 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2014-04-05 05:15
This is the 2nd Clarinet part of a song called Jug Blues & Fat Pickin' by Don Freund, 1986, revised 1990.
In the first photo, the middle C# in the first measure is part of a long slur over two measures. Does this mean the accidental carries through and the two middle C's in the second measure are played as a C#?
Inthe second photo, the high B-flat accidental in the second measure carries through the measure. Does this apply to all octaves so that the middle B at the end is played as a middle B-flat? Or is the middle B at the end played as B-natural?
Thanks.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-04-05 03:48
1st photo: No. The accidental ends at the end of the measure. The slur mark just means what it means - play the phrase legato.
2nd photo: Accidentals apply to every Bb in the measure but are cancelled at the end of the bar.
bruno>
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-05 16:19
Just curious... I understand the notation "rules", but I also know that written music doesn't always follow them and sometimes you have to second guess what was intended. The last thing anybody wants a player to do is slavishly follow what's written even when it's wrong. (I'd love to hear horror stories.)
Or of course it could go the other way--- players keep thinking they know better and "fix" something that isn't broken. (More horror stories?) Back in high school my director couldn't figure out if the half step dissonances all through "Canzona" were intended or not. We decided to play as written and grit our teeth.
So... does anyone know this particular piece of music well enough to guarantee it was in fact notated as intended?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-04-05 20:22)
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-04-05 16:24
The difference between a guy who can play an instrument and an artist is that the artist understands that printed music is at best, a rough guide to the reality of the music, a reality that lies within the heart and the talent of the player, and not on the slavish adherence to what's on the sheet of music.
b>
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2014-04-05 20:50
Okay, well I'm only a second clarinet player in a community college band, so that whole "artist" and put your heart in it thing is just a BIT over my head.
Post Edited (2014-04-12 01:14)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-05 21:08
Hey, Johnny- we're not picking on you. I just wanted anybody who read this to realize sometimes the printed stuff is not correct. And especially sublties of notation may not be as intended. In fact, in your case I think whoever wrote it should have explicitly put additional #'s and b's (even though not needed) if intended, or natural signs if that's what was meant. Yes I know that dumbs down the music, but it avoids some bad outcomes. Better safe than sorry.
In a group setting it's even worse, some might read one way and some the other. Ugh!
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-04-05 19:34
The only time that score writers place the accidental sign (b or #) in front of each and every accidental in a single measure is to remind student musicians that the piece has b or # signs in the key signature at the beginning of each line of music. And it's usually only done that way in teaching pieces, exercises, etc.
In other, ordinary music, the musician is expected to have the experience to understand the customaries of musical scoring.
bruno>
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-04-06 00:18
I often encounter cautionary accidentals in the scores slapped on my music stand. And I'm grateful for them, because it answers the question "is it as typeset or is it a bug in the score?"
Re "durability" - I was taught that accidentals were limited to the bar and octave in which they were applied.
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Ben
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Author: brycon
Date: 2014-04-06 00:50
Quote:
Just curious... I understand the notation "rules", but I also know that written music doesn't always follow them and sometimes you have to second guess what was intended. The last thing anybody wants a player to do is slavishly follow what's written even when it's wrong. (I'd love to hear horror stories.)
Or of course it could go the other way--- players keep thinking they know better and "fix" something that isn't broken. (More horror stories?) Back in high school my director couldn't figure out if the half step dissonances all through "Canzona" were intended or not. We decided to play as written and grit our teeth.
The issue of accidentals is complicated; our notation system has always been in a state of fluctuation, which makes the application of rules very difficult. In the past, performers were expected to make chromatic alterations to certain pitches or to add florid ornamentation to melodic skeletons. Try applying these practices to a Stravinsky melody, however, and the critics will have the auto-da-fe roaring before intermission.
The notation system, for reasons that I won't go into, has become incredibly specific. With regard to the marking of accidentals, composers in the post-tonal idiom often re-mark flats and sharps in multiple octaves; moreover, composers writing tonal music after the rise of the post-tonal idiom often follow the same procedure. Performers no longer assume octave equivalency (neither do notation programs like Finale). It is not uncommon, in fact, to see a composer mark every accidental, even if they appear in the same octave.
There are many examples of problematic accidentals in the literature. One of the most famous is in the first movement of Beethoven's Hammerklavier Sonata. There may never be a consensus on whether to play an A or A# leading into the recapitulation. Moreover, I recently found out that there might be a wrong note in the second movement of the Appassionata as well. Who knows? Maybe these pieces have just never been performed by an artist capable of putting their notational matters to rest.
At the least, performers can seek out good critical editions (ones in which the editors explain their decisions in detail). Then, if there is a notational problem, we can make an educated decision and live with it.
Johnny, I would not assume that accidentals carry through the octave (although the music appears to be tonal). Have you checked with the score? See if any other instruments are playing in unison or parallel intervals with your part and also check the underlying harmonies.
Post Edited (2014-04-05 21:01)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-04-05 21:26
I agree with Ben, I always understood that accidentals only applied to the octave and bar in which it is placed - however I find that many French publications seem to expect that an accidental in one octave will apply to all octaves in that bar.
As I get older I find myself pencilling in more cautionary accidentals - just for safety. This is essential when clarinets are divisi on a part and the accidental is first marked in the part you are not playing but then that same note enters your part later in the bar.
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2014-04-06 16:49
Re "durability" - I was taught that accidentals were limited to the bar and octave in which they were applied.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Then you obviously have never played any of the Jeanjean 18 Etudes!
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-04-06 17:18
> Then you obviously have never played any of the Jeanjean 18 Etudes!
True. :-)
When you google against "accidentals different octave", then you get a sh*tload of discussions around this topic. Apparently the practice changed in modern music, alas, it's still subject to debate from which "method" to which.
That's exactly why I love cautionary accidentals. :-)
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Ben
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Author: garybuss
Date: 2014-04-06 16:49
Big Howdy !
I was a music student at Memphis State when Freund wrote this piece, and we (Wind Ensemble)were one of the first to perform it. I think it was commissioned for the TN Gov School band or the All-State band - I can't remember. He wrote some fairly cool stuff and was a fun guy to work and study with. I still have the 1st clar part, and yes there were quite a few changes made (misprints). The origional score is still in the band library with the corrections.
The 1st example - you play all C#'s- even in the next measure.
2nd example - play Bb at the end of measure ( it fits in with the altered scale).
Hope this helps.
Gary Buss
Woodwinds-University of Colorado-Denver
Post Edited (2014-04-06 20:50)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-06 17:27
Gary- I'm glad to see a definitive verdict on the original question! Thanks.
Bryan- "Try applying these practices to a Stravinsky melody, however, and the critics will have the auto-da-fe roaring before intermission."
Man... I'm glad I've never had to perform or depend for my living on the kind of environment implied by this statement. Though I am sure some of you thrive in and enjoy every ounce of that intensity. More power to you. But as always, I'd enjoy the horror stories. (I must have a strange sense of humor. I live next to Disney World and have many friends who've worked there for decades. I've always wanted to hear all the interesting stories from Mouse security that never made it into the outside world. But of course, once they told me then they'd have to kill me.)
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2014-04-06 17:49
Thanks to everyone for the comments, especially garybuss. In light of the sentiment of being an "artist" versus a "beginner", almost nothing you play from the depths of sixth chair will be noticeable in a recording, UNLESS you're playing wrong notes!
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Author: Chrisspr
Date: 2014-04-06 18:19
Forget the artist's personal qualities which have no part in the rudiments of music. The rules for the usage of these incidentals have already been well exposed much earlier in this thread but lets be clear.
The incidental carries until countermanded and extends from the lowest note to the highest note attainable on any given instrument.
I was taught this under professional tuition at the age of 6 and I am now 74 years of age; incidental status has never changed nor should it or writing music would become a nonsense.
Chris Spreckley.
You never know there just might be a 1939 Selmer BA., Tennor, or a very posh Buffet Clarinette at the local car boot sale for the price of a beer. O'no, now stop dreaming or you might start getting really fussy.
Post Edited (2014-04-06 22:22)
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2014-04-13 20:41
Here's another similar question. Should the low A be an A-flat or A-natural?
And, I have a bit of a gut feeling that the low B at the end of this phrase should be a B-flat? Or is it supposed to be B-natural as written?
Thanks.
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