only does epoxy have amazing power to hold, it is also available in various set-hardnesses. And one can find water-resistant epoxy as well (this is what I use), which I find has a very similar acoustic and hardness to hard rubber the material from which I manufacture my mouthpieces. So Epoxy has become my preferred glue whenever possible.
Some cautions about epoxy - make sure you stir and mix properly. Try to avoid little bubbles. And Epoxy is only to be used on the top layer of any large voids or cracks.
Checks - use super glue. Large cracks - super glue or epoxy can both be applicable.
Note - epoxy is much thicker than super glue.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2014-08-18 07:14
How do you clean up/get rid of the excess superglue so you end up with a smooth finish? Do you sand it? Just wipe it off (although I would think this would leave residue where you don't want it)? Brad...a dream-come-true would be to have a video on youtube of the process you share with your students!
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2014-08-18 08:44
I just file off the large majority of excess residue and then I have a tool I made which allows me to use strips of sandpaper in varying grits to sand off the rest. Then I finish with a nail manicuring file (flexible kind) and buff with buffing strips. It leaves the crack invisible.
I don't have a crack to repair at the moment, but I will do a photo essay of the process next time I have to do it. I will check with my student's when the semester begins next week. Perhaps one of them had a crack appear over the summer.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2014-08-18 13:09
I've repaired cracks too and use the ZAP CA glue.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-08-18 14:44
As far as "sepcial" super glues that are better than the more comon ones, I guess it's possible there are ver yspecific super glues that are better for specific purposes. However I've tried many types, including ones sold by instrumen repair suppliers, and they were the same as some of the types available at local stores.
Super glues sometimes don't last very long, especailly if not kept in the fridge, so best to use a new package if you are not sure.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2014-08-18 16:51
IRT to cyanoacrylic glues (superglues) and epoxies:
Go to any R/C Hobby shop. The selection of glues with different viscosities and properties will amaze those that don't use them on a regular basis. I used to build (and often repair :-/ ) R/C helicopters as a hobby - and used a few of the different superglues and other filler/adhesives pretty often.
As an experienced R/C helicopter enthusiast told me once about the hobby: "Stand on a freeway overpass and throw 500 dollars into the wind. Next week do it again. And then again. When you get to start enjoying throwing your money away, you're ready for this hobby."
He wasn't lying. You spend money on your toys even faster than you do on clarinet bling.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-18 17:53
Mark,
That's the best description of a 'hobby' I've ever heard.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-08-18 18:12
>> He wasn't lying. You spend money on your toys even faster than you do on clarinet bling. <<
Try photography.......
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2014-08-18 19:26
clarnibass wrote:
> Try photography.......
I have a problem there, too - but I don't throw my lenses on the concrete or grass or ocean so often.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2014-08-18 23:25
I had built and flewn RC plane models for about 50 years till I first was fascinated by RC helicopters, especially by the rapid technical development of the electronic position control. So I started building and flying them- and after awhile had to concede that this became too strenuous for my age- and a bit expensive, too. I sold them and began instead restoring and playing clarinets; I felt the 19th century control technique was more adequate for me. And besides: I found Schumann Fantasiestücke or Crusell more rewarding than learnig to steer a loop with a RC helicopter.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-08-19 00:41
Yeah, well... I have a commercial NEED to combine RC helicopters (ie drones) with photography of client hotels. Until very recently this was verboten in USA per the FAA, they even tried to fine a college $$$$$ for promoting their campus with drone photos. (No such issue for private use- but zero tolerance for commercial drones- of course it goes on everywhere anyway but I'm skittish about ignoring testy bureaucrats.) Then within the last week I read they are allowing on a case by case basis, so I've emailed my local FAA office for more info.
So, anyway... I may very well be "throwing lenses on the concrete... or ocean" fairly soon. I did some of this with kites and balloons (that's totally legal if you aren't too close to an airport LOL) and smashed and dunked a few cameras. But at least the kites were $$ not $$$ or $$$$.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-08-19 05:16
I have no connection to the company and have never tried the product. However, Ferree's Tools, Inc. sells a "super glue" that they say is a special, low viscosity glue made especially to repair hairline cracks in wooden instruments. It is even available with a bag of Grenadilla chips (kit is part #H75). They say it sets in about 15 seconds and they also offer an accelerator catalyst if you need to have it set quicker.
http://www.ferreestools.com
My price list is from 2012, but shows the glue/chip kit at $7.95, glue alone $4.40, chips alone at $4.25, and catalyst at $18.40. I guess those must be valuable seconds you save with the catalyst.
Post Edited (2014-08-19 05:19)
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-08-20 07:11
Silversorcerer: Your proposal makes a lot of sense. I think, if the small cracks in my Series 10 decide to open up again some time in the future, I'll give it a try (unlikely since they are staying closed tight with only humidity and temperature control and an oiled bore). I, too, believe in keeping my instrument bore adequately oiled (either Bore Doctor or Almond oil). As I mentioned in my previous post, I have not tried the Ferree's product, so am unable to vouch for its effectiveness. What I failed to say is that they also offer a solvent for their glue. I have no idea how well it would work to remove their glue from a failed repair, but this could be an advantage over generic super glue.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-08-20 09:22
>> all I can say is I hope no one takes the advice to use superglue on a fine clarinet seriously <<
So you claim that 99.9% of repairers (including excellent repairers) and several clarinet companies (inclduing Yamaha, just for one example) are wrong when they use and suggest super glue?
I'm really asking, not being sarcastic.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-08-21 00:22
> That way you will only ever have the original crack to deal with;- not a
> second crack that relieved the same tension that the first crack relieved.
Hmm. Now if I have a hairline crack that is open, and I fill it with $glue (be it hide glue, super glue, epoxy, PVA, whatever), then I just replaced the air in the crack with some kind of filler. Assuming that said crack wouldn't open any further (because I oiled the wood afterwards), then why would I risk a second crack as the tension has already been relieved? I did not force the wood back to it's uncracked position, I just eliminated the source of potential leaks while leaving the wood in tension-relieved position.
And if I used hide glue, how on earth would I remove it from a hairline crack? I doubt that any significant amount of hot water or vapour could enter the hairline. (besides I fear that such a heat treatment would just provoke other havoc)
--
Ben
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-08-21 00:38
Top quality hide glue is great for working with string instruments but I am not convinced it is anything like strong enough to use in a hairline woodwind crack (or even get in there).
Hide glues require to be physically applied to the surfaces and then worked together for proper adhesion.
Hide glue used on violins etc is deliberately designed to be reversible as the makers fully realised that in the almost inevitable need for repairs over the decades/centuries the only practicable solution to many problems requires the instrument to be dismantled.
The strength of the glue can be varied by it's dilution prior to use with the thinner (and weaker) mixes being used on those parts most frequently removed e.g. finger boards.
The thinness required to even contemplate running into a crack in a woodwind would be very very weak.
Even violin repairs where a tension or separating stress is involved such as a crack in the belly or the back uses not only the strongest glue mix but is invariable reinforced with many small buttons inside the body and across the line of the crack to provide needed strength.
Cleanliness is also vital and whilst a cracked violin front can be gently flexed to open up the crack to assist cleaning this is impossible with a clarinet body.
The real strength in a hide glue joint such as the centre join of the 2 pieces of the violin belly is only obtained with a joint fit of absolute perfection and then using the rubbed joint process to achieve an almost molecular bind between the 2 pieces - something again totally impossible with woodwind.
Super glues do work when a small fresh and clean crack occurs and one where there is little residual stress likely to remain after repair.
From a mechanical viewpoint I believe that carbon fibre banding is by far the best solution when further stress is likely.
The resultant mass of the repair (as opposed to a metal band repair) is never going to be greater than the original mass of the wood removed from the groove and the process of carbon banding adds zero stress whereas metal is crimped in under high pressure.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2014-08-21 18:46
Attachment: SAM_0242.jpg (164k)
Hide glue has become obsolete in carpentry for more than a half century mainly for the following reasons:
it requires very exact and narrow fitting of the surfaces to be joined because it has poor gap filling properties compared with modern glues
the workpieces must be pressed together while drying;
it is not water resistent;
it is awkward to use: you have to warm it up in a double walled pot with a water bath.
I see that hide glue is still used for repairs or restoring of string instruments or antique carpentry, but wouldn't try it on wind instruments.
At school we had a carpentry course, and my father gave me a copper glue pot which I kept for nostalgic reasons (see foto), but never used it. We always worked with more modern glues.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-08-21 23:15
David,
Michael is correct - any hide glue joint has to be very close fitting to have any strength. That is why, as I pointed out in my earlier post, in violin making the centre joint is a rubbed joint which results in the wood being bonded at the molecular level - there is virtually no glue remaing in the joint apart from a microscopic amount bonding the molecules.
A wide hide glue joint is not only ugly but also very weak - the glue itself has no real strength.
Just for the record I trained 3 years at college in violin/cello making and repair as well as all the woodwinds and sweated hours learning how to plane the centre joint on violin fronts to achieve the perfection of fit that results in strong and a near invisible joint. Over the past 20 years I have also opened up violins well over 100 hundred years old for repair.
So No - I would not even contemplate using hide glue on clarinet cracks and life (mine anyway) is far too short to waste on the futile experiment.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-08-22 02:13
David, having hijacked this thread to expound your own predudices you clearly don't like people who won't subscribe to your opinions.
Yes life is too short to waste on such.
Bye.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-08-22 07:10
Silversorcerer,
Initially I was interested in what you had to offer on the matter of dealing with cracks. I don't neccesserily agree with you on the matter, but it's always refreshing to get a different perspective. Unfortunately your offering has become an offensive rant in which you attack those whose experience differed from yours. It does your credibility no good.
Tony F.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-08-22 09:48
Silversorcerer, I will read your long posts later, but for now I can just post this.
>> The people who recommend super glue to repair wood have likely never had to correct a failed super glue repair <<
Incorrect. It is a fact that many repairers have done this.
>> or restore an instrument that is the victim of these types of quick and dirty repairs. <<
Assuming that by "quick and dirty" you mean bad, then also incorrect. Same as above.
>> Of course the approach is to just use more super glue until the instrument is nothing but a mess of brittle material that nothing else will adhere to. <<
Incorrect. The approach in general is to bring the clarinet into a good and reliable condition.
>> Why not just build clarinets out of cyanoacrylate if it is such a good material? <<
Irrelevant... some plastics and woods are also not materials used for gluing cracks but they are used for building clarinets. The two things are separate. Obviously the details matter but this shows why the basic logic here is wrong.
Some of the other things you write also contradict what scientific and double blind tests have shown, so it is difficult to respond to it.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-08-22 12:51
I agree with Tony.
Your information re the virtue of hide glue and your instructions as how to use if for a crack were helpful and let me indeed consider this kind of glue for certain projects - not limited to woodwind repair.
However, you managed to taint your helpful contributions by unnecessarily belittling or ridiculing other people's experiences or methods. It doesn't a noble cause do any good when you alienate those whom you initially wanted to enlighten and to convince of your own methods.
--
Ben
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-08-22 14:43
Has anybody ever tried urea-fomaldehyde resorcinol glues in instrument repairs? They have good gap-filling properties and a lot of strength. I've used them in boatbuilding for years and have found them to be very good structural adhesives. Might be good for some applications where there is no expectation of the joint ever having to come apart. Not sure about toxicity, but as long as they're not where you put your fingers of your lips it shouldn't be a problem.
Tony F.
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