 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BbMajorBoy
Date: 2014-08-13 16:25
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There was an auction on that site selling a 'Buffet Crampon Clarinet', when I looked at the pictures, it looks to me like an R13.
I was just wondering if anyone could compare their vintage R13 with this.
Thanks
Leonard Bernstein: "To achieve great things, two things are needed; a plan, and not quite enough time."
Post Edited (2014-08-13 16:27)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-08-13 22:34
Not quite sure what you mean by "vintage" (there is a Buffet R13 Vintage model still made today).
However it bears quite close resemblance to my 1963 R13.
Do they quote a serial number?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-13 23:35
At first it looked to be from the '70s to me but it is silver plated and R13s were not available with a silver finish back then. So perhaps it's from the 60s as Norman indicated.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: BbMajorBoy
Date: 2014-08-14 19:49
Sorry, I wasnt clear. By vintage I mean old!
They hadnt listed a serial number. I have arranged to buy it but didnt want to seem too interested. They had it at a ridiculously low price so I made an offer and they accepted it. Im going to pick it up on monday and will send it off for an overhaul.
Leonard Bernstein: "To achieve great things, two things are needed; a plan, and not quite enough time."
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Author: pewd
Date: 2014-08-14 21:30
Plastic adjustment screw on the 'A' key - probably newer than 1970's, unless its been replaced. There is no way to know without a serial number.
Is that gunk, dirt, crud on the bell? Or a crack? Or just a fuzzy picture... Take a good look at the bell when picking it up.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: BbMajorBoy
Date: 2014-08-15 01:05
Where abouts on the bell do you mean Paul?
Looking at my 1979 R13 A which has a metal adjusting screw, so possibly 80s?
Leonard Bernstein: "To achieve great things, two things are needed; a plan, and not quite enough time."
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-08-15 01:47
I see no trademark on any joint. The Buffet trademark increases the value, so I can think of no reason to remove it.
The posts have anchor screws, with the older R13s did not have.
I think it's a fake.
Ken Shaw
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Author: BbMajorBoy
Date: 2014-08-15 01:54
Leonard Bernstein: "To achieve great things, two things are needed; a plan, and not quite enough time."
Post Edited (2014-08-15 01:55)
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Author: BbMajorBoy
Date: 2014-08-15 01:54
Attachment: $_57 (4).JPG (141k)
There is a logo on the bell, upper joint and lower joint.
And the case is a Buffet.
Leonard Bernstein: "To achieve great things, two things are needed; a plan, and not quite enough time."
Post Edited (2014-08-15 01:56)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-15 13:21
The anchor screws are a definite indicator of age (or 'not so age') but the teflon adjustment screw on the "A" key could easily (and probably was) added at a later time.
I think clarinetists usually refer to "vintage" Buffets as those dating from the 50's and prior.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: BbMajorBoy
Date: 2014-08-15 13:37
Forgive me, but what are anchor screws?
For me anything before the 80s is vintage! I guess this is because I'm only 15!!
Leonard Bernstein: "To achieve great things, two things are needed; a plan, and not quite enough time."
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-08-15 17:33
Look at the bottom post for the low E key. There's a tab with a screw to anchor the post and keep it from turning.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2014-08-17 21:03
It isn't a vintage buffet, but the case would place it in the mid 80's (beware however as it could have been placed in a different case).
FWIW - there are two points of view when defining a Buffet clarinet as Vintage:
1. Pre-R13
2. Golden Era R13
What is a pre-R13 you may ask? Well, in truth, Buffet clarinets changed a lot and continue to do so over time, so it is really a moving target. From a Marketing point of view, Buffet introduced different (polycylindrical) acoustics with the R13, or some discussions point out that the US partner and distributer at the time of the R13's introduction code-named the instrument as such. But around 1955 is when buffet transitioned to what we now call the R13. That would place the serial numbers in the early 50,000's. You can recognize an R13 easily from two points of view 1. the A-G# post is no longer shared - that is to say that each key has two separate posts holding them in place. Older Buffet's shared a corner post - just like current Eb clarinets continue to do. 2. And the top two trill keys are braced together by a different shaped brace. Pre-R13's were braced by an upside down V-shaped brace, and R13's were braced by a rounded structure.
I have numerous clarinets and I can say that Pre-R13's can be excellent as long as you find one which tunes properly - not an easy find. But a wonderful find when it all comes together- for sure!
What is a Golden Era R13 you may ask? Well it is subject to personal preference, but I believe the most highly sought after era is from the late 60's to the early 70's. There are some pockets during the late 50's and early 60's as well, but those R13's were so different from decade to decade that it becomes highly subjective as to which era is preferred by whom. Serial numbers in the 90,000's through the early 130,000's are generally considered the best in terms of power, focus, clarity, warmth, color, and flexibility of sound - balanced with a good intonation. Perhaps the sweetest spot within the golden era being from the mid 90,000's through the mid 110,000's.
Many clarinetists like the 80,000 series, but I have yet to find one as good as the late 90,000 and 100,000 series. I personally have a love of the mid-late 50,000 series and I have a great 60,000 series A clarinet which I am eager to experience after I get it back from my repair tech. The 70,000 series perhaps most elusive in availability can be stunning as well, but I must warn potential shoppers that from the pre-R13 era through to the 80,000 series, intonation and sound were highly variable. There were some jewels within, but tricky to uncover for sure.
And worth noting, Buffet currently make beautiful instruments and there were excellent pockets in the post-Vintage era. I have played and own some wonderful 1980's (mid 200,000 series) and mid 1990's (mid 300,000 series) clarinets as well.
Buyers suggestions: Always check serial numbers. Buffet has less desirable German made student instruments which look very similar to their more valuable and better performing French made counterparts. Serial numbers and place of manufacture are always evident - and should be confirmed before any agreement is made. A very pretty silver plated German Buffet may be only worth a few hundred dollars or less (used), whereas a silver plated French made Buffet clarinet (which looks nearly the same - although there are some tell-tale key positioning and manufacturing details which to a trained eye are obvious) can be worth thousands! Don't trust the case in which the instrument is displayed. The case is not a reliable way to assess the instrument's value.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
Post Edited (2014-08-18 01:05)
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Author: BbMajorBoy
Date: 2014-08-18 20:18
Update:
It is an old R13. dating to 1986.
I have taken some pictures and adjusted the levels as to show the logos. I will not include the serial numbers.
It plays nicely but does definitely need an overhaul which will be carried out shortly.
Thanks for your replies.
Leonard Bernstein: "To achieve great things, two things are needed; a plan, and not quite enough time."
Post Edited (2014-08-18 20:25)
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Author: BbMajorBoy
Date: 2014-08-18 20:25
Pictures here:
Leonard Bernstein: "To achieve great things, two things are needed; a plan, and not quite enough time."
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