 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-06-06 13:03
What do my friends on this board think about the artistic relevance of playing transcriptions and arrangements? I'm practising a transcription of Schumann's lovely "Fünf Stücke im Volkston" originally for cello. Seeing as we only have two Schumann chamber pieces originally for clarinet, it is good to have an additional one. The problem with transcriptions is that there is very often a passage or even a whole movement that doesn't really work on our instrument. What are your favourite transcriptions and/or arrangements?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2014-06-06 15:00
Robert Schumann: Three romances op. 94 for oboe and piano. Oboist Georg Meerwein, formerly Bamberg Symphoniker, edited them for clarinet and piano though he mentions in his preface that Schumann himself had declined this!
Published by G. Henle Verlag. Amazon or notenbuch.de, 11 Euros.
Listen to Albrecht Meyer/Helene Grimaud: Romances... on youtube.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-06 15:58
My feeling of this as a whole is that transcriptions enable another player or set of players to experience wonderful music that the would otherwise not be able to access. That then means the same for their audience. So for me it is a practical consideration rather than a moral one or even one of which version is "best" for an instrument.
I still hope to play the Strauss Oboe Concerto some day......oboists be damned!!!
............Paul Aviles
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Author: sax panther
Date: 2014-06-06 16:16
transcriptions/arrangements are great...a bit of Bach is good for the fingers!
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-06-06 16:30
Schubert's Arpeggione Sonata works wonderfully on clarinet, and even better on bass clarinet. There are some string-crossing passages that don't lie well, and you need a perfectly controlled altissimo A6, but all of that is doable. You must also at least consider using some vibrato.
I love Kreisler's Sicilienne & Rigaudon. It's an encore piece, though, and the second part calls for a light, fast staccato at a time when you're tired.
I agree about the Schumann romances. The inexpensive Schirmer edition even comes with a part for clarinet (in A). You must really let the sentiment flow. As MichaelW says, listen to Albrecht Meyer and Helene Grimaud to hear how they should be done https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOGvHTXY2Us.
The Brahms Violin Sonata #3 will work, but it calls for much more passion than clarinetists are used to giving. Listen to Isaac Stern, for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khd3CxoVQ30.
Reginald Kell transcribed a delightful Gigue by Corelli (originally for violin) and a Sicilienne and Gigue by Handel (originally for recorder). He played them particularly well, too.
Ken Shaw
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-06-06 20:30
Kell recorded some delightful Kreisler pieces also......
Bob Draznik
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2014-06-06 20:54
I love orchestral transcriptions for band...except that the clarinets usually get the violin parts with, of course, no place to take a breath!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-06-06 21:45
I'd love to play the Strauss oboe concerto on soprano sax!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-06-06 22:24
Bach and many other great composers often made versions of their compositions for a whole range of different instruments so I see no problem whatsoever in playing suitable transcriptions.
The Schubert appeggione sonata does work very well for clarinet and although de Peyer in many pieces was not my favourite player his version of the sonata is in my view very fine.
I also like the Kell arrangement of the Corelli gigue and it is certainly more manageable for me.
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2014-06-06 23:29
Bach's Cello Suites are often used for Bass Clarinet (and low brass, etc!) and playing a part intended for another instrument broadens my expression on clarinet and gives me more appreciation for the other instruments.
I think actually doing the transcription/arrangement yourself will give you still more freedom, flexibility and artistic license.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-06-06 23:36
MichaelW wrote:
>> Robert Schumann: Three romances op. 94 for oboe and piano. Oboist Georg Meerwein, formerly Bamberg Symphoniker, edited them for clarinet and piano though he mentions in his preface that Schumann himself had declined this!>>
Here's the quote:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/lookup.php/Klarinet/2002/06/000766.txt
I wrote more about this on the Klarinet list. But here, I would like to ask: WHY did Schumann have this opinion -- in your opinions?
Do you learn anything by thinking about this?
Tony
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2014-06-07 01:23
Distressing to read Schumann's condemnation, since I've always thought that the romances are in some ways better suited to the clarinet than to the oboe. Particularly the first one, with its pp echo effects, seems such a natural fit to what the clarinet can do. If you listen to the Albrecht Mayer youtube recording mentioned above, he hardly changes dynamics at all 32s in when p is supposed to become pp. I think it's a nice effect to have musically, but it's clearly a lot harder for the oboe to achieve.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-06-07 01:53
>> Distressing to read Schumann's condemnation, since I've always thought that the romances are in some ways better suited to the clarinet than to the oboe.>>
As I said before:
"I would like to ask: WHY did Schumann have this opinion -- in your opinions?"
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-06-07 02:27
By the way, "Schumann's CONDEMNATION"???
He just said he wanted it played on the oboe, and not on the clarinet.
Now, whilst of course you can make out a case that everyone has a RIGHT TO THEIR OPINION, I don't think I'm wrong to elevate my interest in Schumann's opinion above my interest in John Peacock's opinion -- or indeed, above my interest in MY opinion.
I rather want to INFORM my opinion, via consideration of Schumann's.
So, my question stands. WHY did Schumann have that opinion?
Tony
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-06-07 02:39
Chris P "I'd love to play the Strauss oboe concerto on soprano sax!
It's a pity that the C Soprano Sax is so rare nowadays. One could play all the Oboe Concertos by Albinoni and Vivaldi on it.
Skyfacer
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2014-06-07 03:52
In college, I played a transcription of Marcello's (which one? it's debated) Oboe Concerto in C Minor. It was written for soprano sax, but worked just fine on clarinet.
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Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-06-07 07:30
Tony -
I have some thoughts about the Schumann Romances, but I'd much rather have *your thoughts.* I'm sure I will agree with what you have to say.
Ken Shaw
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-06-07 09:01
My teacher-a hundred years ago-didn't think Schumann's Romances worked all that well on the clarinet because the composer was obviously playing a lot on the use of octaves. The oboe has an octave key, whereas we have a register key and oboe writing tends to exploit the use of octaves more than clarinet writing. I might add that Schumann's music, wonderful though it is, doesn't seem perfectly suited to any instrument, which makes it lend itself so well to all sorts of transcriptions. His Fantasy pieces for clarinet are part of the standard cello repertory, for example.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-06-07 11:16
One matter that hasn't been addressed is the attitude of purists, for whom any transcription is anathema; sacrilege. You don't play an 18th century piece on the "modern" clarinet, let alone play a transcription. It is true that some transcriptions do sound awful. I have in mind all those Chopin pieces that were played and recorded by major violinists and cellists in the 30s, for example.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-06-07 11:24
The Schumann Romances for oboe and piano are not so easy for the oboist because there are few rests, making endurance a factor.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2014-06-07 13:04
Tony,
> elevate my interest in Schumann's opinion above my interest in John Peacock's opinion
I hope it didn't seem like I was trying to imply that I knew better than Schumann.
I'm just admitting defeat: the Schumann quote seems to imply that he felt the romances were somehow out of character for the clarinet, but when I try to find such uncharacteristic passages, I'm more struck by things that do seem very well suited. Perhaps others can be more discerning.
Is there any corresponding sanction regarding the fantasiestucke? Presumably these were written very much with the clarinet in mind, and yet I've heard them done extremely well on e.g. the Cello. Up till now, I had the impression that Schumann had possessed the knack of writing chamber music that was highly transferrable between instruments. It would be interesting to understand why he felt the romances to be an exception.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-06-07 13:09
>> My teacher-a hundred years ago-didn't think Schumann's Romances worked all that well on the clarinet because the composer was obviously playing a lot on the use of octaves.>>
Good point. Schumann could have thought the seamless oboe octave 'upward float' too expressively important to want to accept losing it.
Anything else?
Tony
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2014-06-07 13:37
Fourty years ago I fell in love with that melancholic, partly funny (somebody said duck-like) sound of the oboe, but hadn't enough free time (two hours daily?) and stamina to stay with it. I think Robert Schumann had that specific mood in mind, but as even renowned oboist Georg Meerwein found a transcription forgivable I enjoy playing the Romanzen as best I can.. perhaps even with a bit of vibrato when my teacher doesn’t listen.
These days I transcribed Händel’s “Fitzwilliams” Sonata in B Flat, written about 1725 for recorder, from my old Schott/ Thurston Dart oboe edition. Of course, as usual in these days, it is not specific for one instrument; I think Händel wouldn’t have objected against the use of a clarinet as, 125 years later, Schumann did - if he had had one.
I find the Händel sonata rewarding for clarinet if you like old music- and also “good for the fingers”. And the pianist finds it less strenuous than Schumann.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-06-07 17:37
A fuller appreciation of the context of the life of any piece would be that it isn't just 'on the clarinet' and 'on the oboe'; rather, it is 'played by a clarinettist on the clarinet' and 'played by an oboist on the oboe'.
Compare 'on the French clarinet'/'on the German clarinet'. I've remarked before here that excellent playing on these two systems isn't so dissimilar.
Tony
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-06-07 20:27
Mozart wrote a Concerto (K.314) in two versions. One for the Flute in D major and the other for the Oboe in C major. The Oboe version is possibly the original.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-06-07 20:53
I have often played the viola part on the A-clarinet of Brahms Two Songs for alto with viola obbligato (opus 91, if I remember right). The only trouble is that once or twice, it goes down to C-real notes. This is often the difficulty we run up against when transcribing viola parts. Oh to be boundlessly rich and have a basset clarinet!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2014-06-07 22:34
Barry, I was just thinking about the same Mozart concerto.
The Copland violin sonata sounds great in its clarinet version, and the composer was also pleased. I also enjoy the clarinet version of the Vaughan Williams Six Studies in English Folk Song.
I wonder how Robert Schumann would have felt about Fred Hemke's alto sax
version of the Three Romances. In the hands of a good player, it's very nice.
One transcription that doesn't thrill me is the clarinet version of the Prokofiev flute/violin sonata, which has also been transcribed for clarinet and orchestra. I've heard some excellent recordings, but for some reason, it sounds more like a flute piece to me (nothing against flutes!).
I once heard a recording of one of the Brahms clarinet sonatas played by a french horn. It was a good horn player and he played it well, but for me, it didn't work at all.
The Cesar Franck violin sonata is wonderful music, and it has also been played on an assortment of other instruments. Someone once created a clarinet version, but for some reason, it never caught on, and I'm not sure why. There's a saxophone performance on YouTube that's very nice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyUjV6fN2Ag
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-06-07 23:11
>> I wonder how Robert Schumann would have felt about Fred Hemke's alto sax
version of the Three Romances.>>
It's difficult to know. He wouldn't have had the baggage that comes with the saxophone for us; and he was happy for the Romances to be played on the violin.
In fact, the first performance was on a violin.
My vote would be for the soprano saxophone, which as others have said does rather well in oboe music. (WHY????)
>> In the hands of a good player, it's very nice.>>
Yes; that's what I was trying to get at in my previous post. The big difference between the French and German systems lies in HOW THEY GO WRONG when badly handled.
Though I don't play the Romances in concert myself, I find myself teaching them, and so have to address the oboe/clarinet question.
I was sort of asking you to guess WHAT I MIGHT SAY...:-)
Tony
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-06-07 23:18
This same issue arises in other types of music... especially vocals. Ever heard a "pro" sing somebody else's old hit they didn't have the chops for? Of course you have. It's kind of the same issue, wrong instrument for the tune.
Here's another example. Pinetop Smith is credited with inventing some basic piano boogie woogie (though I bet he heard much or all of it from others). This is a classic 1928 recording:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDp9cOLxYv0
After boogie woogie hit it big, many others played "Pinetop's Boogie Woogie". This is "Boogie Woogie Stomp" from Albert Ammons in 1939, which I think was also much imitated. Same basic idea with more of a "get down" feel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkD2k5RmC94
Boogie woogie got worn out eventually, but enjoyed a brief revival in the 1940's. And the big bands had to get in on the action. Which brings us here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt-dfPnBeLE
And to me, it almost is sad. It doesn't fit the instrumentation and is so obviously just trying to hop on the bandwagon. I love almost everything the Glenn Miller orchestra played- why did they feel the need to do this? Did they enjoy doing it? Am I the only one with this criticism?
So be aware that if you play something on clarinet that everybody remembers as sounding wonderful on kazoo- it may not be well received.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-06-07 23:20)
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Author: JKL
Date: 2014-06-08 00:42
>The big difference between the French and German systems lies in HOW THEY GO WRONG when badly handled.<
Tony Pay - It's going off-topic, but could you elaborate a bit what you mean by that? (as a German system player interested in not going wrong!)
JKL
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-06-08 01:35
JKL wrote:
>> ...as a German system player interested in not going wrong!>>
:-)
I don't think I can characterise that in any helpful way. All I meant was that in my experience a badly played French clarinet sounds MORE different from a badly played German clarinet than a well played French clarinet from a well played German clarinet.
So if the playing is bad, I think I'm more likely to be able to tell whether it's a French or a German clarinet.
Tony
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-06-08 02:24
Just for my own personal use, I've transposed the following Bassoon works for Bb Clarinet. They make excellent studies for the Clarinet as well as having great melodies in them. Of course , I've had to drop out the very lowest notes in these works but surprisingly there's not all that many of them. These composers fully realised the beauty of the higher range of the Bassoon.
The Clarinet of course sounds an octave higher than the original Bassoon solo.
Mozart Bassoon Concerto K.191
Weber Bassoon Concerto Op 75
Weber Andante & Rondo for Bassoon Op 35
Hummel Bassoon Concerto
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2014-06-08 03:47
"The big difference between the French and German systems lies in HOW THEY GO WRONG when badly handled."
This made me laugh out loud in agreement. My opinion is that, because of the (slightly) different fingering systems, (slightly) different intonation "hot spots" and different resistances of the instruments (in general), those who aren't competent will not be able to neutralize the various difficulties, thereby exposing which type of instrument they're playing. Competent players will work towards similar musical goals, regardless of equipment, and because of this will sound more similar. To a lesser degree this can be heard between Albert and Boehm jazz players as well.
The problem is similar to bad drummers. I remember being in an orchestra once, performing Holst's "Mars", when the conductor stopped, glared at the snare drummer, and said "We know you have both a right and a left hand. Now would you stop reminding us?" Good drummers don't show which hand they're playing with--good clarinetists don't have trouble with standard fingering combinations.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-06-08 08:59
Good. Well said, Eric:-)
So, finally, what I'm getting at is, what's different about how oboes and clarinets 'go wrong', in general?
Put another way, what natural tendencies of these instruments might Schumann have been exploiting/not exploiting in the Romances?
Why might he not have objected to the saxophone version?
What I say to students is: we know that Schumann didn't want it PUBLISHED as 'a piece for clarinet'. So, if you're going to play it, try to approach it in such a way that he might have responded, "Well, of course, if you play it like THAT..."
Finally: what way is 'that'?-)
Tony
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2014-06-08 09:24
Tone between octaves and vibrato. Just a tired thought before I go to bed.
AAAClarinet
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-06-08 12:37
I would just like to add, or rather conclude, by saying that there are all sorts of transcriptions that I play for my personal pleasure, but would never dream of playing in concert. I play the hautbois d'amour parts to the Bach cantatas on the A clarinet with great enjoyment, but would I do this in public? The answer is a resounding "no"; you couldn't get away with doing that sort of thing any more. The exception is works that were transcribed by the composer himself or by another major composer. I have in mind Schönberg's great Kammersymphonie arranged for five instruments by Webern, if I'm not mistaken. One would imagine that Webern made this arrangement this with Schönberg's blessing.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-06-08 13:14
>> I love orchestral transcriptions for band...except that the clarinets usually get the violin parts with, of course, no place to take a breath! <<
You can also pla ythe viola part.
http://youtu.be/rOMp6Z9af5E
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-06-09 00:44
(With my tongue firmly stuck in my cheek) I've read that these Romances were composed as love songs between Clara (the solo part) and Robert (the piano part). Maybe he suspected some clarinet player of having an interest in Clara's attentions.
I can think of two reasons why Schumann might have preferred an oboe to a clarinet, although I don't think either really strongly disqualifies a clarinet from playing these effectively.
One reason these three songs may work to the advantage of either the oboe or the violin is the range. The movements are composed with an oboe range in mind (excepting the few low As that appear in the 3rd ROmance meant for a violinist). Transposed for a Bb clarinet, some notes in the first Romance might have been a little strident for a clarinet of Schumann's time. More than that, however, without some rewriting none of the music provides any opportunity to use the clarinet's chalumeau range, which Schumann may have felt would have been a failure to exploit one of the clarinet's great strengths.
Another possibility I've read is that the phrase lengths throughout the 3 Romances are idiomatic for an oboe (which uses air very slowly) and certainly for a violin, but might be harder to manage for a clarinet. The pieces can certainly be managed on a clarinet, but maybe with more breaths inserted than Schumann might have preferred.
One trouble for us in the 21st century when we try to channel what Schumann really thought about this is that most of us have too little experience with the strengths and weaknesses of 19th century instruments or the limitations of mid-19th century clarinet technique to really know what would have been problematic for the clarinetists Schumann was familiar with.
Karl
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-06-09 01:36
Bravo Karl; although I've been after something much simpler.
The fundamental difference between the oboe and the clarinet is that the former has a conical bore, and the latter a cylindrical bore.
That means that it's hard to play quietly and expressively in the low register of the oboe – Dvorak's second oboe parts are notoriously difficult, for example – whilst it's easy to play quietly and expressively in the low register of the clarinet.
Contrariwise, it's hard to play loudly and assertively in the high register of the oboe – the oboist has to make a big effort to sit effectively on the top of the ensemble in the Gran Partitta – whereas the clarinet dominates easily in that register.
The tessitura therefore has a different function on the oboe and on the clarinet. Whilst it's true that an excellent oboe player may be able to really sing out high phrases, and an excellent clarinet player suppress them, going up high on the oboe tends to make the sound more intimate, and going up high on the clarinet tends to make the sound LESS intimate. (Remember the trickly repeated concert G's going into the last movement of Beethoven V, followed by the effortless C's of the oboe.)
And the reverse for the lower register. The standard woofy low register of the neophyte clarinettist simply doesn't cut it in the Schumann Romances.
Following on from some of my recent posts, it's instructive to notice that this oboe/clarinet difference can be seen as an example of Gregory Bateson's idea of 'end-linkage'. There is a tendency for dynamic and register to be linked in opposite directions on the two instruments.
That's the same sort of abstract relationship that Bateson noticed in English and American cultures between parents and children:Quote:
In 1942 many of us were interested in "national character" and the contrast between England and America fortunately brought into focus the fact that "spectatorship" is in England a filial characteristic, linked with dependency and submission, while in America spectatorship is a parental characteristic linked with dominance and succoring.
This hypothesis, which I called "end-linkage," marked a turning point in my thinking. From that time on, I have consciously focused upon the qualitative structure of contexts rather than upon intensity of interaction. Above all, the phenomena of endlinkage showed that contextual structures could themselves be messages—an important point which is not made in the 1942 article. An Englishman when he is applauding another is indicating or signaling potential submission and/or dependency; when he shows off or demands spectatorship, he is signaling dominance or superiority; and so on. Every Englishman who writes a book must be guilty of this. For the American, the converse must hold. His boasting is but a bid for quasiparental approval.
Steps to an Ecology of Mind So, when I look at the Romances, I can see how an excellent clarinet player might understand and therefore seek to follow Schumann's appreciation of the difference between the two instruments.
Schumann's letter to his publishers, if you are such a player, would therefore be an important clue as to how to approach playing the Romances.
(That is, if you were to decide that you MUST:-)
Tony
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-06-09 02:38
Lets keep things simple here. Anthony Baines in his Woodwind Instruments and Their History (Page 91) has stated :-
"This short two-foot conical-bore, coupled to a double reed, is not one to yield a spectacular range of compass, and even after all the recent improvements the Oboe still has the smallest compass of the four woodwind instruments. But into this compass is packed a telling vividness and intensity of character unapproached by any other wind instrument. The Oboe is the only woodwind instrument that is virtually impossible to play without felt expression, and in it's broad espressivo the tone can be swelled almost to bursting point without any trace of harshness creeping in"
Now you know why it was that Schumann choose the Oboe instead of the Clarinet in his Romances.
BJV
"The Clarinet is not a horn"
(Neither is the Oboe)
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2014-06-09 02:49)
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-06-09 04:23
I have the G. Henle Verlag edition of Schumann's Romances transcribed for Clarinet in A. This puts these pieces in the keys of Eb / C / Eb & Ab respectively. The Eb for the 1st Romance and the Eb & Ab for the 3rd Romance is unfortunate. It would have been better to have had the first and last one transcribed for Clarinet in Bb. Hence the key signatures would be D / D & G.
The 2nd Romance is still a problem as the Oboe is in A. Here , the Clarinet in A wins out but if transcribed for the Bb , it'd be in B (5 sharps).
So you can see where the problem is in playing these pieces on Bb or A Clarinet.
But here's a thought. Why not play them on the C Clarinet ?
Key problem solved.
BJV
"The Clarinet is not a horn"
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2014-06-09 04:27)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2014-06-09 04:26
"... the Oboe still has the smallest compass of the four woodwind instruments. But into this compass is packed a telling vividness and intensity of character unapproached by any other wind instrument."
... except, perhaps, the soprano saxophone (or a similar tarogato) which has (allowing for the difference in key) virtually the same range as the oboe, a conical bore that overblows an octave, no thumb hole, a relatively small reed/mouthpiece, plateau keys and a similar timbre, probably due to the aforementioned similarities in design. Hence, I think, the relative success of the soprano sax as an ersatz oboe.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2014-06-09 05:02)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-06-09 04:38
The soprano sax is an oboe in disguise? Who woulda thought it?
And Boots Randolph actually would have preferred bassoon, but Elvis wouldn't let it into his studio sessions- so he brought a tenor sax instead.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-06-09 04:43
Jack ,
Anthony Baines was referring to the basic quartet of orchestral woodwinds (Flute/Oboe/Clarinet/Bassoon).
However I agree with you about the Soprano Saxophone. It's a pity that the C Soprano Sax is such a rarity now . Apparently this was one of the original set of Saxophones by Adolphe Sax (The C / F set) Now almost completely replaced by the Bb / Eb set , except perhaps for the C 'Melody' Tenor Saxophone.
Even though the Soprano Saxophone is bit on the wild side as far as intonation is concerned this seems not to be a problem when played by a skilled Saxophonist. I've heard some really lovely solos on this instrument.
Kenny G comes to mind
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-06-09 12:25
I remember having some success with a student on a course in Spain, once; he was playing these Romances, and understood them quite well, I thought.
But after his performance in the concert, the local clarinet teacher was having none of it. "Far too small a sound in the upper register!" he said.
So it goes.
Tony
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Author: tacet
Date: 2014-06-09 14:09
Coming back to
>> He just said he wanted it played on the oboe, and not on the clarinet.
Having read up on the various works Schumann wrote in 1849 for "piano plus X", I am under the impression that Schumann was quite happy with alternatives fo "X". It is known that he actually provided some of those alternate parts himself (cello and violin parts for the horn pieces), or worked with instrumentalists to develop them (violin arrangements of the cello and viola pieces, which sometimes even included changing the piano part to make it sound better). Moreover, all of the publications were authorized with multiple "X" parts.
As I read it, the mail exchange between Schumann and his publisher was only about the question whether in the publication of op. 94 the different alternate parts that were planned could be represented as equivalent "orginaliter" pieces. This is what the publisher asked for (namely not to mention the oboe on the other parts).
Schumann did not allow this, explaining that his compositions were idiomatic for the respective primary instrument. Indeed, I understand that he worked on them with wind soloists of the local orchestra, and that there is even a remark in the "Haushaltsbücher" suggesting that he might have envisaged something similar to Hindemiths "Sonatenwerk".
So my understanding of that notorious letter is: Schumann only wanted to make clear that the clarinet and violin parts (he refers to both of them in his reply) should be considered as arrangements. He did in my opinion not discourage playing them.
(tacet)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-06-09 15:01
>> although I've been after something much simpler. <<
Hmm... I prefer this reason:
>> I've read that these Romances were composed as love songs between Clara (the solo part) and Robert (the piano part). Maybe he suspected some clarinet player of having an interest in Clara's attentions. <<
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2014-06-09 16:58
@Barry Vincent: My used Henle/Meerwein edition of Drei Romanzen from 1988 contains parts for Bb and A clarinet for all three, as well as the actual edition from G. Henle Verlag.
Post Edited (2014-06-09 16:59)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-06-09 17:11
(tacet) wrote:
>> So my understanding of that notorious letter is: Schumann only wanted to make clear that the clarinet and violin parts (he refers to both of them in his reply) should be considered as arrangements.>>
That sounds like you have more of the letter than I've seen. I haven't managed to chase up the reference given in the Henle preface:Quote:
Schumann's reply, dated 24 November, is reported in Wolfgang Boettischer's _Robert Schumann: Einfuehrung in Personlichkeit un Werk_ (Berlin 1941), although the original letter has been lost: "If I had originally written the work for clarinet and piano it would have become a completely different piece. I regret not being able to comply with your wishes, but I can do no other." You can see that there's no mention of a violin in the bit quoted.
Can you give us what you have, perhaps with your translation, if it's in German?
Tony
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Author: tacet
Date: 2014-06-09 18:03
Tony,
I have taken this information from the preface of the current Henle Edition of the Romances, of which the publishers offer the full text for download on their website (including a translation better than everything I could come up with). Don't know whether it is legal to put the link here -- but it ranks very high in the search engines anyway.
According to this source, indeed the original letters -- quoted as missing in your reference (and my older ones as well) -- have now turned up. It seems that the publisher asked whether Schumann would be OK with labelling the editions "for oboe and piano", "for violin and piano" and "for clarinet and piano" respectively. To which Schumann replied "... if I had originally written for violin or clarinet ..." etc.
Which actually suggests that the clarinet alternative was agreed before between Schumann and the publisher.
Best regards
(tacet)
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Author: Tony Pay
Date: 2014-06-09 18:40
Thanks very much, (tacet). Totally understandable, and an example of what this Forum could be if more people took it more seriously.
The effect is to exonerate the publishers, whose reported behaviour previously sounded very much as though they'd deliberately gone against Schumann's wishes. I'm sorry for my part in besmirching their name.
I still find it interesting to imagine WHAT SORT OF CLARINET PLAYING suits the piece best – as indeed I do routinely anyway, I suppose. A good example of that is the third movement of the Saint-Saens sonata, where the high register version of the tune could almost be thought to need a piccolo-like quality to match the piano sonority – whatever my Spanish clarinet teacher colleague might think about my producing it;-)
Tony
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Author: JKL
Date: 2014-06-09 19:09
>>According to this source, indeed the original letters -- quoted as missing in your reference (and my older ones as well) -- have now turned up. It seems that the publisher asked whether Schumann would be OK with labelling the editions "for oboe and piano", "for violin and piano" and "for clarinet and piano" respectively.<<
tacet - I cannot follow you.
Here is the current preface from Henle:
http://www.henle.de/media/foreword/0442.pdf
It is identical to my very old Henle edition - no mention of the violin in the correspondence between Schumann and Simrock. Any other source?
JKL
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Author: tacet
Date: 2014-06-09 19:29
I didn't notice this before but the editions offered by Henle have different prefaces. The above link with 0442 replaced by 0816 is what I mean.
Sorry for the confusion.
(tacet)
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Author: JKL
Date: 2014-06-09 20:37
I see - thank you tacet and Tony.
The current editions for clarinet and oboe have- at least online - still a preface without mentioning the violin, only the edition for violin has the citation which includes the violin - not a commendable handling of source material....)
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Author: Jobro97
Date: 2014-07-18 13:23
For transcriptions, I really like them.
I first listened to my first transcription of Eddie Daniels playing Four Seasons by Vivaldi and after listening too it on violin I think it sounds better on clarinet
Same goes goes with the Cimarosa Oboe Concerto in Andreas Ottensamer's recent album "Portraits"
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Author: clarinetguy
Date: 2014-07-18 19:44
Yes Chris, I agree. There's a lot of Baroque music that sounds wonderful on the sax when played well. Marcel Mule once performed the trumpet part (I think it was on soprano sax) for the second Brandenburg Concerto.
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Author: Filettofish
Date: 2014-07-19 01:30
As a bass clarinet player, I am all too familiar with performance of transcribed solo pieces. Anything written for cello normally sounds great. I enjoy transcriptions of Bach's six cello suites, and the Glazunov arrangement of Chopin's Etude No. 7, Op. 25. Bassoon pieces also sound rather nice on bass clarinet, I've performed Mozart's Concerto in B flat K 191 as well as a version of Beethoven's duets for clarinet and bassoon, playing the transposed bassoon part on bass clarinet.
Post Edited (2014-07-19 01:31)
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-07-19 03:00
I went searching in Utube for the theme of the TV series Rumpole of the Bailey. It is a delightful Bassoon quartet including a double (Contra) Bassoon.
All I could get was a Clarinet quartet doing it. What a disappointment.
The whole 'feel' of the piece was ruined. Clarinets are not good enough to do this piece. It has to be Bassoons which conjure up the whole image of this craggy old English barrister.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-07-20 00:36
Most of us are in the market for clarinet-bassoon duets, as clarinetists and bassoonists get along very well musically and otherwise. I recommend transposing for clarinet and bassoon: 1. The 6 Haydn Duos for two clarinets (Great stuff! -full of invention and life; works as well for clarinet and bassoon as for two clarinets). 2. The Rossini duets for two bassoons arranged by Gebauer. These are based on famous aria by the composer.
You will have to do the work yourselves, as these pieces have not been published for clarinet and bassoon.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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The Clarinet Pages
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