 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2014-05-27 10:34
Greetings!
I was curious as to the best way to break in new clarinet reeds (Specifically for my case, however this most likely applies to many). I play Vandoren V12 3 1/2's and find that a majority of the time I get 1 great reed, 2 good reeds, and the rest end up acting very poor. What's the best way to "break in" and care for your reeds without using specific tools (Think household items or no tools at all). I really need to suck every last bit of value out of each box of reed due to money issues. Thanks so much in advance!
~Exiawolf
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-05-27 16:04
This is the BEST description of a process that is pretty much done by most. There is quite a bit of variation to this process but I like the initial description here of "a slow re-hydration of the reed."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y0Zv3EZ-Ms
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2014-05-27 18:15
I pretty much follow the same procedure as demonstrated by Mr. Nuccio.
I also massage the underside of the vamp, not just the vamp. Squeaky or grunty reeds often benefit from extended massaging of the areas contacted by the side and tip rails of the mouthpiece.
On the first play, I only play in the chalameau register.
When the reed is broken in, I polish and seal it using cheap construction paper.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-05-27 20:59
Greg and others... to what extent could you find and perform with a brand new cane reed of your favorite type, in a pinch? Lets assume you had a box of 10 untouched and had to audition for something really important in 10 min. (Yes I know all of you are Scouts and would never get in that situation. But it happens.)
So...
1) How well might the new reed compare in performance to one of your properly broken in favorites?
2) To what extent would you expect this reed to be "ruined" as a possible future favorite?
3) war stories?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-05-27 21:00)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-05-27 21:04
It could easily fail in the audition, and if you played it for a while, would probably warp afterwards - all due to too much water absorption early on.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-05-27 22:36
Ditto.
This scenario is not possible.
If you are in a "pinch" the ONLY alternative is to have a compatible Legere handy to get you by. Otherwise, go back to the hotel and have a drink.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-05-27 23:37
I'm just trying to get a handle on a couple of issues related to the breakin process. I'm not arguing with the benefits of it or need for it.
David, you'd be concerned (or you're sure) a new reed would fail on you during the audition. I didn't specify how long you needed to play. I did give you 10 minutes to select which reed(s) to play, so we have to assume you've at least tooted on it/them. When you're trying new reeds, do they play correctly for you? Or do they play significantly differently after breakin? If initially OK- how long would you be confident?... a few measures? a song? ...clearly not a set.
Paul, you'd throw in the towel? Really?
So, can either of you evaluate a new type of cane reed without giving it the benefit of a full breakin routine? Is it possible a reed that's TERRIBLE at first toots gets way better later? ...or vice versa?
This very afternoon I am trying out FOF's for the first time- a brand new box of 10 sitting on my desk. All older I have sort of playable is 3 or 4 Vandoren blue's that are a bit like the chimps in a lab that have been poked and prodded too many different ways to be fair for further testing. I guess I should have gone with a box of 10 new blues first, to reestablish my baseline. Can I trust my first FOF impressions or not?
Oh, and I need to play a solo this Sunday (5 days away).
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-05-28 00:25)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-05-28 00:32
fskelley wrote:
> Greg and others... to what extent could you find and perform
> with a brand new cane reed of your favorite type, in a pinch?
> Lets assume you had a box of 10 untouched and had to audition
> for something really important in 10 min.
> 1) How well might the new reed compare in performance to one of
> your properly broken in favorites?
Probably very well for 5 or 10 minutes, then the reed's response would become progressively less reliable (though still playable, but needing much more coddling).
>
> 2) To what extent would you expect this reed to be "ruined" as
> a possible future favorite?
This would be a non-issue. If this last minute performance/audition is so important, it's the only thing that matters as far as the reed goes. Tomorrow isn't the issue. Probably it wouldn't play well. Could it be revived? Maybe - depends on the reed and how long you played it at the performance/audition.
>
> 3) war stories?
>
None.
What's the point? Has this happened to you recently?
Karl
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-05-28 00:45
Karl- I am still trying to work out procedures and what kind of cane reeds to use long term. I was looking for anecdotal and rigorous experience about the validity of evaluation of new reeds without breakin. Especially if like me your fundamental issue is that reeds tend to quit playing high altissimo after a few minutes, especially B6 ![[B6]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/b6.gif) and C7 ![[C7]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c7.gif) . That's another whole thread or 2 or 3.
So, Karl--- after that "few minutes" of good play on the hypothetical emergency new reed, how would it go bad on you?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-05-28 02:28
fskelley wrote:
> So, Karl--- after that "few minutes" of good play on the
> hypothetical emergency new reed, how would it go bad on you?
>
It would begin to be harder to focus the sound, lose its clarity and become more difficult to articulate cleanly. It would gradually (maybe not so gradually) lose its resilience as it became water-logged.
This would not, in my experience, affect any particular register more than another, except maybe that altissimo Bb6, B6 and C7 might be harder top produce. Chalumeau might become airy sounding. Clarion might begin to sound thick and some notes might become less stable - more squeak-prone.
Unless the reed was very soft to begin with, in which case it might, as it became water-logged, simply close up and become impossible to play at all with anything close to normal embouchure pressure being applied around it.
But you were asking about the best pick of a box of previously unplayed reeds, not one at one extreme or the other of the box's range of quality, so it wouldn't start out either too hard or too soft.
Karl
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-05-28 02:51
Thanks, Karl- I get it. We all know when a reed is just not cooperating in a general way, and conversely when one is sparkling- and we ask "Where have you been all my life?".
So far so good with my new FOF's. I worked with 3 today for 10 min or so each, and they were good enough for me to concentrate on FOF exclusively for now. I should be in good shape with at least a couple of them by the weekend. And I'll digest my way through the whole box over the next weeks (months? that would be nice), and have a clearer idea of what's next.
Even though each FOF reed seemed to be getting sluggish by the time I put it down (might mean I went too long), all 3 seemed to hold the high end nicely. There's a reason each of us has to try these things on our own.
I like your concept of "coddling" a reed. That is, I agree I don't like doing it. Sure, if we're up to the task, maybe we can get through a play session and our audience be unaware how hard we had to work. And our teachers and directors might be proud of us for it. But music should be more fun than that. Life is too short to eat bad apples.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-05-29 09:07)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-05-28 05:11
No one would drive a brand new car (particularly a REALLY expensive one) at full RPM down the highway for hours at a time, so you shouldn't expect a reed to be much different.
The key is RE-HYDRATION. Until a reed gets close to this 'ideal,' it will NOT exhibit it's actual potential. So yes, reeds can go from sounding pretty good the first few days to sounding pretty lousy a few days later and the other way around. Taking four or five days to ensure that you have reeds that last up to a few months is not sucking the fun out of music - it's guaranteeing the fun of music !!!
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-05-28 05:35
We're not in disagreement. I just think that when you encounter a bad reed (one that's inherently that way, not one you've abused that might recover) you shouldn't waste much energy trying to play on it. Don't even give it your practise time.
But should we give every reed the benefit of the doubt through those first few days before deciding on the keepers? So the stinkers get to stick around a while? And we might be tempted to keep trying with them, given the time we've already invested?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-05-28 05:57
fskelley wrote:
> We're not in disagreement.
I'm not sure who this refers to. But IMO if a reed is completely unplayable on the first try, it's next stop should be the trash can or (more recently) the recycling bin. I've kept more than my share of bad reeds, and none of them works out. By the time I've carved enough wood out of them to get them to vibrate, there's nothing left of the original profile. I often wonder whether I could re-manufacture the complete clunkers by treating them as blanks and starting over, but I don't have the reed making skill to know where to start.
Life's too short. Just go on to the next reed.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2014-05-28 06:17
Check out my web page on the reeds articles, I have some very good ideas that work.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-05-28 06:23
It's a tough call. Today as I said, I started my first FOF's with 3 new ones right out of the box... numbered in my system as 3A 3B and 3C. FOF's are supposed to be more consistent than Vandoren blues. So I was happy to find 3A and 3B practically identical, and pretty nice. Of course 3C was odd man out, dull and clunky. I worked all 3 of them in ATG a bit, 3A and 3B got better- 3C not so much. I'll give 3C another try or maybe 2 before I toss it and grab "3D" (I like working with 3 newish reeds at a time).
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-05-28 06:51
Only speaking from my experience. Though I have never had the worst of a box become the best reed, some initial klunkers become a solid number 5 or 6. All but the last two usually get played for practice, so why throw out perfectly usable reeds? That only increases your overall expenses unnecessarily.
This is also why I still pursue the plastic reed thing. If I crack this nut, the expenditure (and investment in non productive time) becomes exponentially decreased.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-05-28 06:56
Wow, Ed- 15 boxes of reeds in 9 months is routine for a clarinet student? OK they're playing 3-4 hr per day, I'm averaging 45 min per day- proportionately that would be a box every 2 months, and I guess that makes sense. Lots of other great stuff in there. Also funny how you end your comments about being in the right place to play the right stuff for the right people at the right time to win the right job... with "a great reed helps" (I paraphrase).
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2014-05-28 19:26
Stan, in the event of a reed emergency, here's what I do:
1. Five minutes of soaking in warm water
2. When removing the reed from the water, just shake the water off--don't dry it beyond that
3. Massage the reed vamp vigourously with the fingers on a glass until the moisture coming off of it has become starchy, looking a bit like skim milk
4. Massage the underside of the reed for about the same time as it took to draw starch out of the vamp
5. Wipe the reed with a Kleenex and play. Also wipe the starchy mess off of your glass...
If at all possible, I prepare a pair of reeds, not just one, and rotate them to get through the job. They will play well for about 20-30 minutes before needing a change.
Rico Orange Box, Rico Royal, Mitchell Lurie, and Vandoren V12 can be pressed into service this way and may turn out to be good reeds. Zonda, Gonzalez FOF, Olivieri, Alexander Superial, and Vandoren Traditional will probably end up ruined!
War stories? Here in Michigan, for the last few years, we've had awful springtimes where the weather suddenly goes from 50 degrees (F) and rainy to 80 and humid with no intervening weeks of sunny 65 degree weather. Two weeks ago I went to rehearsal with 12 carefully broken-in reeds and they all were unplayable. The rest of the clarinet section was in the same dire situation as me. A plethora of obscenities were uttered...
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-05-28 19:47
Greg- many interesting aspects of your story, thanks!
I wonder what primarily separates your 2 groups of reeds (that might or might not survive emergency usage). They all start from the same species of plant, harvested, aged, machined, and packaged in similar ways. Yet they end up with real differences. Though perhaps the same could be said of those "Riyin" reeds I tried, blech.
I also wonder how many music careers have been destroyed by reed failure, or just mediocrity, at the wrong moment. No matter how well prepared you are, it can happen. Of course, the same could be said for a tummy upset at the wrong time. Nothing is 100%.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-05-28 21:03)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-05-29 09:20
As I continue working with new FOF's, I've brought back the GD's I rejected a couple of weeks ago- and they are better than I remembered. So I think perhaps I've misjudged a good many cane reeds by how they played in a rigorous 5-15 minute session when brand new.
I will keep at it with both types of Gonzalez reeds, and as they casually* break in I hope they play better and better. And I'll probably treat at least a couple of them to a meticulous gradual by-the-book breakin to see if that makes them stand out among their more abused brethren. (When I did that with blues I found no difference.) Clearly some of you think it should make a difference, though perhaps more with some kinds of reeds than others... FOF being one of the sensitive ones? GD (like V12) not?
Also, compared to previous new reeds, I'm being more careful about too much ATG adjusting for strength (not balance) too early in the process.
More findings later.
*I tend to play a new or newish reed until it degrades (Karl's description of what happens is spot on), then I pick up another. I find they last longer each new day, though perhaps never as long as I'd like. Maybe I am being a bit more careful about that nowadays than in the past- that is, I swap reeds on less provocation. And I do look at the clock a little on a brand new reed. But I'm not keeping records on how many days, how long etc.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-05-29 21:26)
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-05-30 07:34
I personally soak each reed for a minute, wipe it off, rub back and forth on the vamp about 12 times, stick it on my clarinet, play the open g, middle c, low c, low f, and high c and write down the intonation tendencies of each keeping n mind that the horn and/or environment may change, then I play a Bb scale exercise to test tone in the mid register, a low (E-C) middle (C-Bb) and high register (B-C) articulation exercise to test responsiveness. After that I usually play a little selection of whatever I'm playing currently in both jazz and classical styles, most recently Gavotte by J.B Lully and St. Louis Blues with an improv solo. After that I take the reed off, wipe the spit, stick it in its case, stick the case in a ziploc with orange peels to control humidity and then move on to the next reed until I'm finished.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-11-20 02:08
I am making great progress on all aspects of my clarinet playing- all in the direction of more consistent enjoyable reliable play, where I can think about the music not the mechanics.
My breakin process these days is "one song per reed per day until it settles in or gets rejected". I know that's not as rigorous as some of you do, but I try to make every step of everything I do "earn its keep". Minimum time spent fussing with reeds or playing on bad ones / maximum time spent playing on nice reeds.
As of last week I had 3 or 4 nice reeds and a handful of almost but not quite winners- all V blue 2.5's- and a cabinet full of rejects of varying pedigrees.
I bought three V12 2.5's from a local store and added them to my working set. Day one was NICE on all 3, with only 1 needing any ATG work. They degraded badly on day 2, so much so that I thought V12's were going to be a complete bust for me. So I ran out and got yet another box of 10 Vblue 2.5's (which apparently are a very tough act to beat). Then 3 more days of playing 13 reeds one song each, plus always a 14th good older reed for comparison. Now the V12's have 5 days of play, the newest Vblues 3 days.
In my process, new Vandoren blues breakin fairly smoothly and consistently. That is, they settle eventually pretty close to how they play initially. They can go downhill a bit the 2nd or 3rd day before they bounce back, but not dramatically. At this point I conclude that I CAN judge the quality of a new Vblue, though I will probably need to prove that in another 2 or 3 boxes at least, before I'm willing to toss a Vblue on the 1st play.
HOWEVER... the V12's caught me by surprise. They played TERRIBLY on days 2 and 3, absolute mush- but recovered nicely on days 4-5. And right now they are neck and neck with the blues. I feel and hear some differences, but I think there's more variation reed to reed than type to type. So the jury is still out on V12's for me.
Something is very different in character between V12's and blues that affects breakin. Perhaps one is presoaked and the other isn't? Or were my 3 V12's a fluke? If V12's prove better for me in the long run I guess I'll go that way, especially if less $ per good reed.
Have others encountered this extreme breakin behavior for V12's? If it's common, I wonder how many V12's have been thrown out because the players didn't know they might recover in another day or 2 of play. This could be a reason to recommend blue over V12 for students and such, if blues play more consistently during breakin.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-11-20 02:15)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-20 02:59
Great observation about the V12s. I would be curious if anyone KNOWS if Vandoren does anything differently with them.
I bought my first box of V12s about a week ago since my initial trial in the early 90s (I hated them back then). The clearly have more material per reed than even my precious Rue Lepic. So my best guess (and I really mean guess) right now, is that the greater amount of cane exacerbates all the weirdness that is cane. At the four day mark I just had reeds number 9 and 10 of the box become 2 and 1 respectively (the biggest and latest change I've seen during a break-in period......ever).
There does seem to be a bit more "color" in the sound as well which might correlate to the greater amount of material as well.
So far I am not completely sold on switching to V12s, but the 'newer' cut (they finish them more than they did in the early 90s) is certainly much more amenable.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-11-20 04:01
Mr. Stan Kelley, I have a humble question of you, utterly absent of judgment.
In your play and rating of reeds, is the ability to reliably hit notes in the double high range personally important to you and factor heavily into how you rate reeds? If so, that's cool; we've all got different playing requirements.
I just ask because I tend to accept that I'm going to find things I like and don't like about most of the reeds I have put into circulation for play. Also, hitting such notes is often not hard for me, even if I have to grab a bit more mouthpiece to do so, and I can universally do it, given a decent reed, on most of my mouthpieces. I seem to favor the Vandoren CL6 right now, and generally play on medium facing mouthpieces (an M15 I like, and M13 I don't.)
I am though expressly claiming that encorporating such notes into some 16th note passage is beyond my skill set, but hitting them, that I can do.
I'm sorry if I'm coming to the dance late here, but have you also investigated embouchure and mouthpiece changes? What fingerings for these notes work best for you or not at all?
I'd love to know if I stuck my mouthpiece on your clarinet and stubborn reed if I too would have problems with such high notes. I'd like to know if you'd have better results with my clarinet and or mouthpiece. I'd like to know how I'd fair on your mouthpiece. I'd like to know what higher strength reeds might do. I'd like to know if you modify your embouchure, something I shy away from doing except on such really high notes, to make them.
My hitting these notes isn't about bragging, but rather using myself as a control for your play on the same equipment.
And I'd like to know all this stuff to see what changes to the person and/or the equipment are in order, if any, if these "perk the dogs ears" notes rank high in importance for you to make.
No judgements.
Dave
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-11-20 04:18
Ah, Dave- some who are reading this may be thinking, oh boy- now poor Dave is going to get inundated with too much info from Stan. And they may be right. Maybe you missed my whole thread on extreme altissimo- http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=400320&t=400269. Read it if you wish- it will take a while, and even longer if you really want to digest it, LOL. Lots of dead ends and such that I finally decided to leave there just in case they might be help to somebody, or not. But I solved that issue. Feel free to continue that thread with me and the others who patiently slogged through it with me... (thanks all of you !!!). Or email me privately as a couple others have done- up to you.
But let me answer your questions here, in the context of THIS thread which deals with reed breakin.
Yes, I insist on my precious double high B and C. Any reed that wouldn't play them after breakin and adjustment I would call a loser. But I don't encounter any reeds these days that fail solely for that reason, conversely- any reed that plays well overall, will also play high B and C. That's what I mean by "I solved that issue".
Your other questions about mouthpieces, embouchure, and such- I think belong in the other thread. The short answer is that I experimented a bunch and found embouchure and technique was at least 90% of the game... as I suspected at the beginning but was hoping the right equipment change would fix but it didn't. Or perhaps the deal is that the right technique avoids having to have the perfect equipment. Very recently I did rediscover how important it is not to have any leaks or such, that's ANOTHER thread, LOL.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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