 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tiberiuclrn
Date: 2014-06-02 18:44
As I have had the opportunity to play in orchestra more and more, I have become curious as to how the greats in the orchestra world are able to get such a strong core in their sound. It's not just loud volume but they are able to create a huge, wide core sound, with seamless and smooth flowing phrases. I can phrase beautifully at a chamber music volume, but the ability to do it at an orchestral forte level still eludes me. Is there any way to direct my practicing to achieve this sound? I am pretty sure that it is something that can be developed.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2014-06-02 19:38
Please elaborate Paul for the OP. Shouting "AIR, AIR, AIR" helps no one.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Tiberiuclrn
Date: 2014-06-02 20:03
I think it has to do with the efficiency of air use rather than sheer volume, and how well a phrase is supported from down below. I suppose there should be no other change in other fundamentals such as embouchure,
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2014-06-02 20:04
much of it is done with superb acoustics, such as Orchestra Hall in Boston, etc. Recorded music can be processed almost without limit. And then there is the ear.
richard smith
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-06-02 20:24
Tiberiuclrn wrote:
> how the greats in the
> orchestra world are able to get such a strong core in their
> sound. It's not just loud volume but they are able to create a
> huge, wide core sound, with seamless and smooth flowing
> phrases.
I'm interested to know which "greats in the orchestra world" you have in mind as models. I don't ask to be argumentative, but the world of high level orchestral playing includes many different kinds of sound, not all of which would I characterize as having "a huge, wide core sound." As I understand the words, that's only one sound concept among many possibilities.
Are you listening to live performances or (possibly amped up) recordings?
I'm not trying to attack your question. I only think that trying to answer it requires some refinement of terms.
I'm also not entirely sure what "chamber music volume" means, but I'll pass on that in order to get at the meaning of a huge, wide core sound and who you feel exemplifies it.
Karl
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Author: Tiberiuclrn
Date: 2014-06-02 21:11
I'm referring to players like Loren Kitt of the NSO, who has an incredible ability to play any dynamic and be heard very clearly. It's his ability to project while at the same time sounding beautiful that I'm after. Frank Cohen, whose playing I wish to model is another such example.
I am referring to live performances of course. As for dynamics, I was merely using chamber as way to describe a softer more intimate dynamic than used in orchestra. Hope it helps clear that up.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-02 22:11
I'm glad you asked:
Firstly one MUST (no question here) actively PUSH from the core. The use of the abdominal muscles in actively pushing the air you took in with your diaphragm is a MUST. My latest analogy is a full tube of toothpaste. It's one thing to get your lungs full of air, it is another thing entirely to move it out.....you need to SQUEEZE.
Then one should focus the air column as much as possible. That is, a smaller aperture causes the same volume of air to move quicker (which IS desirable). So leaving the tongue in a more natural position or having it in the position as if you were vocalizing the sound "EEEEEE." The opposite to this (or less desirable position) would be as if you were vocalizing the sound "AHHHH." This is a two fold problem. Firstly, it begs a diffuse channel of air (equates to SLOWER air). The second problem is that it actually puts more of the back of the tongue down your throat which actually BLOCKS the free flow of air (bad, very bad).
And finally, you should tongue the reed with the very tip of your tongue to the very tip of the reed. This is the final and probably the most important aspect to focusing the air at the most important point......where the reed and mouthpiece come together to generate the initial sound.
There are those of you of different schools of thought (more notably in the UK) who can produce wonderful styles of clarinet playing with a less focused air column. Since I have not studied with one of these clarinet players I can only speak for those who are of the "French/American" (and possibly even more precisely "the Mid-western") school of clarinet playing.
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: Tiberiuclrn
Date: 2014-06-02 22:36
Thank you very much for the detailed response. I have been exploring most of what you have mentioned, and I am working on turning all of the concepts into habit. That being said I like the toothpaste tube analogy, and the way you worded the tongue position explanation.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-06-02 22:50
>I'm referring to players like Loren Kitt of the NSO
concert hall @Kennedy center actually has good acoustics... you don't have to be loud to be heard
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-03 06:39
Musicians adapt their playing to the hall, not the other way around.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2014-06-03 18:57
Suggestion: Play in a quartet with 3 Brass. This helped my loudness (and pitch at that loudness), then later, I try to refine that sound.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2014-06-05 06:00
It's an interesting subject that I think does not have a single answer. I've heard the reason that Anthony Gigilioti ended up getting the tone he was noted for was because he was having trouble projecting in the Old Philadelphia Academy of Music. So he used harder reeds with a closed facing and lot and lots of "air". When I took some lessons with him I was amazed how loud he was able to play when he demonstrated how to breath in and blow out, but in his studio, it sounded very forced to me. I think many players do tend to adapt their reeds and equipment to the hall they play in. I think it's just natural to want to hear what you're looking for in the hall you play in the most. And of course the conductor can have some influence on a players projection. Some always give a player the hand and others encourage the player to play out more. My experience as the bass clarinet player in the Baltimore Symphony was that some conductors either rarely said anything to me about projection but our last conductor, M. Alsop, usually asked me to play less.
As far as how to get a bigger projecting sound without forcing and playing very bright is one of the mystery's of why some players are just so much better than others. But, if you have the concept in your inner ear of what you want to sound like, or emulate, you have to experiment with finding the right mouthpiece - reed combination for you. Of course you have to have good breath support, that goes without saying, and you have to keep the air passing through your throat and mouth without constriction. If you play with little or no resistance a person tends not to support enough because it's too easy to play but if the resistance is to much you have to force and will have difficulty playing softly and articulating. Good breath support, opened throat, good embouchure good tongue position, that depends on the size of your tongue, and the right equipment for YOU to achieve what you hear.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-05 15:30
Dear Ed,
"As far as how to get a bigger projecting sound without forcing and playing very bright is one of the mystery's of why some players are just so much better than others."
It is easy to really "get into the weeds" on this one. There is also the distinct difference between what YOU hear and what projects. A professional colleague of mine of unparalleled ability was convinced a mouthpiece of his was too buzzy and set it in a drawer. Years later he and another friend of his were playing with equipment and the friend tried out the 'drawer mouthpiece.' It sounded pretty amazing to my friend so he decided to give it another try, playing it in a recording Wenger module and in an orchestral context. Everyone who was listening to him told him he sounded better, louder. He still just hears all this buzzing in his head.
Go figure.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Tiberiuclrn
Date: 2014-06-05 16:47
Thank you very much Mr. Palanker and Mr. Aviles for your descriptions. I definitely agree that "There is also the distinct difference between what YOU hear and what projects.", and I have a hard time in the practice room telling if I sounds better on a "buzzier" reed or a smooth "covered" reed, (even after recording my playing). I've been trying to get different viewpoints on the subject before I go to Tanglewood so that I can be ready to be heard in works like Mahler 5 and Till Eulenspiegel. If it depends so much on the hall, then I guess that there is little other way to prepare other than supporting the pressure of the air and adapting on the spot.
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2014-06-06 00:40
A danger in this whole question is to try to "emulate" what you want to hear and get in the habit, however innocently, of doing something wrong to get what you want. I mean wrong in the sense of doing something incorrectly. For a simple example, let's say it's about focus and volume and you decide to blow more through the instrument but rather than coming from the diaphragm, you're blowing from the throat. Does that make sense? That's why it's so important to hone these skills with a proper teacher - to be getting the ends through the right means. If you're not already studying with a private teacher (I went to high school in Alexandria - if your IP address is an indication of where you're from) there are many, many fine clarinet teachers in that area.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-06 04:13
I don't know how you can blow from your throat since there are no voluntary muscles that push air in the throat. I also know of no way the diaphragm can help you beyond getting air into the lungs since this bell shaped muscle when contracted ONLY creates a larger thoracic cavity (which in turn forces the lungs to expand). That's INTAKE only, not outflow.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2014-06-08 07:09
The throat can only constrict or allow the air to pass through freely. If a person is breathing properly, that is taking in the proper amount of air for the passage and exhaling it through the instrument with proper pressure, not forcing but using enough diaphragm pressure and support to push the air into the mouthpiece, then the tone is formed in the throat, and the oral cavity and placed into the mouthpiece via the embouchure. Every factor of the mouth, tongue, throat, oral cavity and lip position has something to do with making the tone assuming the breathing process is good.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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