 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: orchestr
Date: 2014-03-27 20:18
I have been having an issue lately with my reeds (don't we all?) and need some advice. I have been playing professionally for a while, and I should know how to fix this, but I can't seem to find the problem!
My reeds (Traditional Vandoren 3.5) often have an airy sound, AND YET they play like reeds that are too soft. They'll close off if I bite at all, and if I relax my embouchure too much, say, to lip something down, the sound suddenly gets really buzzy, sounding like a fifth grader. At first I thought it was my mouthpiece (a B40Lyre), but not all of the reeds do this, only some. My theory is that maybe I'm thinning the reed too high up when I balance them.
I don't adjust my reeds much. I balance the reeds by taking wood off of the sides about 1/4" to 1/2" down from the tip, and I occasionally thin the tips for response using Ridenour's ATG tool. If the reed is still resistant, I'll take wood off the sides further back, and then adjust the shoulders.
Does this sound familiar to anyone? Am I doing it backwards (tip to shoulders instead of shoulders to tip)? Or maybe taking too much wood off of a certain area? I can get a good sound on them, but there's often just an underlying sound of air coming through the horn, especially noticeable when I diminuendo to nothing.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-03-27 21:17
By sides, it almost sounds like your are working the "shoulder." I've done this to improve the response of a reed for more "meat" but I balance in that sweet spot between the tip and heart just off center on the side that is too strong.
Of course, this time of year with the dew point going up and donw like a rollercoaster, you can bet your reeds will NOT do exactly what you want right now.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-28 00:03
B40 lyre, long facing, relatively open tip mouthpiece where reeds are being ATGed. Got it.
Maybe a reed cut from larger cane, like the V12 stock, might just provide the gusto to stand up to the adjustments you're making.
Are you doing any adjustments to reeds outside of ATG protocol, using a reed knife say?
By the way, sanding towards the back and middle of the reed, "against the grain" is correct, and precisely the thing ATG stands for.
Good luck.
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Author: orchestr
Date: 2014-03-27 20:56
I may have been unclear (hard to describe with this kind of thing). I only use the ATG at the very tip, mainly for responsive articulation. I use a knife everywhere else. But I work big-picture from the tip back: Balance near the tip, if it's still unresponsive I adjust the sides in the middle, if still unresponsive I adjust the shoulders near the bark. But I'm wondering if I should maybe start at the shoulders and do my adjustments toward the tip?
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-28 04:19
Brian, while I respect your right to use any method of wood removal that gets you from reeds that are difficult to play, to those that are conforming, given the fact that you appear to already by an ATG customer, I might suggest that you put that reed knife away.
Since I got the ATG system I pretty much only use a reed knife to make sure the table is as flat as can be.
Here's why I think that way. As described by Tom Ridenour in the ATG system, the reed is seen as a spring, designed to give and take. When examined closely, and as you probably know, that reed you're working on has a smooth but curved contour from bottom to tip and from middle out. Keeping this contour as you remove wood allows for the proper transfer of energy from the vibrating tip you get to move with air pressure, to the center and base of the reed which vibrate less and less.
Taking a knife to the reed is IMHO, a little like trying to further smooth a fine marble sphere using a chisel. With even the most minute of shavings, you are making tiny gouges in the reed that upset this contour.
The people at Vandoren go to great lengths to uniformly cut their reeds. Their strength is a function of cane density I am to understand, not cut (meaning all reeds are cut the same.)
IMHO, we want to preserve that cut and contour, only removing material to balance out the sides for strength.
Without meaning to sound like "there's one right way," please consider taking out the ATG DVD and book and following Tom's advise more closely for nearly all aspects of reed care. Table flattening is easily done using the sandpapers he recommends, on a piece of glass, rubbing the flat base of the reed.
(Oh, I know what the reed knife is good for. I cut a tiny slice in the base with the knife, the reed perpendicular to this slice, and then slide the reed's flat base back and forth on the sandpaper using the knife in this cut.)
I don't think any one technique to reed fixing is the cure all to reed problems, but I do think the ATG method is the best, most reliable, simple, and well thought out system out there.
Noted respect though is given to the fact that your buzzing my have nothing to do with how you are finishing reeds.
Good luck.
Post Edited (2014-03-28 05:38)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-03-28 06:43
You need to be careful when you work on the tip of any reed. Most commercial reeds are already pretty thin at the tip, which you can see if you gently run a thumbnail behind the tip from one rail to the other, or just gently flex the tip area from behind the reed with your finger. This isn't to say "never" work on the tip - if it isn't balanced it needs to be adjusted. But one of the caveats, for me, of ATG is that you're *always* going over the tip, at least until the forward edge of the block is so far down the rail that the sanding surface is lifted off the tip edge. Tom Ridenour says explicitly that he likes to start with a reed that's heavier than he likes to play. He doesn't say so, but I think it's his way of avoiding thinning the tips too much while he goes after wood farther along the sides.
So if you're doing a lot of sanding in the general area of the tip, you may be getting a softer tip edge than you want but still not be getting good, even vibration farther along the vamp. Gently flex each side of the reed (from the back, sighting over the front surface to see the deflection) and see if there's a sudden change in resistance as your finger deflects the reed back away from the tip area. Ideally the slope both toward the edges and back toward the end of the vamp should be gradual without sudden steps or bumps that can act as "fences" or dividing points.
It sounds from your description of your adjustment process as though you have a series of stages - parts of the reed that you scrape in a routine succession to correct resistance. You may get better results if you take some time to carefully examine the reed, both against a light source and by careful flexing, to find the area most likely to be generating the resistance (a practice that, as I remember from the ATG materials, Tom Ridenour discourages). That may mean not touching the tip at all if it's already very flexible and even.
FWIW, I have found that some mouthpieces are more forgiving than others of stiff spots in otherwise vibrant reeds. Some reeds give me that frying sizzle sound unless the reed is really perfect. Others seem not to care and almost never sizzle or buzz. I don't know anything about the B40 Lyre, but maybe it's on the more demanding end of the spectrum.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-03-28 07:08
ThatPerfectReed wrote:
> Taking a knife to the reed is IMHO, a little like trying to
> further smooth a fine marble sphere using a chisel. With even
> the most minute of shavings, you are making tiny gouges in the
> reed that upset this contour.
This depends a good deal on the way you use the knife. There's not much reason why a knife blade can't remove wood in the same way the flat table of a sanding block does - it's a question of technique. In fact, beyond a certain point along the reed's contour, most of the contact between the ATG sanding block and the cane surface is along the leading edge of the block, which makes it function very much like the knife blade.
>
> The people at Vandoren go to great lengths to uniformly cut
> their reeds. ... IMHO, we want to preserve that cut and contour, only removing
> material to balance out the sides for strength.
Which, of course, we can only do by removing material, which necessarily compromises the cut and contour. We, by removing cane, are trying to compensate by thinning for spots that are more dense than their surroundings and that interfere with even transfer of energy. IMO, the ATG block sometimes is too blunt a tool, cutting through areas that don't need to be meddled with.
>
> I don't think any one technique to reed fixing is the cure all
> to reed problems,
This is an important point. I'm not writing to bash ATG - I use mine when I think it's the best way to get at whatever I find is wrong with the reed. But, if you've chosen reeds that are essentially the right strength to begin with and have tips that already flex as necessary for good response, finding an adjusting technique that doesn't take more out of the tip in the process may be more effective than dogmatically following a set procedure (ATG or something else) no matter what's actually wrong with the reed.
Karl
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-03-28 07:33
Some reeds just stink and take too much scraping just to be acceptable. In the time it takes to get the bugs out you could be playing on a good reed. Give them the heave-ho.
bruno>
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2014-03-28 16:05
Years ago I played the B40 Lyre, then the B40, and am now playing a Kessler-Backun Type III that is probably similar to the B40 Lyre (1.16, ML-L facing).
On those mouthpieces, I mostly played #3-3.5 Rico Reserve (Red Box, non-classic) as well as some VD Traditional and the occasional V12. Now I'm playing #3 VD Traditional and Gonzales GD (which I find better that either Rico Reserve or V12, and as recommended above, are a bit wider cut).
Typically, I would think an "airy" sound means that the reed is too stiff or that it's strength-curve does not really match the mouthpiece facing. In general, I am a proponent of playing the softest reed that will meet your performance expectations in terms of response, tone, intonation, volume, etc. In this respect, perhaps trying a #3 and trimming it to achieve the correct strength might be worth a try.
The "buzzy" sound that you describe when relaxing the embouchure sounds like you might also be changing the intensity and focus of your airstream.
One does not have to lose tonal focus/quality when relaxing the embouchure. The embouchure should be firm, but [hopefully] exert minimal pressure on the reed. The tonal integrity comes from voicing the airstream and keeping it strong and intense. I think of this approach as "supporting" the reed rather like the "acoustic suspension" school of speaker design supports the speaker cone. In recent years I've also come to appreciate Robert Marcellus' admonition that we keep the upper lip strong and "tucked in" (e.g., by pressing the clarinet into the formed embouchure).
Finally, I have found that getting the right adjustment of reeds can make a huge difference in how they work with your playing style and setup. With the tip of the reed pointing "up", using reed-rush, I smooth the vamp and typically polish a "corridor" just to the right of the centerline. I find this makes the reed more "accommodating" and responsive. I also work/balance the tip a bit because my facing opens up more in the last 1/8". I have also noticed that while working the right side of the reed improves response, working the left side (usually only the tip and rail) will reduce buzzing and make to tone a bit rounder.
Of course, you may have to experiment to determine what works best for you.
Bob Barnhart
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-03-28 21:16
If you want to save some money, time, and fussing, buy a Scotch Brite pad and cut off a ¾ or 1" wide strip with a scissor. It works better than reed, is cheaper (a single Scotch Brite 3 X 5" pad will last the rest of your life), and its "grit" stays constant.
I've yet to wear out the first strip I cut off. I'm thinking I'll never need the rest. I may donate it to my wife for her household needs.
bruno>
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Author: orchestr
Date: 2014-03-28 22:52
Thank you all for the help. I will often use the ATG to smooth down whatever I have done with the reed knife, but I agree with Karl, the reason I don't use it more is that it goes over the tip on every pass. Especially if you are trying to balance one side, when you are finished with the ATG, you end up with a reed that is extremely thin on one side of the tip. I used to use the ATG for everything and found that my reeds began whistling and squeaking all the time. I mainly use it for tip work (just a couple of passes), or if I do use it on one side, I go back over the entire tip to at least even things out.
Regarding the "stages" I go through, it is of course all based on testing the reed. Many reads need no adjustment, it depends of if they past my balance tests, my response tests, and my articulation tests.
But in the end, I think my problems may either be based on the weather (my reeds are still warping quite a bit, flatter reeds do make the problems less), or my mouthpiece. I am taking the mouthpiece to a craftsman next week to have him check for asymmetry or warpage, even though it is only a few months old.
From now on, I think I'm going to keep my adjustments to the back 2/3 of the reed and see if that helps the buzzyness. It's actually more like the "woof" strings can get. Maybe I'll upload some recordings as attachments, it's really the strangest sound, and in my 20+ years of playing, it's a new thing, which is why I'm tempted to blame my mouthpiece!
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-03-29 00:16
If your reeds are warping you are probably soaking them in a glass of water to wet them. Wet them in your mouth. Despite assertions to the contrary, it's the time-tested way to warm and moisten reeds. Some claim that wetting reeds in your mouth "digests" the reed fibers because of the "enzymes" in saliva. I have never heard a more absurd assertion. Saliva doesn't contain enough to digest anything. Nor will it "clog up the pores" of the reed material. That's more nonsense.
Flatten the bottom of your reeds by rubbing them on #600 or 800 Wetordry abrasive paper placed on a small piece of plate glass. Go to your local glass man and ask him for a rectangle about 5" x 10" in size, and ask him to smooth the edges. Plate glass is supremely flat. When you sand the reed, keep the vibrating end beyond the end of the abrasive so it doesn't get sanded along with the rest of the reed.
Bruno, MD>
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-03-28 21:37
orchestr wrote:
>
> But in the end, I think my problems may either be based on the
> weather (my reeds are still warping quite a bit, flatter reeds
> do make the problems less),
You've been playing long enough that you probably know the difference, but to be clear, are your reeds developing a curvature along the length of the back (warping) or are the tips just becoming wavy when you first wet them? I'm sure you know the difference - just checking.
It sounds like you're having a lot of warped reeds. If you really mean that they're warping, I have to wonder why. I know Bruno attributes it to soaking reeds in water, but I use water as often as I wet reeds in my mouth and I don't have any problem with warped reeds. So, if you're experiencing a lot of warped reeds, you should probably evaluate how you're storing them. If you're using a suction test to determine if they're warped, the problem may be with the table of your mouthpiece.
Karl
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