 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-06-30 21:37
So, for those of us who are even more confused than you give us credit for being,
1. What exactly *is* "rosewood?" Is it a specific sub-class of "Dalbergia" or a generic sub-class identified mostly by its lighter color than "grenadilla (African blackwood, mpingo)?"
2. And BTW, are mpingo, grenadilla and African blackwood synonymous?
3. Where does cocobolo fit in? Does the term "rosewood" include it or is it a separate tree?
It's all a little mysterious. I have a Patricola clarinet advertised as "rosewood" that looks like the same wood as *some* of my "cocobolo" barrels but lighter with more red highlight and less brown than other cocobolo barrels. My two very old (ca. 1950s) Koch cocobolo recorders look darker and more brown, but of grain similar to my Patricola clarinet. Are these different woods or just different stains?
The real frustration is that, whoever I ask about any of this, I'm almost certain to get an answer I've never heard before.
Karl
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-06-30 21:55
"When it comes to clarinets, we rarely find an instrument that is actually made from rosewood. Because of over harvesting and prohibitions, relative difficulty in factory machining, most rosewood clarinets are close to 75 years old or more. A few custom makers offer rosewood now, but even grenadilla is becoming scarce."
East Indian rosewood is plenty and alot cheaper then mpingo (aka african blackwood, grenadilla). Has very nice acoustic properties. The reason it is not used b/c of lack of dimensional/volumetric stability.
here is some info on related to Mpingo Dalbergia species:
http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/african-blackwood/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalbergia
If you refer to Brazilian rosewood (Dalbergia nigra), then yes it is very rare with prohibitions on harvesting and export. Brazilian rosewood is a prime wood in guitar making, however it isn't for the woodwinds.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-06-30 22:47
cyclopathic wrote:
> here is some info on related to Mpingo Dalbergia species:
> http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/african-blackwood/
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalbergia
>
So, while grenadilla/African blackwood/mpingo is a specific species of Dalbergia, the rosewoods are not, but include many possible species of Dalbergia that (according to the Wiki article) are identified by a rose-like aroma, rather than by their appearance. Cocobolo, otoh, is a specific species - D. retusa.
So, David, is there a way to know what species of Dalbergia a rosewood instrument is made from? Does it matter in terms of your post? Do all of the "rosewood" species share common characteristics of density and weight?
Come to think of it, for any instrument makers reading this, do the makers of rosewood clarinets actually know what wood they have, or is it sold to the manufacturing market as generic and otherwise unidentified "rosewood?"
Karl
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-06-30 23:57
kdk wrote:
>
> So, while grenadilla/African blackwood/mpingo is a specific
> species of Dalbergia, the rosewoods are not, but include many
> possible species of Dalbergia that (according to the Wiki
> article) are identified by a rose-like aroma, rather than by
> their appearance. Cocobolo, otoh, is a specific species - D.
> retusa.
Karl,
there are multiple Dalbergia species which called rosewood (scroll Mpingo link down):
Amazon Rosewood (Dalbergia spruceana)
Bois de Rose (Dalbergia maritima)
Brazilian Rosewood (Dalbergia nigra)
Burmese Rosewood (Dalbergia oliveri)
East Indian Rosewood (Dalbergia latifolia)
Honduran Rosewood (Dalbergia stevensonii)
Madagascar Rosewood (Dalbergia baronii)
Siamese Rosewood (Dalbergia cochinchinensis)
Yucatan Rosewood (Dalbergia tucurensis)
>
> So, David, is there a way to know what species of Dalbergia a
> rosewood instrument is made from? Does it matter in terms of
> your post? Do all of the "rosewood" species share common
> characteristics of density and weight?
>
> Come to think of it, for any instrument makers reading this, do
> the makers of rosewood clarinets actually know what wood they
> have, or is it sold to the manufacturing market as generic and
> otherwise unidentified "rosewood?"
>
There are some tests which could be used to distinguish related Dalbergias (read this http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/distinguishing-brazilian-rosewood-from-east-indian-and-other-rosewoods/) but there is no definitive test (except perhaps DNA) which could pinpoint specific species.
I don't think it actually matters as much which species it is, b/c if you look at properties, they are not as much apart (except maybe Hondurian Rosewood). And in selection what matters at the end is how stable wood is: elasticity, density and shrinkage rates. Also workability, small pores, close endgrain, oil content, etc.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2014-07-01 01:23
Unfortunately, if you walk into a woodworkers store (Rockler, Woodcrafters, etc) and examine "grenadilla," you will be looking at a light brown, less dense, hardwood, likely sourced from Central America, and NOT Blackwood. It is a Platymiscium wood. Likewise, if you order woods from dealers who supply turners (pens, bowls) such as West Penn Hardwood, Packard, etc. you must order African Blackwood, and not Grenadilla.
There is a difference in the use of the words by woodwind players and woodcrafters. You must be specific.
http://www.woodworkerssource.com/ts-gran18-p-Granadillo.html
shows one species called Grenadillo (this company places an "o" on the end of the species), and it is NOT what you would want for your clarinet.
You would need to order this item http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blackwood_african.html to get the expected clarinet wood.
That being said, when a woodwind player speaks of "grenadilla" to another player , they mean the african blackwood mpingo species. You must be very careful when using the "G- word" to a wood supplier who is not familiar with the luthier trade.
Disclaimer I know what I am talking about, I make barrels, and rarely use Central American "true Grenadilla/o" (the wood supplier type), except for some that I make for a specific friend of one of this BB's leaders.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2014-07-01 04:21)
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-07-01 05:49
@silversorcerer, re:
>I have seen very few guitars of East Indian rosewood that were free from
> cracks or splits along the grain. That's OK on a guitar but kills a woodwind,
> so it is not the rosewood of discussion here. It's cheap but it don't work;-
> could be why it is cheap.
It has wide open pores and thus can crack if conditions change drastically. In woodwinds it actually works fine, but it needs to be oiled and sealed properly to reduce swings. Beautiful very dark sound, but not dimensionally stable, nightmare for mfg.
To add to what Allan said Grenadilla misnomer, even the same species could have quite big variation depending on conditions they grew in.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-07-01 08:25
Over in this Hemisphere just north of us is Indonesia. There is a type of Ebony that we often see here that is very similar to Mpingo but it seems to be not as dense. It's mainly used for ornaments such as Elephants and ornamental boxes ect. I regard it as lower grade Granadilla. You also often come across it at woodcraft shows where it is called Ebony.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-07-02 08:59
Yes Silversorcerer, that's the type of wood I"ve seen. We have a specialty shop in the local region called the Elephant Shop. It's at Cooranbong on the Central Coast NSW. They sell all sorts of ornaments made with this 'Ebony' including Elephants (of course and beautifully carved boxes ect. Even small pieces of furniture such as stools ect.
BJV.
"The Clarinet is not a horn"
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2014-07-02 09:01)
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-07-04 00:36
Hi Silversorcerer. Nice photographs. Yes. that's the wood type that they make the ornamental elephants and boxes ect out of. It's very attractive wood. The elephants are nearly always stained black , perhaps with black shoe polish. When you pick one of these up , it's fairly heavy for it's size. I call it Indonesian Ebony. I can imagine Clarinets being made out of it.
BJV
"The Clarinet is not a horn"
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2014-07-04 00:38)
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-07-04 02:03
do you play flatwounds or roundwounds?
some of the fretless fretboards (btw why do they call them fretboards on fretless?) are finished with very strong epoxy; doesn't matter how hard/soft underlying wood is the epoxy is strong. The best example of extra hard fretboard is the "dimondwood" - birch veneer glued with advanced resins.
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