 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: MSK
Date: 2014-04-10 17:51
My son has recently been having a lot of trouble with moisture collecting under a pad on his 1970s era Evette & Schaeffer K-series. It is the right hand side F#4 ![[F#4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/gb4.gif) key, (third from the top). It happens after only a short time practicing. I'm not sure whether the problem is actually new or he is just using that fingering more frequently now. When it is dry, the note sounds right, but the moisture bubble makes the wrong pitch come out even when not "buzzing".
I notice the pad height has very little clearance compared to my R13 Bb & A and Selmer series 9, but don't know if this is normal for the model. Could this be why moisture collects so quickly? Is it something I could fix at home or does it require a tech?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-04-10 14:30
I doubt that the water collecting there has anything to do with pad height. The pad doesn't attract it. The water collects there on its own and then runs under the pad.
I'm not sure if those were hard rubber or wood. Either way, a tech could lay a thin layer of paraffin above the tone hole to help guide water around it. If it's a wood instrument, it's possible treating the entire clarinet, or at least the top section, with bore oil could eliminate a rough track, if there is one, that leads the water toward that hole. There's going to be condensate in the bore. The goal is only to try to make it bead up and distribute around the entire bore instead of finding a path to follow toward a specific place.
The everyday solution from your son's point of view would be to swab early and often. This happens to many of us (not necessarily involving the same tone hole), especially near the start of a playing session when the bore hasn't reached the temperature of the breath we're blowing in. Water then condenses more than it does when the wood and breath temperatures are more nearly equal after several minutes. While he swabs the inside he might slip a piece of absorbent paper that won't shred or disintegrate (no Kleenex) under the pad and close the pad on the paper to blot out water in the opening, which the swab won't reach. Cigarette paper is standard (but better not take it to school these days), hair curler papers work and there are packs of the same kind of thin, absorbent paper marketed (Leblanc?) specifically for blotting water under woodwind pads.
Of course it should go without saying (I know - I'm saying it anyway) that your son needs to swab the clarinet out when he puts it away so there's no water left lying around that could start the process the next time he plays.
Old problem, simple, however annoying, to remedy when it happens, harder to prevent.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-10 18:38
Slight correction, there IS a property of water called "adhesion." The pad actually does 'attract' the water droplet. If it didn't, there wouldn't be this problem in the first place.
Height could help this slightly but won't eliminate it.
It's pretty typical to notice this problem as you are playing and quickly blow out (or suck out) the offending water droplet at longer rest.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-04-10 18:40
Sometimes there is a water drop in the gap between the pad and the tone hole, "connecting" them. Sometimes there is water in the tone hole without gettting to the pad when it is open.
The former stops the note completely, or until the water drop bursts and causes a delay. The latter sometimes causes a bubbling sound to the not.
Making the pad open more can absolutely help but mostly with the former issue. It might or might not help with the latter issue, but it's possible.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-04-10 15:04
The side F# key should open a fair amount (min. 2mm to 3mm max.) to make this note speak clearly, so anything less than 2mm venting is not enough. It's easy enough to adjust the venting but you do have to be sure the key doesn't make contact with any other keys or key barrels when in use.
Water will collect in this tonehole due to its location being right next to the thumb tube and being a low lying tonehole.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-04-10 15:45
Cork pads on those troublesome side keys is a good idea for it doesn't absorb moisture (or perhaps not as much). And knowledgeable repairmen will sometimes make a chamfer around the edge of the pad to enhance the opening when the key is opened.
bruno>
Post Edited (2014-04-11 18:04)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-04-10 16:11
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Slight correction, there IS a property of water called
> "adhesion."
True in itself, but not why the water is collecting at that spot in the first place.
> The pad actually does 'attract' the water droplet.
> If it didn't, there wouldn't be this problem in the first
> place.
The water has to get there first. By the time it begins to block a hole, it's no longer a single droplet. The tone hole under the F# side key is several inches down the bore from the mouthpiece and barrel, where I assume most of the water is condensing. It isn't being attracted to the F# pad from all the way up there. It's running down a track in the bore that's for one of a few reasons less water repellent that leads to the F# hole. Once it gets into the hole, it collects at the bottom and then, yes, certainly adheres to the pad, which is closed most of the time. But opening the pad more, while it might require a little more water to cause gurgling or blocking the air entirely, won't stop the water from running toward the hole. You have to head that off "at the pass" before it becomes a problem.
The pad clearance there may be a separate issue in any case. It has to rise, of course, enough to produce the correct pitch in conjunction with the bottom side key (you never open the F# key by itself) when it's opened. Although it could be opened more DIY, the pad thickness may actually be the problem more than the key travel height, and might best be done by a tech if the OP doesn't know how properly to replace and seat a pad himself.
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-04-10 20:19
My whole upper section on both of my instruments was padded with cork for years. Cork has many advantages over skin pads and some disadvantages (but those are for another thread), but even good skin pads shouldn't be absorbing water. If the covering is porous and lets water through it will also allow air to pass through - the fluid, air or water, doesn't matter. So cork pads don't really cut down on the OP's (or his son's) problem.
Karl
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-04-10 21:33
Is it possible that the room temperature is lower than previously? and/or the humidity is lower??
Bob Draznik
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Author: MSK
Date: 2014-04-11 00:28
You've given me a lot to think about. It certainly wouldn't hurt to oil the bore and replace a few pads with cork. It may or may not fix this problem, but has other merits.
The pad height is more like 1-2mm, but when I play test it the intonation is good so long as there is no water bubble.
As to changes in the room, the thermostat remains the same, but the humidity is probably if anything a little higher now that Spring has finally arrived.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-04-11 03:23
You're best having the side F# pad open as much as is reasonably possible - if you consider it is duplicating your left thumb but with a smaller diameter tonehole to give you an F#, it really ought to open by around 2.5-3mm if that's possible.
If not, a thinner pad will help (cork pads can be made to any thickness) and either bending the key or filing away some metal to get more venting is in order.
I don't know how much opening E&S clarinets have on their side F# key normally, but if there's a thick key cork on it (over 1mm thick), trim it down by half and see if that improves things. If there's a thin key cork but venting is still low, file a bevel on the key where the cork is so it follows the radius of the joint and fit a thin cork on there.
If the side F# touchpiece is on the low side (in relation to the side Eb/Bb key) and you've fitted a thinner pad, then bend the key to raise the touchpiece so it's slightly higher than the side Eb/Bb touchpiece, but make sure the trill keys don't clatter against it when using them. If they do, then they'll need to be bent up and thicker stopper corks fitted on them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-04-11 08:17
Chris P wrote:
> You're best having the side F# pad open as much as is
> reasonably possible - if you consider it is duplicating your
> left thumb but with a smaller diameter tonehole to give you an
> F#,
Is it? You open both of the bottom side keys to play chromatic F#. That key is never used alone.
Karl
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-04-11 08:30
>> The pad height is more like 1-2mm, but when I play test it the intonation is good so long as there is no water bubble. <<
Regardless of intonation, the note might be "airy" because of the low pad.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2014-04-11 14:58
Karl said
> a tech could lay a thin layer of paraffin above the tone hole
> to help guide water around it
This is true, but you hardly need a technician. Just get a rod of some
material that won't scratch (a pencil with an eraser head is fine), put
some cork grease on that, hold the joint up to a light and smear the
grease on the bore above the problem hole. Once you've got it in place,
mop out a couple of times. That will force the drainage river system on
the bore into a new channel. You might get unlucky and direct the
water straight into the next hole down - in which case repeat the
process on that hole. I frequently have water trouble with C#/G#
and the above process cures it - for a while; you may need to do
it again every few months.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-04-11 15:47
Interesting. I've actually place my own paraffin (I asked my repair guy, Mike Hammer, to show me how). But I've always been hesitant to use anything as soft as cork grease - afraid it would wash into the tone hole and get messy. No problems in that regard?
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-04-11 16:16
Karl, I realise the side F# key is opened along with the side Eb/Bb key due to the nature of its touchpiece position, but it still needs to open fully to make this note speak cleanly. You can't rely on the venting of the Eb/Bb key to do that as that tonehole is too far away to do much, so the F# key has to open by a decent amount to get the best quality F# using the side key fingering.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-04-11 20:24
If it's a skin pad putting a thin layer of nail polish on the pad (let it dry of course before putting it back on) can help protect against moisture and prevent the skin from tearing.
Ted Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
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