 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Musikat
Date: 2014-05-07 06:22
Tonight at rehearsal I was given two boxes of vintage purple box Vandoren reeds. They say 3 1/2-4 "medium hard" on the box, and the box was sealed.
My sense is these are a find! But I am not sure how they will correlate to what I currently play. I use V12 4's currently.
Does anyone know anything about these and how they might play (both for their age and in relation to the v12 4 strength)? I opened one box just to look at them and they look in perfect condition -- no warping.
Thanks!
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Author: kenb
Date: 2014-05-07 06:56
Play 'em!
In the purple box era you could go to 56 Rue Lepic and test reeds before purchase.
I've often wondered what happened to the rejects.
If there's a taste of garlic, or a whiff of Gauloises...
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-05-07 17:59
Rx: Soak each one in 3% H2O2 for a few minutes before putting them in your mouth.
Dr. B>
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2014-05-07 18:30
Before everyone starts getting all weepy-eyed and reverential about the "great old purple box Vandorens", recall that, 20+ years ago when these were new, those of you who were playing clarinet at the time bitched endlessly about how inconsistent they were, how you'd only get one good one out of ten, etc. etc.
Yes, they will probably play very well now, because they are nicely aged. I've found many brands and models of reeds that didn't work for me when they were new but now, decades later, work really well. Time heals all wounds and improves (most) reeds.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-05-07 18:40
You guys are making me think I should do H2O2 to every new reed I get. One does not want to be a nut about such things, but really- "You don't know where that's been." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T8ipIc2PGc
And even H2O2 is not magic, but it's a durn sight better than nothing.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-05-07 18:55)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-05-07 18:45
Your mouth is a veritable petri dish of germs. Probably only second to the toilet seat. If you've ever had a paper cut at the nail line and put the throbing digit in your mouth chances are you got eponychia from all the germs in your mouth.
Reeds are the least of your problems :-)
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-05-07 20:30
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Your mouth is a veritable petri dish of germs. Probably only
> second to the toilet seat.
>
>
>
Actually toilet seats are pretty clean, according to Myth Busters..
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Author: Musikat
Date: 2014-05-07 20:50
I would say these are a lot older than 20 years. I have been playing for over 30 and they look like a box my dad used to have (He's 87)! They are in the cardboard box,with the folded paper inside that says each reed will be stamped with the official logo to prevent counterfeit. I tried one box today and so far nothing wonderful. But I will give them a few days to see if they change for the better.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2014-05-07 21:39
If the reeds are in plastic boxes, rather than cardboard, they were at least from the early '70s, or before.
...GBK
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2014-05-07 21:58
Before I stopped playing in 1974, I'd purchased quite a few of these purple-box Vandoren reeds, strength 5. I started playing again on those remaining reeds in 2007. A year or two later, I also tried a few modern Vandoren reeds for comparison. It seemed to me that the modern reeds were stiffer.
Based on my comparisons, I think purple-box strength 5 corresponds to between strength 3 and 4 in the modern reeds. Modern 5's were noticeably stiffer, I couldn't really use them, and modern 4's also seemed a bit too stiff for me.
Note that my sample size was small, only a few reeds each of different sizes of modern Vandorens. I have no idea if the decades of aging changed the strength of the purple-box reeds.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2014-05-07 22:19
A few years back I bought a large supply of old store stock of the purple plastic box Vandorens. They played really well. These were #5 and I agree with Philip about the strength. If I compared them to the newer reeds, the current #5 were MUCH stiffer and I could not use them.
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Author: Musikat
Date: 2014-05-07 22:34
She had 5's, too. I am thinking of giving back the unopened 3 1/2-4 and trying the 5's.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-05-07 22:36
I have unopened boxes of VD reeds from late 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s etc.
Just open the box and play - been doing this for 60 years and haven't caught anything yet.
From empirical tests I think that 10 - 30 years in box is no real problem but older than that they seem to take a longer time to stabilise.
Strength variability in each box seems greater with the older reeds too.
However currently have made 4 out of 5 reeds from a box bought in 1968 quite usable.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-05-08 02:47
Paul said: "Your mouth is a veritable petri dish of germs. Probably only second to the toilet seat."
It's true that we have quite a variety of oral flora, but I'm not worried about those - most are not pathogens, and if they are, we've developed antibodies against them. It's the ones we haven't been exposed to that can cause infection.
And by the way, hydrogen peroxide is probably a better germicide than 70% alcohol (which is pretty good itself).
bruno>
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2014-05-08 17:33
David Spiegelthal wrote,
>Yes, they will probably play very well now, because they are nicely aged. I've found many brands and models of reeds that didn't work for me when they were new but now, decades later, work really well. Time heals all wounds and improves (most) reeds.
>
I've had the same experience with old reeds, including a few of the older generation of "purple box" Vandorens (yes, I'm one of the people who bitched about them) -- a nice excuse for hoarding a ridiculous number of bad reeds for various instruments.
Oh, and there's the excuse about the reed that doesn't work on *these* mouthpieces but, hey, who knows, it might be the perfect reed for some unknown mouthpiece of the future. Waste not, want not, right?
When the second drawer fills up, I'll cull some of these reeds. Really I will. This time I mean it. (Yeah, r-i-i-i-i-ght.)
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: MSK
Date: 2014-05-09 01:37
Either the plastic purple boxes were still being manufactured into the late 70s-early 80s or there was a lot of new old stock left in inventory. I began playing in 1976 and probably didn't switch from Rico to Vandoren until about 1978. I bought Vandoren reeds in purple boxes for years after that - probably into the mid 1980s.
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Author: EricBlack
Date: 2021-02-05 21:08
Sorry to bring back an old thread!
But I just finished a video where I open up an old case of these Plastic Box Vandorens. I was mainly interested in corroborating the strength comparison and I can confirm that these aged strength 5 reeds from the 70's feel significantly softer than strength 5 Traditionals today. (Closer to 3.0-3.5)
Here is the full video for anyone interested:
https://youtu.be/offbVRqECWs
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-02-05 21:29
EricBlack wrote:
> Sorry to bring back an old thread!
> I was mainly interested in
> corroborating the strength comparison and I can confirm that
> these aged strength 5 reeds from the 70's feel significantly
> softer than strength 5 Traditionals today. (Closer to 3.0-3.5)
>
Absolutely. Either the reeds have changed or mouthpieces have. Back then you could play at least a few reeds (#5 VD) straight out of the box, and they played well with a little balancing. Today's #5 VDs (of any model) are like popsicle sticks and need to be completely re-profiled (lots of cane scraped out of places we were taught never to touch) to make them remotely useable.
I had the same experience when I ran across some old Vandoren #5s (from the same era - mid-70s, pre-V.12). I don't know why. There are reeds on today's market that, on a close-tipped medium to long facing can be played at their highest strength with little of no adjustment. I haven't found that to be true of any Vandoren I've tried in the past 15-20 years.
Karl
Post Edited (2021-02-05 22:14)
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-02-05 23:03
In comparing the '70s Vandorens to today's, I find little difference (same mouthpiece). If anything, maybe I like the current reeds a little better. Or maybe I just think that way because they cost so much more that I just don't want to buy so many and be so fussy about quality?
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tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2021-02-05 23:03)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-02-05 23:19
Tom H wrote:
> In comparing the '70s Vandorens to today's, I find little
> difference (same mouthpiece). If anything, maybe I like the
> current reeds a little better.
Are you talking about #5 Traditionals?
Karl
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Author: Ed
Date: 2021-02-06 02:16
Yes, the old ones are softer. Perhaps the age has something to do with it, but plenty of players used 5's in that era. As I shared a few years ago in this thread, I once came across a huge number of old store stock of these purple boxes. They played great for me. Eventually as I was running low I started to buy some newer traditional cut 5. They were like boards and I could not use almost any without very extensive work.
Those older reeds are very good. I regret that I no longer have any of them.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-02-06 02:31
I've always used 2.5s.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-02-06 03:31
Tom H wrote:
> I've always used 2.5s.
>
Well, I think that may be a different discussion. The 5s specifically were playable back then and many serious players used them. Out of the box. To the extent that I didn't know anyone in the Philadelphia area who used even Medium Hard (3.5 - 4) Vandorens. Maybe the #2.5-3 ("Medium") strength reeds were close to what the #2.5s are now, but if so there was a good deal less of a jump among Medium (2.5-3), Medium Hard (3.5-4) and Hard (5).
That your 2.5s have not changed much if at all begs the question even more, why are the 5s and the other strengths in between so different today? Maybe something changed when the strengths changed to individual half-strengths (except 4.5, which still doesn't exist in the Traditional line) and some difference had to be established among separate 3, 3.5 and 4. But I find even the current 4s to be stiffer than I remember the 5s being in the early '70s.
I do have a couple of friends who still use #5 Trads. But they do *a lot* of work on them. Out of curiosity, I'd be interested to know who uses #5 VD Traditionals *out of the box* today (slight balancing allowed) and what mouthpiece style they use. Must be some players, or VD wouldn't market them.
Karl
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Author: aalexko
Date: 2021-02-06 04:09
I started seeing blue box Vandorens in the mid 1980s, maybe in 86 or 87.
I have some Vandorens without a strength number on the back of the reed without the box. I think they are purple box reeds.
Does anyone know when Vandoren started to put a strength number on the
back of the reed below the Vandoren logo?
I think it was when they changed to the blue box.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-02-06 05:07
As far as I can remember, V.12s, which I think came out sometime in the '80s, always had strengths printed on the back. It was only the Traditional cut reeds that didn't. So, if I'm right, your no-number reeds would be Traditionals. I suppose VD didn't mark the reeds themselves (the boxes were identified by strength) because they were all cut on the same machines and graded later, probably as they were being boxed up. So maybe there wasn't originally a place in the line where they could be marked after they were sorted.
I also remember, I think, that V.12s have always come in the gray cardboard boxes they're shipped in now - only the foil wrapping has been added more recently. I think they started packaging the Traditional reeds in the same type of box (but blue) at the same time.
The Vandorens I remember from my student days (late '60s to early '70s) were packed in flat hard cardboard boxes in layers of 5 separated by some kind of corrugated paper layers. I think they contained 25 reeds (they were much cheaper then). Even the plastic two-sided boxes of 10 came later. In any case, a great deal started to change when first the V.12s and later the 56 Rue lepics came out.
Karl
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Author: aalexko
Date: 2021-02-06 05:52
I found the 110 Years of Vandoren: A Timeline of Events, Products, and Company History online.
It says when there was new packaging and when V12 Bb clarinet reeds
were introduced.
Thank you
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-02-06 06:07
There was a period when strengths were listed as 2-2.5, 2.5-3, etc. Anyone recall exactly when that was? Late '80s?
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: EricBlack
Date: 2021-02-06 07:52
Quote:
Absolutely. Either the reeds have changed or mouthpieces have. Back then you could play at least a few reeds (#5 VD) straight out of the box, and they played well with a little balancing. Today's #5 VDs (of any model) are like popsicle sticks and need to be completely re-profiled (lots of cane scraped out of places we were taught never to touch) to make them remotely useable.
I had the same experience when I ran across some old Vandoren #5s (from the same era - mid-70s, pre-V.12). I don't know why. There are reeds on today's market that, on a close-tipped medium to long facing can be played at their highest strength with little of no adjustment. I haven't found that to be true of any Vandoren I've tried in the past 15-20 years.
Karl
Ya, I've never even considered using modern 5s for the same reasons. For me it isn't worth the extra reed work required. Just curious, what highest strength reed brands are you referring to?
Quote:
I do have a couple of friends who still use #5 Trads. But they do *a lot* of work on them. Out of curiosity, I'd be interested to know who uses #5 VD Traditionals *out of the box* today (slight balancing allowed) and what mouthpiece style they use. Must be some players, or VD wouldn't market them.
I know in Stephen Williamson's Vandoren video he says he still plays on Traditional 5s, but he also vaguely mentions doing things to make them work the way he wants them too. I also did a gig with one of his former students that also played Traditional 5s on a BD5. Not sure how much work he did on them to make them play, but he sounded great as well!
Quote:
There was a period when strengths were listed as 2-2.5, 2.5-3, etc. Anyone recall exactly when that was? Late '80s?
I believe the Plastic boxes that I did the above video on from the 70's and early 80's were marked this way, but perhaps others were as well!
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2021-02-06 11:04
I began playing the clarinet year 1970. The vandoren boxes were made of cardboard. It was two reeds wide and the reeds were there in a pile of ten reeds two reeds next to each other. The plastic box, same size, shape and colour, pale purple came later, perhaps late 70's. I remember cursing that box, it was more difficult to open: when you tried to open it, the lid didn't want to open, next when it suddenly opened, all the reeds flew out of the box to the floor.
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
Post Edited (2021-02-06 11:10)
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2021-02-06 11:34
The strengths were 2 1/2 - 3 etc. Later they changed it so that 2 1/2 - 3 became 3 etc. And eventually they started to sell the reeds is half numbers. I visited the vandoren shop late 1990's or early 2000's. They didn't let you to try the reeds anymore, but you could buy the reeds in 1/10th strengths. There was a machine on the encounter: you put the reed on it and two pins came up bending the tip of the reed upwards. Then a display showed a number: f.ex. 2.9. When you bought the reeds you asked for your favourite strength: 10 reeds of 3.7's please! (Of course in french, the lady behind the encounter didn't speak a word english, although she seemed very pleased, when you tried to speak berlitz-french, when you actually couldn't speak french) Then she would take a cardboard box from a shelf 3.7 written on, take the reeds one by one and measure them with the device and pack them in a box for you.
Later i chatted with a pr-officer in the shop, and even he didn't believe in selling the reeds in 1/10th of strengths. "After wetting them the strengths of them will anyway change so much in one direction or another..."
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2021-02-06 19:02
Regardless of strength are people who used the old VS 5s still using the same mouthpiece (tip opening, lay length etc) now as they were using back then on today’s 5s? Also, is VD still using exactly the same cut or cutting machine for the 5s now as they did then?
With Rico/D’Addario Reserve Classic I found the cut changed for the worse when they upgraded the cutting machines. My guess is they couldn’t reproduce exactly the same cut with the new machinery/method.
I have a store of old VDs from the cardboard and plastic box eras, around 1978 onwards. I considered them bad in those days, but kept the ones I didn’t play on at the time. It was only much later I found I’d been using a bad mouthpiece for years and also learnt to adjust reeds. The reeds are unmarked for strength but would be on the softer side 2/2.5 to 3. Now I’m gong through those old reeds I find many really good quality, resilient, responsive etc. However, they are a bit soft for me now, depending on mouthpiece. It’s been a joke in the wind section of the orchestra I play in that I use reeds that are older than many of the players.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-02-06 19:36
JTJC wrote:
> Regardless of strength are people who used the old VS 5s still
> using the same mouthpiece (tip opening, lay length etc) now as
> they were using back then on today’s 5s?
In my case, yes.
> Also, is VD still
> using exactly the same cut or cutting machine for the 5s now as
> they did then?
>
Well, that's mostly the point. I would guess not, but only someone who works at the factory or has some other source of authority could say. I would say the profile of the reeds has changed significantly. The only other alternative would be that cane has changed in quality, always a possibility, but then the change would be less consistent.
> With Rico/D’Addario Reserve Classic I found the cut changed
> for the worse when they upgraded the cutting machines. My guess
> is they couldn’t reproduce exactly the same cut with the new
> machinery/method.
>
Or, the new people who came in with D'Addario changed the RICO designs. It's hard for me to believe that a more modern (digital?) cutting system can't reproduce anything the old ones (with analog adjustments?) produced.
Karl
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2021-02-06 21:32
I used those purple box 5's exclusively in the '70's. None were ever anywhere near as stiff as unmodified VD 5's now. The ratings changed, not the aging reeds.
I remember that Steve Williamson video, it's interesting in several regards. Not only does he use VD 5's, his mouthpiece, if I recall, is a relatively open one. Yet he plays with beautiful, nuanced, seeming effortless control.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-02-06 22:46
Someone asked about what became of the reeds nobody liked at 56 Rue Lepic.
My guess is that like the wood shavings of creating instruments at that time, rather than today's incorporation them with epoxy into the Greenline instruments, that they went to the building's then (largely Grenadilla based I imagine) wood based heating system. : - )
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-02-07 00:16
SecondTry wrote:
> Someone asked about what became of the reeds nobody liked at 56
> Rue Lepic.
>
Some might have said they shipped them to the U.S..
Karl
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2021-02-07 03:37
KDK said “Or, the new people who came in with D'Addario changed the RICO designs. It's hard for me to believe that a more modern (digital?) cutting system can't reproduce anything the old ones (with analog adjustments?) produced.”
I’m sure modern digital machines could reproduce anything analog machines could. However, it seems more likely D’Addario took over the existing Rico reed producing people and plant and introduced new machines. There would be a dialogue between the existing staff and the engineers with the new machinery (or old staff retrained) in trying to arrive at recreating the current reed design, or scrapping the old. Reproducing the basics design would probably achieved relatively quickly but I’m sure it would have taken more time to get it exactly ‘right’. I think the cut was a little different. Why, is another question, whether by choices/economics, failure or deciding the new reeds were better/good enough. After all, they still had to churn out so many 1,000 reeds a day to meet worldwide demand. How long could they wait to get it right when it was probably close enough to what they were after.
Owning CNCed mouthpieces by D’Addario, Backun and Behn/Prescott I’d say it might not be that easy to get these machines to do exactly as you want. There are clearly imperfections with the former two, whereas the latter seems perfect (finish, symmetry etc.). But I suppose what appears perfect to me might not be exactly what the maker intended. The ones I own are not top of the range, though all in the same price range, so perhaps produced to meet a price/performance niche. That leaves a question.
The high accuracy/tolerance articles produced by CNC must create a dilema for manufacturers. Every article could (should?) be perfect. If the machines are that accurate how do you produce articles of differently quality which you can continue to differentiate by price in the marketplace? I suppose that’s one reason Behn put his budget line under the alternative banner/name of Prescott. If you don’t do that I suppose you have to say hand finishing is what differentiates on price, as most makers seem to say. They have to, what other reasons could they give when their CNC machines are capable of perfection.
A while ago, someone on the board seems to have had a new Vandoren mouthpiece that had been CNCed. I’ve not seen one yet but CNC hasn’t been VDs usual method of production, so that was something new. If I remember correctly, the poster though the new mouthpiece different to their old one of the same model (B40, or whatever it was). The poster’s experience seems to suggest reproducing by CNC isn’t that easy, or VD decided to change one of their standard models the same time as switching to CNC. Has anyone else got hold of a CNC VD and compared it to an old version of the same model? If so, were the new and old versions the same?
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2021-02-07 23:02
Does anyone know when the strength grading would have changed? Back when I was in high school and college in the 2003-2010 range, I always played V12 #4 reeds. I took a couple of years off from the clarinet between about 2011 and 2014 and when I came back, I bought some #4 reeds and just couldn't play them. At the time I chalked it up to needing to rebuild my embouchure and, as I practiced more, accepted that I wasn't going to get back to a #4.
A few years back, I found an old, forgotten reed stash at my parents' place while house sitting for them. Two boxes of V12 #4 in the small boxes they used prior to the current wasteful plastic mess. Mostly unplayed. With a mouthpiece that usually takes a #3.5 for me, I pulled out some of the #4's and found that they played...just fine. I actually preferred them quite a bit over the reeds I was playing. I had forgotten my reed case at my place, so I actually just used those for the couple of weeks that I was there and was very happy with them.
When I got back to my place, I kept using them and felt great. I didn't even think about my other reeds and just kind of figured I'd worked my way back up to a #4. Then I pulled down a couple newer boxes of #4 reeds and just could not function with any of them. Way too hard. This, of course, led to a reed tailspin that ended with ditching Vandoren entirely, but that's another story.
I suspect that the reeds I was playing were probably purchased prior to 2006 because I remember playing out of a stash of bulk-purchased reeds through most of college after my dad and I realized that we could save money if we bought my boxes of reeds by the dozen. By the time I was buying reeds again in college, Vandoren had switched to the new packaging, so I must have forgotten about these when I went off to school.
Did the strength grading change during the time I wasn't buying reeds, or did the aging process change the strength of these reeds? If it was just one or two reeds, I wouldn't think much of it, but I was comparing two boxes of new reeds to two boxes of reeds that had accidentally been aged for at least a decade. The older boxes were softer, but also much more consistent reed-to-reed, both in terms of quality and strength.
At a minimum, I don't think this reflects terribly well on Vandoren's current packaging. Though I suppose I do get to breathe in just a little bit of the finest French air as I open each reed. Sure, they don't play better, but can you really put a price on that?
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Author: Doug Leach
Date: 2021-02-08 19:32
>> With Rico/D’Addario Reserve Classic I found the cut changed
>> for the worse when they upgraded the cutting machines. My guess
>> is they couldn’t reproduce exactly the same cut with the new
>> machinery/method.
>>
>Or, the new people who came in with D'Addario changed the RICO designs. It's >hard for me to believe that a more modern (digital?) cutting system can't >reproduce anything the old ones (with analog adjustments?) produced.
I had the same experience. I loved the Rico Reserve Classic reeds, and then when they changed to D'Addario packaging I got at most 2 good reeds per box. I later was told by D'Addario reps at an event that they had changed the design of both the Reserve Classic and the Reserve when they changed the branding. Never bought another box from them. Ultimately found that V21's worked reasonably well for me, before switching on to Peter Leuthner's and then Behn Aria and Brio.
Doug
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