 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-09 06:53
I am really torn on the approach to this review because as I stated, I was about to go crazy over the last week with reeds pretty much collapsing upon me.
I had a 3.75 (actually labelled a 3 3/4) Legere overnighted to me from WWBW to help keep me out of a "funny farm."
The positive aspects for me is that at low to moderate volume levels the reed responded quickly enough and the timbre was pretty focused though a little on the hollow side of sound. Notes from the bottom of the horn up to the "A" four ledger lines above the staff sound pretty natural.
The focus of the sound really starts to unwind with a good forte and get quite pronounced at the top end of the volume, particularly in the chalumeau where you pick up a pronounced buzz with virtually no depth of sound at all.
There is also a limitation to its ability to execute short articulations where there is a loss of "ping" or "bounce." Though this is not as bad as what I recall from the standard Legere from years passed.
Finally, the top end of the range from high "A" up, is thin to non-existent. How could plastic possibly compete with cane at the very tip of the reed where it is necessary to be both elastic and maintain a fair degree of rigidity (accomplished in cane by means of the longitudinally running tube-like fibers).
In short I would say that it is a good reed to have available as an emergency substitute when (if) your reed rotation goes haywire. As long as you are playing repertoire that does not call for too many extremes, the Legere Signature can sound good enough to get you by. Although this reed seems a bit better than the standard Legere I remember from some years ago, it is NOT a substitute for a good reed by any measure.
I have a general question. This reed has a distinct "herringbone" pattern throughout the material as you look through it. Is this typical of all new Legeres, or is this just an aspect of the Signature series?
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-04-09 07:33
I play the "regular" cut Legere (although I will probably move back to cane) ... and they have the "herringbone" machining pattern, as well.
The ones I owned years ago had a different pattern to the machining.
I think I've reached the limitations of the regular Legere on current MP (VD M30-lyre) ... I ditto your comments on playing quality ... mostly my experience too, although I'm using the cheapest of the Legere offerings.
The synthetics are good to grab in a panic and make some music.
Been saving my pennies for another MP/reed paradigm shift.
Hey, I'm old and just having fun! Serious days are past ... no worries.
Tom
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-09 04:59
It sometimes becomes more cooperative after a 30 second bath in boiling water. (Submerse it with tongs.) It's good for what synthetics have to offer and possible best in class: a practice reed and a reed for when your active reeds have ganged up on you, but good cane it ain't. Synthetics have come a long way, and still have a long way to go.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-04-09 09:04
I've also been experimenting with Legeres lately, as well as a couple of cane models I've never used much before. I have to agree with most of your assessment, with two caveats:
I'm finding that they play very differently on the mouthpiece I'm currently using than they do on several I've used in the past, so I think, like cane reeds, the mouthpiece (I suspect more the inside dimensions than the actual facing) and the Legere need to be a good match. The difference, of course, is that you're much more limited in what you can do to adjust a Legere to the mouthpiece's requirements.
I recently splurged and bought 4 of the same strength Signatures and found them to be different enough from each other that I would play on two of the four, and especially one of them, more willingly than the others. They aren't as consistent as I would think reeds made of manufactured materials could be.
Yes, the herringbone pattern seems to be consistent over the line. I've put aside worrying about how they look compared to cane reeds. The tips of the Legeres (and the Forestones) *look* too flexible to hold a sound or pitch well, but I'm comparing that to the look of cane reed tips. The behavior of the material is something I don't know enough about to know if the differing levels of visible flexing mean anything.
Karl
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Author: babrinka77
Date: 2014-04-09 11:02
Hello;
I haven't heard any unwind focus of the sound when Wenzel Fuchs plays a good forte with his Legere reed.
I haven't noticed any loss of "ping" or "bounce" when Mr. Hawkins plays short articulations with a Legere reed.
I wouldn't say that the sound of Andreas Ottensamer is non-existent at the top end of the range from high "A" when he plays his Legere reed.
I don't think the sound of Mate Bekavac is on the hollow side when playing his Legere reed.
Of course that those superb players i mentioned here would sound great with any reed (cane or plastic), so it's fair to say that with a good mp-reed combination and good skills as a player, Legere can sound just fantastic, otherwise pro players like them wouldn't switch off to plastic reeds just because they don't want to deal with cane problems...
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-09 15:33
Hey "babrinka77,"
The celebrity endorsement does NOT necessarily mean that they play them all the time, and certainly does not indicate that the specific recording or live performance you heard was done utilizing these reeds.
That is not to completely refute the possibility of sounding decent on these reeds. As I tried to indicate, there is room for them to render an acceptable product. I only wish to convey the notion that although I want to be open minded about their performance, the DIRECT COMPARISON between cane and synthetic offers a good amount of contrast.
But where I disagree with your assessment is SPECIFICALLY with the "cane problems." Clearly the advantage to synthetic material IS not needing a break-in period; not having to soak before applying to a mouthpiece; not drying out during rests or while on a doubling instrument; playing the same as it did THE LAST TIME you picked it up; oh and the smoothness of the feel against the lower lip (this could even becoming addictive!!!).
I would think in Europe where there is a longer winter where the dew point is lower (little to no humidity) and the mouthpiece facings tend to be closer making the reeds constancy more critical, there would be a greater draw to the positives of synthetics.
But I'd like to conclude with this link:
http://www.vandorentv.com/Karl-Leister-et-Vandoren_v208.html
Hang on until 4:18, where Karl Leister puts us in our places about reeds !!!
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-04-09 15:39
Really great players can accomplish miracles on any set up. For me, being under-trained, under-practiced and over the hill, I need all the help I can get.
I will try the signatures, and see if this addresses some of my concerns ... The local music store stocks mostly kids stuff, so I have to mail order most things of interest ... But now, each synthetic reed costs a box of real reeds!
I have found the Legere regular cut to be surprisingly inconsistent as well, but not as bad as a box of Vandorens. I think Legere cuts all the reeds the same and adjust the strength by adjusting the chemistry of the reed material. I can see this might be difficult to manage ...
In addition, many good players using Legere might be adjusting or taking some material off the reed. I play them as I get them ...
I do soak my synthetics in warm water for a few minutes to help them get past the "warm up" period, although I think most of the warm up is due to internal friction from vibration.
Tom
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-09 15:56
I don't know if I would endorse the "hot water" treatment (personally I am NOT willing to experiment with it) since I am not convinced that 'melting' or 'reconstituting' would change the characteristics that I am experiencing.
Also, keep in mind the strength you shoot for on the Legere is ideally about 1/4 strength SOFTER than what you'd use in a Vandoren.
And going back to the notion of great players on Legeres. I was reminded recently of a quote from Jascha Heifetz after one of his recitals. A fan met him backstage and gushed, "Oh Mister Heifetz, your violin sounded just wonderful tonight!" To which he responded by picking up his violin, placing his ear next to it and saying, "That's funny, I don't hear it making any sound."
............Paul Aviles
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Author: William
Date: 2014-04-09 19:55
Although I use Forestone reeds (vintage) on all of my clarinets and saxophones, I have had some success with Harry Harrisonn carbon fiber reeds from Germany (with the zebra pattern). For me, they respond well, have a consistant tone quality throughout the practical range and do not have the thuddy, dull sound I experience with Legere Bb clarinet reeds, especially in the upper register.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-09 16:05
Were I not so pitchy with Forestone Reeds (I guess now that they have 2 French reed products, I too will say the "vintage" variety that William refers to) I would like them better than any of the Legere models: having tried them all.
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Author: babrinka77
Date: 2014-04-10 07:34
Hey Paul,
Yes, i know it can be a comercial strategie, but in those videos i link here, you have the change to see that the reed they're using is a Legere (the white colour makes it easier), and the sound is great.
I don't know whether they use a Legere reed for the recordings or not, but Daniel Ottensamer is performing Weber's concerto with an orchestra, so i guess he chooses the material which works best for him, anyway, i think this videos demonstarte that the sound can be mor than just "decent" with a Legere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1znoB4uGxE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpyaZmZmU5A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNzla7K2vbg
The product is on the market, and getting better and better, maybe a good cane reed raised to 100% of its possibilities sounds better than a Legere up to its 100%, but the difference is not that much.
In my case, i'm just an amateur, i have a job and a family, not a lot of time to play everyday, so i want to spend the time i have to play playing, not sanding, comparing sides, getting angry with reeds. I just put the Legere on my mp and start playing. I have decided to focus my attention on getting the better sound with the material i have, and seeing those videos i linked before there's just a conclusion for me, if something doesen't let me have a nice tone with a Legere reed is me and my skills, but not the reed itself.
So i had no doubt, i bought this mp designed specifically to play with Legere reeds and bought 4 reeds, listening videos like those i posted before encourages me to have a sound as close to them i could with a similar material. The limit will be me, not the material.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-10 18:52
Dear babrinka77,
Thank you for these links!!!
Of course the main thing that we are hearing is the WONDERFUL musicianship of these two players. For me the real telling example is the master class. You can easily pick up the fact that the sound of the student playing is just fine but he lacks many of the refined gestures that Fuchs demonstrates for him. This is precisely the "point" of the Heifitz story.
That said I do think Fuchs manages the sound of these reeds better - a truly wonderful sound (both play Nick mouthpieces?). I can't help but hear some of the aspect that I don't like in Ottensamer's timbre......or maybe I'm being too senistive to Legere's bloaty nature.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-10 15:51
On close inspection, it is clear that Ottensamer is NOT using a Wurlitzer. In fact the right middle finger is NOT plateau key but it is a ring. Does this then make what he is playing then a "German" system and not an Oehler system? Does any one know what make of horn this is?
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-12 19:08
I wish to respond to my first posting (the height of arrogance?).
I have followed up on the original Legere Signature trial (using the usual 1/4 strength down from my standard strength for a Vandoren) with a trial of the Legere Quebec Cut at full Vandoren strength.
Yes the resistance was just a bit more, but the results are much more worthwhile. Now at lower volume levels the sound IS pretty much indistinguishable from a cane reed. There is more of a "heart" to these reeds. The Quebec Cut has more ridges cut into the vamp that even seem to define the center of the vamp (lengthwise that is).
Still you need to find the "center" of the sound though. It's almost like getting used to a different mouthpiece or clarinet, you have to learn where to 'put' the sound.
Louder and higher material still seem to be at the limits of the Legere's capabilities but I am much happier with these results and look forward to further testing.
But for the record, the Signture Cut at 1/4 softer than the Vandoren equivalent is a non-starter (at least for classical music that is).
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-12 20:30
I appreciate the reporting of all reed experiences, good or bad- scientific or not (I've done plenty of those). We can combine these with others' and our own, to arrive at whatever.
That's why I continue to add status reports to my threads about reeds and other stuff. I do hope that one day I have nothing new to add (because I've settled on such a stable and wonderful setup that I have no need for further experimentation- will I live that long? I'm 60 now).
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-04-13 20:47
Can anyone tell me the difference between Hartmann synthetic carbon reeds and Hartmann German cut synthetic carbon reeds.
I currently use Legere signature synthetic and wish to try the Hartmann carbon one.
Do I order the standard or the German one.
Bb clarinet of course.
Martyn
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-13 22:58
Just looking at the Hartmann website I assume this IS a German company. Real German facing mouthpieces are smaller than French mouthpieces. The reeds are shorter and narrower. For comparison, you can look at Vandoren White Masters which are for all purposes a reed made for German sized mouthpieces.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: babrinka77
Date: 2014-04-15 11:26
Hi Paul!
It seems that you are still in the search for the best synthetic reed.
I have a Playnick Playeasy B2 mouthpiece and i use Legere signature 2 3/4, i'm quite happy with the results, but i have just ordered the Nick-Legere reed which is suposed to be specially designed to work the best with this mouthpiece, i think is closer to the Classic Legere model, so i will report my experience soon.
The good thing, is that a local dealer will let me try five of them so i can choose (i'll clean them before..hahaha), i guess with that model i'll be able to sound excatly as Wenzel Fuchs or Mate Bekavac (they use this same brand and reeds)...hahahaha....
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-15 19:39
Just so more of us know what we are talking about here is a link:
http://www.playnick.at/index.php?cmd=s&id=189
This is the "home page:" http://www.playnick.at/index.php
...............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2014-04-15 19:46)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-15 19:50
AND...
Just found this on the site:
Interview with Wenzel Fuchs. Very interesting.
http://www.playnick.at/user_files/Interview_Wenzel_englisch.pdf
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-04-16 04:35
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> You must have a ligature that locks the reed in, so that zero
> movement of the slippery reed occurs.
>
Such as...?
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-16 14:36
I am currently settling in with a Vandoren Leather ligature with the "Bonade" plate. The first "success" was with the MO ligature but once the label fell off the reed all bets were off. I may score the MO ligature and try it again.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-04-17 02:40
I have found that with my Vandoren CL5 mouthpiece and the Legere Signature reed, the Rovner ligature will hold the reed in place as long as you do not overtighten it.
I will add that the CL5 worked best for me with the synthetic reed after trying many other mouthpieces but it has quite a taper.
When I first bought the mouthpiece Vandoren advised that a 'special' ligature was required which I bought (silver plated at great expense!). This would not hold the reed on at all!
My contribution to this thread is that if you decide to use a synthetic reed, as I do, then you may need to find the right mouthpiece - don't necessarily expect brilliant results on your existing set-up.
I have just tried the Harry Roberts carbon reed and was not 100% impressed but this might be due to it being too hard for me. Quite annoying that they sell these reeds in soft/medium/hard rather than give any indication about the relative numbers e.g. 2, 3 etc.
Martyn
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Author: Zenia
Date: 2014-04-17 18:29
David Blumberg wrote:
"Bonade that Hammer makes with the Silver/Gold/corked inside all around."
Is this an item that is readily available for purchase? The only ones I've seen
are the standard or inverted Bonade ligs.
Thanks.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-04-17 18:48
David, what thickness cork is Mike using?
Karl
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-17 21:12
> Ricardo Morales plays the Signatures 100% of the time for about the past year.
Does anyone know the strength of Legere, which Legere model reed, and which mouthpiece he plays Legere reeds on?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-17 22:39
Ok, the Morales question is a bit off the mark. The problem for each of us is to find the combination of reed strength (as well as which particular cut) and mouthpiece works best for US !!!!!
I'm sure Morales would not dedicate hours getting used to what works best for you.
.................Pau Aviles
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2014-04-18 00:48
Use the Signatures all the time on Eb alto as they don't warp. Used them nearly two years ago when I started playing Bb/A seriously after many years.
They are so consistent for me. Am now on Peter Leuthners for Bb/A but wouldn't hesitate to go back to Signatures if I had a bad reed run. The only clarinet I haven't used them successfully on is Eb sopranino.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-04-18 15:11
The cork is paper thin.
Ricardo plays the Backun L (or C, but mostly L), with a # 4 Legere Reed, sometimes 4 1/4.
His reeds to me feel like a brick.
My tone blends well with his, but is not as dark - the reed strength has some to do with that.
I'd rather be comfortable.
I've played his setup, as recently as 2 weeks ago - is much more "manly" than mine if I had to play his exact setup, I'd pass out fairly quickly.
He plays a 68 mm Backun MoBa Barrel - works perfectly for him, and he does pull out a tad.
Me on a 68, I'd be playing A parts on a Bb
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-04-18 15:40
The newer Backun Mouthpieces with the thicker rails are more suites for the Legere than the older ones.
I'm still a Daddario reed player/21 yr Artist for them. (the dreaded Rico name is now only for their Student line of reeds).
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2014-04-18 15:41)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2016-03-05 19:46
I have switched to the Legere synthic reeds in the Signature style..sizes from 3 to 4 in all situations. I find the ease of articulation and jumps from register easy ..in fact on the BD5 Vandoren I use they match very well and project superbly. After years of being a purist don't you think cane is way too pricey to get in the way of enjoying playing and practicing? Again..retiteration of what others have said this mouthpiece has thick rails..so try and test before buying.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-05 23:41
I (as of today March 5th 2016) am beginning to think that the difference between my earlier results above and what I get now have a great deal to with the style of approach to the embouchure.
The earlier results where based on a using harder reeds and 'pushing' more physically on the reed to get a larger sound. In my current incarnation, I am using long lay mouthpieces with very closed facings and light strength reeds. With this configuration the results of the Legere are MUCH MUCH better.
That said, cane is still the standard (it is noticeably better, more flexible, more forgiving). However, the sound and response of Legere is more than acceptable under these new circumstances. Given that I am in full agreement with the premises above. Constancy, affordability (price over time my friends, price over time), and overall performance make them the way to go for most situations (as long as you can get good results from them).
................Paul Aviles
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-03-06 00:00
Since we're reviving the old thread anyway....
In my very limited experience, it seems legeres favor a longer lay. I also feel legeres perform better with a light embouchure pressure than heavy. With legere, I can make a lighter reed work with light embouchure pressure. But too stiff a reed, or a light Reed and stuff pressure, fails me every time.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Gene Chieffo
Date: 2016-03-08 02:04
I mentioned in another thread, I have made the switch, but I'm keeping it on the down low. I've played only Legere since about the 15th of December. People want to judge right away when they hear you're playing Legere. I just performed the Mozart with a local community orchestra and got nothing but very positive feedback, including from fellow clarinetists who were there. It was a relief that I didn't have to worry about the reed changing or dying over the almost 30 minutes out there. Sound quality was as good as a good cane reed. I got particular compliments on articulation which is aided by the consistency of the Legere.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-08 03:47
Boy that's great to hear Gene.
I had a similar experience lately which I enjoyed immensely because I have been sounding rather "weak" the last few months.
I was just noodling before a rehearsal and a colleague asked me what mouthpiece I was using. I use to bristle in years past when someone would say: "Oh you must have a good reed on tonight" (basically implying that sounding good was a result of some miracle piece of equipment). But I take those remarks as high compliments these days.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: avins
Date: 2016-03-13 11:46
Paul , Ive been using the Leger Signature for quite some time and just cannot revert back to cane . but I tend to agree that I prefer the lighter ones , I use now 3 1/4 with VD m30 , . I d like to know which legere - MP combination you use
thanks Paul
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-13 20:25
Well it is one I am working to at least talk about at some length in its own thread. I have been introduced to a very soft reed combination in concert with the long, narrow facing of German mouthpieces.
Currently I am using a Wurlitzer M3 (designed for use with Oehler system Wurlitzer clarinets) that has a tip opening of .82mm and a facing that is 24.9mm long. I use this with a Legere/Nick #3, German cut reed.
I have to say the results so far (after 4 months of re-learning pitch and resistance parameters) have been quite wonderful !!
................Paul Aviles
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Author: avins
Date: 2016-03-15 16:35
Thanks Paul
Wow I thought that 0.9 was the smallest , May I ask you why you are using the german MP?
Thanks
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-16 02:24
I am just now on the verge of getting the last bit of data (yes, that means ANOTHER mouthpiece!) to use in this process. So I hesitate to get into it too much.
I guess I cannot thank Bas DeJong of Viotto Mouthpieces enough for his information and mouthpieces so it is with that in mind that I will explain a bit. It was a phone call out of the blue from Mr. DeJong in which he began to explain to me that there are a number of players in Europe that use German mouthpieces (meant to be used on Oehler clarinets) on the standard Boehm clarinet. He further went on to explain that the typical German approach to playing is basically (in his words) to "just blow." He is always amused (and confused) with the the predominance of American players who work so hard with their embouchures.
Upon trying the German mouthpiece this affect was borne out. So, with a very small opening and a very long lay; and using a very soft reed (must be a German cut reed such as Vandoren White Master); the result is that you get a very lovely, projecting sound with very little if any effort of the embouchure. This of course has no affect on the amount of air one uses (good use of air should be seen as an immutable fact).
There are pitch considerations of course. It IS a completely different approach to play and shouldn't be thought of as a 'soft' decision. So I wouldn't recommend moving in this direction without good reasons or a healthy amount of commitment.
....................Paul Aviles
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