 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: 47tim
Date: 2014-08-09 22:20
Hello everyone, I've decided to purchase a wooden clarinet as my next clarinet. I have a few questions about oil. I've seen many threads about oil but none really answer these questions clearly.
1) Should I oil a wooden clarinet?
2)If so, how often?
3)What oil should I use?
Thanks,
Tim
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-08-09 22:31
Have your clarinet oiled by your tech when it goes in for its initial and then yearly service.
They will know which is their favourite kind of oil to use (usually a vegetable based oil) and how much to apply and where plus they will have all the keys off so the pads and key corks don't get contaminated.
If you choose to oil your clarinet yourself, then you may be taking a risk if you overdo it and will only have to fork out to have it all cleaned up.
I don't recommend anyone oil their own instruments unless they're clued up on exactly what they're doing as I've seen far too many instruments swimming in oil which meant a thorough clean-up and a lot of replaced pads and corks.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2014-08-09 22:33
If, after hearing all the answers, you decide to oil your clarinet, go with the Doctor's products.
AAAClarinet
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-08-09 23:13
You haven't seen clear answers to your questions because there aren't any. Some of us insist you must oil a clarinet's bore regularly or risk having the clarinet crack. Others of us insist that we've never oiled our clarinets' bores and never had a cracked instrument. Nor is there any real agreement about what oil to use or with what frequency if you do oil your clarinet bore.
That should about summarize what you find among past threads.
If you're buying a new clarinet, you might contact the manufacturer and ask for their advice about oiling. Then if there is a crack that comes under the guarantee, you'll have done what they required.
As far as I know neither Selmer nor Buffet recommends oiling their clarinets, at least when new, though that's very old information that may have changed since I've bought any instruments.
Karl
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2014-08-11 04:59
Kessler Bros. from Las Vegas say once a month using almond oil and a turkey feather...really! Just 6-7 drops of almond oil along the spine and applied to the different joints. Plus, the yearly "deep oiling."
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-08-11 22:41
Oil - either almond or Doctors products as above.
Frequency - as an approx guide -
every month for 6 months
every 2 months next 6 months
every 3 months for following year
in subsequent years every 6 months should be fine and after 10/20 years probably once a year.
most important parts are the barrel and top joint as these are most affected by heat and humidity when playing.
Oil the end grain of the sockets and the tenons (a cheap childs paint brush is useful for painting the oil on these (these should be done even if you do nothing else!)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-08-12 00:30
Hans Moennig kept a block of grenadilla in a bucket of oil for 50 years. When anyone asked him about bore oil, he pulled out the block, shaved off a paper-thin slice and showed the questioner that the oil hadn't penetrated even that far.
François Kloc said the bore should never be oiled.
I have never oiled my 1970s R13s, Bb and A, my 1928 Buffet C, my 1909 Buffet Bb/A pair or my 1960 Buffet bass.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-08-12 02:38
Just as chrome or nickel plate doesn't need to penetrate the depth of the base metal in order to provide protection against corrosion so oil only needs to exist in the first few microns of the wood in order to do its job.
There are folks around who claim they never wear seat belts to - but that's not the same as saying all the folks who never wore seat belts are still around.
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2014-08-12 03:01
(Disclaimer - I make a plant derived oil mixture, Genuine Grenadilla Oil, wood cleaner, and Case Odor Eliminator which kills mold spores)
The trouble with old wife's tales is that they do not take into account modern scientific investigation and proof. There is good advice in many of the posts but some are just wrong.
Just a bunch of proven facts:
One problem with tales is that the proper oils were not used. Certain plant oils will penetrate wood deeply which is proven. Plant oils interact with water and carry moisture into the wood and maintain a moisture balance within the wood. Petroleum oils like clear mineral oil and some synthetics are hydrophobic and repel water and the plant oils within the wood.
Clarinet wood can and does loose oil and moisture which should be replaced to maintain the structural qualities of the wood and the dimensions of tone holes that were bored at the factory. Some clarinets will never need oiling, some will.
Buffet does not sell bore oil or use the formulation attributed to them on the internet which is bogus. New clarinets do not need to be oiled and an oiling schedule should take into account environmental and playing conditions, and the individual oil needs of each piece of wood. A technician should oil or suggest an oiling schedule for your instrument and environmental conditions. An oil balance should be established both in the bore and the outside of the clarinet.
The outside of the wood should be cleaned and old oil and dust accumulations removed to clear the natural pores of the wood and also oiled if there is not a sealed finish on the wood. Most of the oil and water is lost from the outside of the wood. Thin coats of oil can be applied with overnight standing until oil is seen on the surface. At this point the wood has absorbed sufficient oil and the wood will not be over oiled.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
P.S. I get asked constantly about which oils to use on wood. Almond oil and/or olive oil, or peanut oil are some that are used by folks. These are not necessarily bad for the wood but they may turn rancid in the bottle or even on the wood. Sweet almond oil is especially prone to turn rancid depending on the source and processing. Autoxidation (rancid formation) of the triglycerides produces acid byproducts which can harm wood. Some will use Vitamin E as an antioxidant but it is a decent preservative in animal based oils and fats but poor in plant based oils. Plants themselves produce strong antioxidants which are only now being better understood and some are used in plant oil mixtures for a long shelf life. Consult a technician to suggest what they use or recommend.
Post Edited (2014-08-12 14:40)
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2014-08-12 03:09
I specialize in clarinet repair. This is how I support my family and extravagant life style;). And I don't have a stock answer.
If I'm working on an older or well used clarinet I examine the bore. If it looks dried out I will use oil and see how quickly it is absorbed. If all the keys are off and I have the time I will apply oil a few times a day till I still see some oil on the surface. I don't recommend regular oiling of newer clarinets and I'm not against it - maybe I should be a politician.
Steve Ocone
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-08-12 17:50
Silversorcerer wrote:
> The idea that oil does not penetrate from inside to out is very
> easily debunked by applying it to the bore of a dried out
> clarinet. I already posted photographs on another thread of a
> dried out bell being saturated to the outside by only applying
> oil to the bore.
>
This brings in the idea that if the wood *isn't* dried out, maybe oiling is unnecessary. Which would make questionable the need for routine, periodic oiling - monthly, semi-annually, annually.
The OP is asking about routine, periodic oiling of an instrument that is presumably in good condition and not dried out from decades in a hot attic.
> A story is often a story;- there is no replacement for first
> hand experience.
>
Well, I don't think you can complain that either Hans Moennig or Francois Kloc lacked experience in this.
Karl
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2014-08-12 18:54
Same disclaimer.
Each piece of your clarinet most likely comes from a different tree and a differnt area within the wood. Each piece also looses oil at a different rate depending on the environmental conditions. When I oil, I oil the pieces where some require oil and others do not. Since the natural oil in the wood interacts well with water the surface oil can be washed away in the bore by condensation from playing.
The first places to notice oil loss are in the barrel and upper tenon top where a dull and grey appearance rather than a black and shiny look indicate oil loss. There may not be a set oiling schedule because of your particular environmental and playing conditions. As some have mentioned they never oil their instruments and have not for many years.
Technicians will tell you that they have seen instruments that have lost water and oil due to hot and dry storage conditions or environments. A cool and damp environment may lead to less moisture and oil loss. Therefore, an inspection and advice from your local technician about oiling frequency in your situation is the best approach. A regualr schedule may not be the best approach. One test may be to add a thin coat of a good oil on a suspected dry area and see if it is absorbed in 16 hours. If it remains on the surface the wood has sufficient oil but if it is quickly absorbed it would indicate more oil is needed.
No disrespect to Hans Moenig or Francois Kloc but I know that Hans did not use an oil proven to penetrate Grenadilla. Francois may not be acquainted with older instruments that have been exposed to hot and dry conditions - perhaps he has? I am not a technician but I have revived several tens of dried out clarinets with controlled and monitored moisture exposure and oil.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2014-08-12 19:14
To oil or not, that is the question. It won't hurt to oil a clarinet once a year but it really isn't necessary. Some techs say yes and some say now. If you do you can use an old swab, put a few drops of bore oil on it and pull it through the bore a few times. Make sure you cover the closed pads with paper first so the pads don't discolor. If you do, at least wait a year if it's new.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-08-12 19:54
"You haven't seen clear answers to your questions because there aren't any." Karl's comment says it all in a nutshell. Believe what you want to believe.
Bob Draznik
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-08-12 20:34
I'm just glad I no longer own a wood clarinet, so I don't have to tax my brain cells with these questions. Others would say the same about some of the things I've chosen to obsess about- to each his own, makes the world a more interesting place.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-08-12 22:05
The Doctor wrote:
> No disrespect to Hans Moenig or Francois Kloc but I know that
> Hans did not use an oil proven to penetrate Grenadilla.
> Francois may not be acquainted with older instruments that have
> been exposed to hot and dry conditions - perhaps he has? I am
> not a technician but I have revived several tens of dried out
> clarinets with controlled and monitored moisture exposure and
> oil.
Omar, with respect, I have never tried to make any kind of argument against oiling badly dried out clarinets to revive them. I'm not sure Moennig did, either, though I never had a discussion with him about it. That's a whole different issue from oiling routinely regardless of the instrument's condition.
Out of curiosity, do you know what oil the manufacturers use in their preparation of the raw billets?
Karl
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2014-08-13 05:28
Same disclaimer.
The think that the point of Moenig's block of wood in a pot of oil was that oil did not penetrate African Blackwood. If this were the case then reviving dried out wood using oil in his example would not work.
I think that I also made the point that in applying oil that you mileage may vary and the advice of a technician about your instrument and your environmental and playing conditions would not apply to everyone. Any generalized maintenance routine is not applicable to all instruments and places.
Yes, I do know the wood preparation techniques and products used by the major manufacturers in preparing their wood to make instruments. You can ask them or take a tour and it is not a secret procedure. Preparing wood for milling into an instrument is different however from use and care after some time since purchase. Some manufacturers have been short cutting the drying, aging and wood stabilization techniques used in the past which may cause need for more watchful monitoring of an individual's instrument.
I myself would not use what they use on the wood and possibly this is due to a greater cost of a quality plant derived oil for them but they for the most part have been doing the same thing for decades and selling the instruments. I do not agree with the practice of some well known instrument manufacturers lending their name to mineral oil labeled as bore oil. Petroleum oils are bad for the wood in the long term and they do not use these oils themselves in preparing the wood for manufacture.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-08-13 06:16
The Doctor wrote:
> The think that the point of Moenig's block of wood in a pot of
> oil was that oil did not penetrate African Blackwood. If this
> were the case then reviving dried out wood using oil in his
> example would not work.
>
I don't want to belabor the Moennig anecdote, but that block of wood he had in the oil soak was not an old desiccated piece, and I think all he was doing was dramatizing (and maybe enjoying a little joke while he was at it) that including oiling in a maintenance routine was in his view a waste of time. We were, it's true, in Philadelphia and I don't know if he would have taken the same position if he had been working in Phoenix or Southern California.
As I say, I never had the discussion with him directly because when I was going to him for my repair work, I was playing instruments that he had worked on continuously and (except for his shop assistant) exclusively. I had bought my A clarinet from him. Dryness, as it can result from disuse and severe neglect over years, was never an issue for my instruments.
Interestingly - I remember, he insisted on using orange peels and *not* Dampits to remedy loose rings. His explanation - seemingly contradictory to his general attitude about bore oil - was that the peels emitted volatile oils which were better for the wood and more likely to be absorbed than water.
Of course, his opinions, like those of most of the players who express the most unequivocal opinions pro or con today, were based on experience and observation, not scientific study. He was certain from his experience (which was considerable) that instruments weren't any less likely to crack if they were oiled regularly, *whether the oil was absorbed or not.* He was equally sure, based on experience, that orange peels were better than dampits. Only his explanation about volatile oils, and not the observation itself, was almost certainly based on conjecture as much as anything else.
Since you're familiar with the preparation of the wood by the major manufacturers, can you say if the billets are simply soaked in open tubs, or are they soaked under pressure to force more oil into the wood?
Karl
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2014-08-13 15:08
Thanks for the personal experiences with Mr. Moenig. He indeed has been a significant factor with his work for the clarinet community.
Some of the manufacturers dip, some pressure infuse, and one does not pre-oil at all.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-08-13 16:28
And then there is the possibility that the routine of oiling simply helps to remove "crud" that accumulates just from playing the horn.
Bob Draznik
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