The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-03-05 10:28
Attachment: DSCs-09628.JPG (111k)
Attachment: DSCs-09622.JPG (130k)
OK- this subject has been covered on BBoard many times. I went back and read a few of the old threads, and that's what inspired me today to try to figure out whether this was important in my rig or not.
I'm playing on my 2nd Vandoren 2RV mouthpiece, purchased from new old stock 2 or 3 yr ago. It is identical to an old 2RV that came with a clarinet almost 4 yr ago, but I have seen other 2RV's that varied. I have tried a half dozen other mouthpieces against my 2RV's and it's never been a contest.
Well, it took me a while, but I eventually noticed that the reeds I was buying (and trimming with my cheapo trimmers) did not match the tip shape of the 2RV (see photo 9622). Then I read that there in fact IS a difference between 2RV and 5RV- 5 has a more modern tip shape. I have not confirmed this. So I thought that eventually I'd order a 5RV and see if I could tell a difference visually and/or in playing.
But I've been scrutinizing every aspect of my play in trying to solve issues and get more stable and predictable day after day. And I read somewhere here about various ways to fix the reed tip when your trimmer isn't doing the right shape. Most of those address the reed being too flat- shift the reed and trim again left and right corners. But my reeds are too curved for my mouthpiece, so that doesn't work.
Fortunately, I read that some players do the shaping with an emory board or sandpaper, and I have my ATG sanding block sitting right here with fine paper on one side. So I started on a couple of reject old reeds and sanded the ends to shape (see photo 9628). Wasn't perfect, but they played better right away! (One I had rejected for persistent chirping quit doing that!) Then I tried it on one of my good regular reeds, and it was immediately improved over the entire range.
The jury is still out on how much of a consistent long term improvement this will be. I've learned unfortunately not to get too excited about a day or 2 good outcome from a change of any kind. But this does seem kind of a no brainer and something I should have fixed a long time ago.
So I guess I've got even more reason now to try a 5RV.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-03-05 11:02)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2014-03-05 13:38
On oboe reeds some people sand the very tip of the reed . This is not a bevelling procedure but just a blunt minute shortening process. It might only be a stroke or two. (with almost no pressure) What it does is create a rough tip surface. It gives a bit of resistance to the reed and tonally gives some texture to a thin sound. Likewise with a clarinet reed, filing will create a different result than clipping.
I'm not sure that perfectly matching the reed tip to the mouthpiece makes a great difference.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-03-05 18:52
Stan -
Leaks at the corners of the tip are by far the most common cause of whistles and poor response. Even after adjustment (photo 9628), it looks like you have a leak on the left corner.
To check, move the reed a tiny amount left or higher on the mouthpiece to make sure it seals tight. The difference between a good seal and even a tiny leak is not subtle.
Cordier trimmers are expensive but match mouthpiece tip curves better than others. If you still have problems, use an alto sax trimmer and learn to move the reed left and right to make the curve fit the mouthpiece tip perfectly.
Also, in my experience, a clipped tip is better than one shaped with an emery board. In your photo 9628, there is a stubble of xylems (fibers) sticking out past the edge of the tip. I use an emery board only when the corner of a reed has a flyaway "ear" sticking out.
Ken Shaw
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Author: kilo
Date: 2014-03-05 19:27
Some trimmers have a mechanism for altering the shape; my old Vandoren is adjustable this way.
A friend of mine has two pieces of sheet metal which are filed to the exact shape of the mouthpiece tip. He sandwiches the reed between these two pieces, lines them up with just the slightest bit of the reed exposed and burns the tip off with a propane torch!
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2014-03-05 20:08
I have a very old Cordier Bb reed trimmer that, while it cuts cleanly, seems to have a tip-curve that is not perpendicular to the axis of the reed (i.e., it cuts the tip in a non-symmetric way). I've compensated for this by rotating the reed within the trimmer before making a cut and that seems to work fine.
However, when the spring-clasp that holds the reed broke I tried ordering a new Cordier only to find that it did not cut cleanly (i.e., it always left a "tag" on the reed-tip). I sent it back and requested another one, and it had the same problem!! I didn't want to repeat this a 3rd time, so I took the reed-carriage off the new trimmer and put it on the old one!
I'm curious whether others have found similar defects in contemporary Cordier trimmers and if not, where I can get a "good one"?
I'm also curious as to the effect the reed-tip shape has on its performance (sound, response, intonation?) as well as the effect of a mismatch between the reed-tip shape and the mouthpiece-tip. For example, VD Traditional reeds have a very round tip, while most of the newer reeds have a flatter tip curve. Most of my mouthpieces (VDs and Zinners) have a much flatter tip-curve than my Kanters (Riffault blank). It would appear that in the past, tip-curves were rounder and are now generally flatter. If so, then why?
Bob Barnhart
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-03-05 20:49
As I said, the jury's still out for me, as to how big an effect this is. If it proves as significant as it seems, I'll be both happy for the improvement and ticked that it took me so long to do something about it.
In engineering we talk about first order vs second order effects. I already know that for me, reed tip shape is NOT 1st order. That's because I have tried many mouthpieces that perfectly match my reed shapes that did not play as well for me as my 2RV with the mismatch. I have a Selmer C* that's pretty nice, matches the reeds, but I still prefer the 2RV.
So short term I'll figure out how to do the old profile cleanly, with a cheap alto trimmer, and/or a knife, and/or coins or metal pieces cut to shape, and/or fire(!). And I'll watch for those stubbles.
What is it with clarinets and fire? Just the thing for 7th grade boys in band. We've seen all color of clarinets, why not flames?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-05 19:48
So, all other things equal (as if we could actually keep all other things equal given the nuances from one reed to the next), how does a reed tip’s conformity to the shape of the mouthpiece tip affect play?
If I could clone a reed, I’d want, provided nothing is lost in its balance, for it to match the mouthpiece tip as if it was designed for it. Assuming the mouthpiece a good one (itself a generous assumption), the reed’s conformity to its shape should allow the reed to vibrate in the manner the designer intended for it to do. Of course we’re assuming the designer had a vested interest in not just making money, but doing so by introducing conscientious product.
But in the real world, its conformity to the tip, I’m suspecting is going to be, using your engineering parlance, a second order effect. That isn’t to say we should thumb our noses at improving second order effects, but rather, know their place in the scheme of importance.
I’d also like to say that my opinions apply solely to cane, as opposed to synthetics like Legere and Forestone, where reed placement (if not mouthpiece tip conformity) has been reported by many players, this one as well, as well as manufacturers, to make a difference.
Consider that anytime you go cutting the tip of a reed, whether by reed trimmer, or conformity of its tip profile to mouthpiece tip via, say, an emory board, even when done with near perfect symmetry to an already balanced reed, that that reed is probably going to have to pay a visit to the “reed balancing shop” to make sure it vibrates uniformly on both sides. Consider also that you may be unknowingly hitting a good secondary affect with your actions. To point: shorting a tip, all other things equal, might help you more reliably reach your coveted C7 .
As you are first to admit Stan, your results to date with reed matching tip are both good but anecdotal. But since you found good results, consider investing some time in repeating this and see if all other things equal, it makes things worth your while. Also consider what you are NOT doing with this time to improve your play and judge if it’s worth it.
I will say that anyone who tells you that such actions are throwing off the balance that the reed manufacturer built into the reed (short of custom single reed shops) is, I believe, living a fool’s paradise. Vandoren, for example, cuts all of one brand of reed identically. It then sorts all these reeds of near identical physical dimensions by fiber density into strengths. Assuming the left half of the reed vibrates and bears similar density to the right half, simply because they’re cut the same way would be as silly as assuming that nature produces no diversity, even within a single reed.
The comedian Steven Wright, with his child like observational humor, has remarked that he isn't afraid of heights, just “widths.” I point this out to demonstrate concern already voiced by Ken with why the reed in the example doesn’t obscure the left rail. Is the reed ever so slightly positioned to the right? Or are you dealing with a mouthpiece whose rails, at least at the tip, are thicker than your reeds?
I applaud your desire to improve not only your play, but its consistency, while at the same time pointing out that we all picked the wrong instrument if consistency was our thing.
Our saving grace is that oboe players have it worse….maybe.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-03-06 02:52
As an engineer I'm wanting a checklist. Is there such a thing somewhere here already? I'm imagining it broken into sections, like real basics (your clarinet is in good repair with no leaks or stuck keys), mid level niceties (your mouthpiece matches your skill level and desired style of play), and high end finesses (use resonance fingerings to improve tone). With each item would also be "why this is important" and "what happens if it's not right". It might be a pretty long list.
Of course we would argue till the cows come home about where some items rank, or even if they belong there- but that would be part of the fun. And the goal would be that somebody like me, either 4 yr ago when I hadn't even restarted clarinet, or any time later in my journey- could study the checklist and ponder what to attack next. Even now I wonder what I might read and say, "Of course- eureka!". Sometimes very obvious things can escape our attention (which is why when someone brings a question to BBoard they get asked all kinds of silly things, because you just never know).
Somewhere on the list (mid level? high end?) would be "The shape of the tip of your reed precisely matches the shape of the tip of your mouthpiece."
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-03-05 22:25)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-03-05 23:43
I believe one good argument for having tip reed match mouthpiece shape as exactly as possible is that it provides maximum lee way to make those small vertical and sideways adjustments that often just bring a reeds response to life.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-05 23:45
As a technologist, I appreciate the allure of having a list, or flow, or decision tree, a playbook, no differently than the "man with the nuclear football" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_football holds when the U.S. President travels, which contains among other things the "playbook" of nuclear retaliatory options, God help us all that such things should ever come to fruition.
Stan, in my humble opinion (I'd like to hear others) the "troubleshooting chart" that is "clarinet playing diagnostics" has a very small section, way down on the bottom, only after many other diagnostic questions have been answered, that asks the question "how well does the tip of the reed conform to the tip of the mouthpiece?" You had to go through a plethora of other questions first on this tree before the troubleshooting tree ever got you here.
The answers to this question were listed in the manual as "pretty mediocre," and "not pretty mediocre." Answering with the former got you the suggestion that you get a more mouthpiece tip conforming reed. Answering the latter took you to a decision box that 1000s of other arrows in the tree point to, which, albeit frustratingly, says "practice more." Even still, why not buy on trial a newer 5RV. If it's similarly faced to your current mouthpiece, it might provide a good control.
And that decision tree was built on years of experience with 1000s of players, where in your specific case, the question on reed conformity being asked much much sooner might have made your life easier.
Stan, watch this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R2GQJgig8s. What does one of the (IMHO) finest clarinetists in the world, (sadly discrimated against because she's a woman), having just finished a blazing fast conclusion to Mozart's 1st mvmt flawlessly, on a big basset clarinet, sans strap, do?
It's not go to Disney World. It's get mad at her, or so she believes, lackluster reed.
I'd love to hear other people's lists--and they have been made. What I would not want to hear was Kal (Opperman) or Leon's (Russianoff) lists when in a bad mood. I have visions (I never studied under them and have enormous respect for them) of either of them slaming the "Klose" studies book on the floor, stomping on it, and shouting about playing this book 8 hours a day, that there is no magic bullet, and virtuocity occurs only where genuis meets tenacity.
I hope none of what I've said dampens your spirit to further ponder this, or other mysteries of "this clarinet thing."
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-03-06 01:36
In reverse order...
Russ- as always, your posts are enlightening and entertaining. I'm glad there's not much stuffiness or over-enforced decorum here on BBoard. Alas though, I do fear that some of you have hifalutin work settings.
Norman- good point. With my corners so far down I've been limited how much I could adjust position.
Bob- I tend to buy cheap hardware and it's hard to complain when it doesn't work so good. Sorry to hear that even the pricey stuff isn't always reliable. Machines fail us, we end up doing so much "by hand", or with the wrong tool for the job. Nobody has yet answered your question of "why did they change the shape?"... perhaps there was no real reason, like the changes in the shape of men's suit lapels, which serve only to make men buy more suits.
kilo- I agree that direct simple approaches are often the best. I'm going to try to make my sanding method work better, perhaps by following up with a nail buffing tool.
Ken- thanks for confirming a reason the profile may matter a bunch. I will follow this through one way or another.
John- ah, oboe players- bless their hearts. Nothing replaces the oboe in the orchestra, music would be much poorer without it. So I'm glad some folks are willing to tackle the beast. So if reed tip shape is unimportant on oboe, I'm glad you can relax about at least one item.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-03-22 07:28
A few days ago I got a vintage "Cordier brevete S.G.D.G. france" trimmer from an eBay seller, for only a few $. It has seen better days (no cutting lever), but I was able to make it work and it cuts cleanly. And the shape is much better matched to my 2RV than my Riyin trimmers. And I was able to quit butchering my reed tips with sandpaper. I was ALMOST overjoyed. But alas- the cut is not symmetric, much too tight a radius on right hand side. And jockeying reed position does not help either. But my reeds did play better cut this way.
Then yesterday my new cheapo Riyin alto sax trimmer arrived. With a lot of fiddling I figured out how to use it effectively, it was not simple. And now all my active reeds are trimmed to match the tip shape of my 2RV quite nicely. I did have to rebalance them all after the extra trimming.
And it does appear, after all the fussing, that it was worth the trouble. And anyone using a 2RV (or 5RV which others assure me is IDENTICAL IN ALL RESPECTS, what about 5RV Lyre or others?)- would be well advised to pay attention to their reed shapes and do they match up? If not, you may need to try the same operations I'm now doing to see if it improves play for you as well.
And I will ask one more time here- that anyone who has a 5RV compare it to my photos and tell me if the tip looks the same shape. And report here, yea or nay. Thanks!
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-05-29 09:41
Update...
After over 2 months of fiddling with reed tip shape, I concluded that it was doing more harm than good. Specifically, since I never got a precise cutter match for the 2RV tip, I was eyeballing every reed differently. Some of them did look pretty nice, but I was nervous every time I needed to trim- the operation was very fussy. And I always lost a lot of reed tip with that first trim on a new reed.
So with my latest batches of new reeds (Gonzalez GD and FOF) I decided to leave all the tips untouched as long as possible, and when a trim proves needed, to return to my original cheapo standard Bb clarinet reed trimmer. This matches the original shape of my reeds pretty nicely- and trims cleanly. So my reeds, as before, are not a perfect match for my 2RV tip- but today I no longer think that matters very much. Tomorrow I might tell you something different.
And I did get a 5RV- and it looked just like my 2RV- tip and all. Played like it too. So the 5RV is on the auction block- no reason to keep both.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-05-29 21:22)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-05-29 23:33
Some saxophone players have even used a quarter and a lighter to trim their reeds by burning them shorter!
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The Clarinet Pages
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