 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-06-19 00:18
Several threads here on BBoard compare the difficulty of various works originally written for clarinet, or later adapted to it. And some of the Rose Etudes (never looked at one, certainly never played) are described as trying to force the player to ignore the inherent limitations of the instrument. Clearly that is the intent of any performance degree in any instrument- the high end player is not to care what interval, what key, what tempo- just suck it up and play it, and no whining either.
So I have a rather fundamental question- really just a curiosity. Do/did classical or modern composers write high end clarinet pieces with the limitations of the instrument in mind? I'm talking about some notes being inherently more stable, some intervals more likely to be clean at certain dynamics than others... that kind of stuff. And don't tell me any of you have gone beyond such limitations- whatever you can do on the toughest notes and intervals, you can do 2x or 3x on the easier ones- wherever you fall on the proficiency scale- right? (argument over that?)
Do they write on piano and just ignore what something means on a woodwind? Or do some go- "Oh that's an easy interval, I can make those 32nds not 16ths." Or do some actually deviously write harder than required... "This'll be fun to watch- chuckle chuckle." Or as I suspect, some of all of these. Which composers fall in which camp?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-06-19 03:09)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-06-19 00:39
In particular, I would like to know what high end clarinet pieces were artfully written to take maximum advantage of the instrument and the effort of the player. That is, for the level of difficulty of play- maximum playing enjoyment, lowest wasted energy, and maximum impact on the listener. If I were to ever consider studying anything outside the pop/jazz/gospel genre, it would have to rank very high on such a scale.
What well known works are obviously at the high end of this scale (maximum bang for the effort buck)? And which are at the low end (you work yourself to death for little or nothing)?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2014-06-19 00:42
I don't think it is a question of contemporary composers, but mindful composers. I just played a piece by a composer who clearly never read up on the clarinet, nor talked to a clarinetist. There were 3 trills, all of which she asked for forte, which the clarinet would never really be able to accomplish... unless she had put it on A clarinet. Any clarinet player worth their salt could have told her that seconds after looking at the piece.
The great pieces in our cannon were often written with consultation, that's the difference between great and good and mediocre. Brahms' clarinet sonatas wouldn't be what they are without his relationship with Muhlfeld or his experience writing for orchestra beforehand. Talking the musician's and taking their cues to change certain things is important.
Joan Tower wrote a lot of music for clarinet, all of it playable. She worked with Laura Flax for a long time and it shows in her work.
I think Maslanka writes in the realm of possibility, although it can be very hard at times.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-06-19 00:59
Almost all the Rose etudes were written for violin, which can bridge intervals easily by changing strings. Nevertheless, almost all of them work beautifully on clarinet.
More important, they're excellent music. Playing them helps you develop a sense of style and phrasing.
And most important, every clarinet teacher assigns them, so you have no choice whether to learn them.
And good composers don't substitute 32nds for 16ths simply because they lie well on the violin. They write what works in their ears. It's up to the players (violin or clarinet) to work out the difficult passages. You practice those passages just like you practice scales in the keys of F# and Db.
You can't become a good player until you can play the hard stuff and make it sound like the easy stuff.
Schmuck, turn off your computer and practice.
Ken Shaw
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-06-19 02:35
I have some vocal arrangements from 30 yr ago that I created on piano- velvety chords- but everybody who's tried to sing them found them impossible. Granted these weren't pro singers, but I do get it that even though I didn't require much range, I was asking for the nearly impossible in finding intervals, especially for the inside voices. We can play odd lines on instruments, but I didn't allow for the difficulty of doing that with mind and voice.
Many (all?) of our major works for piano were written by pianists, who I assume were able to perform them at least adequately. I think it odd that the equivalent is not true of clarinet works (is it?). Although as Timothy (TJTG) notes, you may do just as well with a collaboration between clarinetist and composer.
As I at a very elementary level work on my own improvised arrangements, and find myself substituting figure B for figure A because it works or sounds better ON THE CLARINET, where figure A is what I might have written or played on keyboard--- I know that this happens a zillion times over for more accomplished players in the non-classical realms. Maybe they can play their figure A, but it's more work for no benefit. Or after fiddling a while they come up with figure C that's even better. And I'm imagining that a classical composer for clarinet doing the composition ON THE CLARINET should compose circles around anybody working any other way. What's wrong with this line of argument? So- what major classical clarinet pieces were created by top end clarinetists? Honestly, I don't know- never studied the question.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-19 02:46
If you read about accomplished composers (or read about composers as you study harmony, voicing and orchestration), you find that it is a MUST to learn not only the ranges of the instruments but what works fundamentally for them as well.
I can tell you just from the last few weeks' examples of pieces put together by "Finale Rangers" who don't even seem to care if the piece they are presenting is actually on the page in the right key (for example: piece in "C" with all the Fs, Cs and Gs with sharps next to them) that awkward, poorly written music is by far the hardest to play.......because it inherently MAKES NO SENSE !!!!!!
So yes composers are very careful to nuance the parts they are writing for the instrument at hand. Really clear examples of GREAT orchestration can be found on the pages of Tchaikovsky and Rimsky Korsakov (just to get you started).
As for Rose I wouldn't say you HAVE to play them, but Bonade had stated that knowing the Rose is pretty much all you have to know to be a competent orchestral player. It's kinda like the ABCs or multiplication tables. You might be pretty brilliant without them but it's a good idea to have it under your belt.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: blazian
Date: 2014-06-19 02:53
Paul Hindemith made it a point to be at least familiar with all the instruments he wrote for. He wrote a sonata for most of the major instruments. His clarinet sonata is actually quite straightforward but sometimes I have a feeling he played an Oehler system (does anybody know?). Sometimes I feel like the piano part was written for another system too, but that's a different story.
- Martin
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-06-19 03:00
Of course there's an inherent unfairness in my question about clarinetists composing for clarinet. Unless you're writing a completely solo clarinet work, you will also be writing for all the other instruments in the orchestra- or at least for piano or something. And if you're not equally at home on those other instruments... well, we're back to square one.
And I didn't mean to pick on Rose. But reading about them, and imagining myself 40 yr ago if I had been a clarinet major playing them hours per day... made me flash back to my hated piano "finger exercises". Perhaps I would have grown to love them (and I really mean that- it could have happened). Either that, or like physicians who had to endure residency and so by golly all the newbies have to go through it too- either way I'd be making my students learn them too.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-06-19 03:04)
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The Clarinet Pages
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