 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-27 16:13
Hi
Question 1
I recently purchased on trial 2 mouthpieces. I like them both for different reasons but am determined to keep only one. Their price difference is small enough between the two not be of issue to me.
While I feel myself armed with enough criteria to answer this following question, I’d like to hear from others as to what criteria they might use to choose between the 2 mouthpieces, to see if there’s things I haven’t thought of that are important.
Deliberately void of any information on mouthpiece or setup, what (other than flipping a coin) might be the things that you ladies and gentlemen of the clarinet bboard might use to sway you one way or another with respect to making a choice between 2 mouthpieces? Please consider your answer before reading question 2 which covers more detail. I’ve considered sound, intonation, twelveths, articulation, projection, volume, ease across the bridge from open “G” to throat “A” to full fingered “B,” to name a few.
Question 2
The two mouthpieces are a Rico Reserve X10, and a Vandoren M30D. I love the smoothness and centered sound that the M30D gives me, while the X10, tends to, IMHO, somewhat make me sound more like a jazz clarinetist in the upper registers.
I respect jazz players and the sound they deliver—which if course isn’t to say they all play the same. I just like and play the classics and enjoy the sound of players like Louis Cahuzac, or Jon Manasse more (which is not to bucket them together either.) Cahuzac, I’m to understand, was a double lip player, which I am not.
And yet, I get the sense, maybe falsely, that the X10’s sound will travel better. It seems much more capable of fortissimo play, and yet maybe the M30D’s concentrated sound might travel better in a large and/or open space.
I like the M30D’s sound better and am partial to it. I am coming from a B45. I play an R13, (i.e. a Boehm/French not a German) clarinet whose French barrel tenon is just a tad bit too short for the longer German compatible M30D mouthpiece, although tuning doesn’t seem to be an issue. Recall that the M30D can be played on French or German setups.
Now, how does your answer change, including trying other mouthpieces? Do people think the regular M30 (sans D) might be a better way to go short of getting an appropriate barrel? And do such barrels even exist as stock items? Or is it okay that my barrel is ever so slightly too short for the mouthpiece as long as I’m playing in tune?
I’m certainly aware of all of the mouthpiece’s structural differences, from a tip opening, rail width and facing length, etc. point of view, and how these attributes can be expected to affect play. I’ve also checked the bboard for 411 on both mouthpieces.
Thanks.
Post Edited (2014-03-27 16:16)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-03-27 18:41
Hi,
I have no direct input on your question, sorry.
But I am mystified (as I have shared elsewhere) how any player can evaluate sound from the player's position. That is, if what you wish to judge is how the clarinet sounds to others at various distances. (If you're only playing for yourself, then fine, just listen and judge.) Does anyone really think they're hearing it like a listener 10 or 20 feet away? And of course room acoustics and directionality could have big effects.
Are you playing primarily for a particular judge? (conductor, prof, spouse?) Let them make the choices from their preferred listening position and setting.
Otherwise, I think you'd have to rely on recordings. And then how you record, and from where, 100 factors!, would color what you hear. If you wanted to compare 2 or more configurations, you'd have to be slavish about doing everything exactly the same way, then you could A/B back and forth between the sample recordings (of the same phrase!), preferably without knowing which is which, to establish a preference. Absent all these precautions, methinks you are wasting your time and energy.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-03-27 18:42)
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-27 19:54
Clearly, I have to get the opinions of others, at least some of which are in the know and some not in the know regards "things clarinet," of how each sounds in open space.
This decision would be a lot easier for me if I found out that the M30D actually projected as well if not better than the X10.
You points about self evaluation being somewhat oxymoronic Stan, particular while one is playing, are well received-thanks.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-03-27 19:57
Ummmm......
Once you've played in context (more than once), you should kinda know what that that felt like and how it sounded to you. Then you only have to do it again.
I can't address the specific mouthpieces other than to say that if your 12ths are in good shape, then the "D" should be fine. I ordered a very early "D" that was not even set up to play on a German clarinet (wrong tenon diameter) so I never even got to try it.
When trying mouthpieces the first thing I look for is response. It has to keep up with the tonguing requirements and produce clear responsive articulation. Then I look at the tuning of it (well, this IS the first important thing really but if it's not "keeping up" who cares if it plays in-tune!). After that, it just has to be fun to play.
I did just have to select from several very closely worked Greg Smith mouthpieces and finally went with one that produced the most focused sound with the least effort (it was not an easy task!).
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-03-27 20:09
Perhaps my concerns are topic for another thread, so I'll try to be brief here (a challenge for me in any setting, LOL). Here on BBoard I've recently read that a player's own evaluation of which of 2 horns sounded better was reversed from remote listeners. And clearly that could be true of any comparison. That is, to sound your best you almost certainly need to choose alternatives that are WORSE from your own perspective. And it's a nonlinear problem, that is- you really cannot adjust for it. There's a reason they put the sound system controls in the back of the auditorium, not up front with the mics.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-03-28 00:10)
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-28 00:28
"the most focused sound with the least effort "
Thanks Paul--you just helped me more than you may realize. ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
Stan: I hope the sounds players like are not near invariably the opposite of what listeners like. I just don't know, but the sound system being in the back is a point is well taken: literally and metaphorically (to an audience listening to clarinet play).
The will of the masses must beat out the will of the one. Perhaps I need to keep both mouthpieces: one for practice, for me, and one for play.
(Honey..remember when I said I'd return one of the mouthpieces?......)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-03-28 00:42
I don't mean to sound like it's hopeless. All musicians have to deal with this issue, some more than others. Vocalists have it bad, what with all the sound through bone and sinuses. But they still have to learn how to adjust their tone based on what they hear. And pianists too (which I dabble in) find that the player's position is far from ideal for evaluating piano tone.
The best I can say at this point is, if your 2 alternatives are both musical (sound pretty nice), and the difference is only based on something of taste (how much high freq, low freq, how woody, or for a vocalist how nasal, or for a piano how crisp vs mellow, etc etc)- there is a good chance your choice will depend on perspective. And you just need to be aware of that, whether or not there's any practical way to get around it. If it's really important (you're the principal for NYC) you need to verify in the actual setting. In the worst case, they reupholster the seats in your concert hall and that makes you need to use a different ligature, though only 3 members of the audience can hear the difference.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-03-28 00:49)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2014-11-10 21:26
I really think resistance in your set up is a personal issue...ie. learning to play sotto voce over long periods of time in the upper register has more with command of your own muscles and diaphragm. The m30d I one of the least favourite vandoren concotions of mine. It seems to produce a lovely sound but inflexibly..the player should try doing sforznado half notes across the break with this mouthpiece and then examine the timbre and tuning.
I suspect the Vandoren people think people in north America are hung up on |German sound which is more like a cuckoo sound...the question is always what the final result is and how much are you working. Intonation aside a lot of the beauty of the X10 is the natural way it sounds out with the right reed without a lot of embouchure finnigling.. I play professionally a lot and practice a lot so I think I could play anything. Remember, a lot of people play very open mouthpieces on clarinet in orchestras and sound great because they have learned how to adapt reeds and work within that set of parameter. A jazz mouthpiece is whatever mouthpiece you play jazz on!
I would add try the m30 or even m30 lyre because these subtle differences in facing make a mighty big difference
David Dow
Post Edited (2014-11-10 21:30)
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