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 Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: muppie (---.static.tpgi.com.au - (TPG Internet Pty Ltd.) , 04 Australia)
Date:   2014-03-21 02:50

Sorry for all the new topics I've been starting about mouthpieces. I'm not sure whether I should bunch them all into one or split each point like this.

Anyhow, I'm wondering which mouthpieces people use - the 13 series - the so called american pitch 440Hz or the non 13 series?

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: AAAClarinet (---.lightspeed.bkfdca.sbcglobal.net - (AT&T U-verse) Bakersfield, CA United States)
Date:   2014-03-21 10:15

From what I've read here, I would stay away from the 13 series. For some they just don't tune well.

AAAClarinet

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: BbMajorBoy (---.skybroadband.com - (Sky Broadband) Addlestone, N7 United Kingdom)
Date:   2014-03-21 12:13

I have a Vandoren B40 13 series and I think it an excellent mouthpiece. Tuning is fine to me.

Buffet E13 Bb
Buffet R13 A 1979

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: cyclopathic (209.22.79.---)
Date:   2014-03-21 17:01

it probably depends on your set up. If you have to pull alot to play in tune and 12th are flattish it would help. If your 12th are on sharp side, don't.

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: Chris P (---.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com - (Tiscali UK Limited) Brighton, B6 United Kingdom)
Date:   2014-03-21 18:10

If your general pitch is on the flattish to in tune side, then don't use a 13 Series mouthpiece as you will struggle to play up to pitch on them and that will knacker you out pretty fast.

It's better to be sharp than flat on clarinet as it's much easier to flatten things than it is to sharpen things, so stick to a regular Vandoren mouthpiece. 5RV Lyres will play on the sharp side and are excellent for ease of the top notes.

Chris.

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: kdk (---.phlapa.fios.verizon.net - (Verizon FiOS) Langhorne, PA United States)
Date:   2014-03-21 18:39

The other side of the argument is that the Series 13s don't sound exactly like the Traditional Vandoren mouthpieces. So, if you prefer the sound quality of the Series 13 mouthpieces but your pitch with them is on the money to slightly flat, use a shorter barrel, but one that you've chosen deliberately that doesn't negate the sound difference you're trying to preserve.

Karl

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: Chris P (---.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com - (Tiscali UK Limited) Brighton, B6 United Kingdom)
Date:   2014-03-21 19:04

If you don't want to shorten your barrel, you can always have the mouthpiece shortened by 1-2mm at the tenon end instead. I did this to my M15 to make it play sharper than it was.

Chris.

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: kdk (---.phlapa.fios.verizon.net - (Verizon FiOS) Langhorne, PA United States)
Date:   2014-03-21 15:21

Chris, how easy is it to trim the mouthpiece back at the other end to allow the shortened tenon to go all the way into the barrel socket? Is the hard rubber any more difficult to work on a lathe than wood?

Karl

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: Paul Aviles (---.redstone.army.mil - (US Department of Defense Network) Madison, AL United States)
Date:   2014-03-21 15:36

Chris correct me if I am wrong, but when an enlarged baffel and tone chamber area are what flattens the pitch, foreshortening the mouthpiece does not change the tuning characteristics of the mouthpiece as much.





.................Paul Aviles



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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: Chris P (---.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com - (Tiscali UK Limited) Brighton, B6 United Kingdom)
Date:   2014-03-21 20:09

Ebonite isn't too bad to work with, but it stinks. Make a mandrel to fit in the mouthpiece bore and mount this in the lathe chuck so you can turn the end of the tenon and the shoulder down by the correct amount.

I'd suggest you make the tenon fit the full depth of the socket so there's no gap between the end of the tenon and the base of the socket. Having a slight gap between the top of the socket and tenon shoulder will ensure this - it only needs to be about 0.1-0.2mm at the most.

Chris.

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: cyclopathic (209.22.79.---)
Date:   2014-03-21 16:31

Also VD tenons are generally on shorter side, there could be .5-1.5mm gap. First I'd look if installing tuning ring in socket on MPC side needed.

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: Chris P (---.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com - (Tiscali UK Limited) Brighton, B6 United Kingdom)
Date:   2014-03-21 20:55

Shortening the mouthpiece was suggested to me by Jon Steward at Howarth's London shop as I didn't exactly want to shorten my barrels (CTs and Series 9s). I shortened my "13" Series M15 by 1.5-2mm which brought the pitch up nicely.

Chris.

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: fskelley (---.res.bhn.net - (Time Warner Cable) Windermere, FL United States)
Date:   2014-03-21 17:24

Usually when somebody says something stinks, they're speaking figuratively. However, in the case of working with ebonite (rubber), it's literally true. All I did was sandpaper the end of a barrel that was too tight, and man oh man...

Stan in Orlando

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: Chris P (---.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com - (Tiscali UK Limited) Brighton, B6 United Kingdom)
Date:   2014-03-21 18:01

It's the sulphur content in ebonite that gives it that classic rotten egg smell.

Bakelite also stinks when broken or cut, but it's not a room-filling smell like ebonite.

Chris.

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: kdk (---.phlapa.fios.verizon.net - (Verizon FiOS) Langhorne, PA United States)
Date:   2014-03-21 22:33

Paul Aviles wrote:

> Chris correct me if I am wrong, but when an enlarged baffel and
> tone chamber area are what flattens the pitch, foreshortening
> the mouthpiece does not change the tuning characteristics of
> the mouthpiece as much.
>

Chris P wrote:

> Shortening the mouthpiece was suggested to me by Jon Steward at
> Howarth's London shop as I didn't exactly want to shorten my
> barrels (CTs and Series 9s). I shortened my "13" Series M15 by
> 1.5-2mm which brought the pitch up nicely.
>

Isn't the pitch a function of the internal volume of the mouthpiece rather than just its length? Shortening it would reduce the total volume.

Karl

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: Tony Pay (---.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk - (Zen Internet Ltd) Wokingham, Q2 United Kingdom)
Date:   2014-03-21 19:05

If you have a barrel that you like, but find that it's sharp – sharp, that is, to 'the going pitch' in your neck of the woods – then a 13 series mouthpiece may be your solution.

(Alternatively, you can use tuning rings between barrel and top joint.)

However, I find that there is variation in quality between mouthpieces that have identical labels. So, I have an excellent CL5/non-13 that I use on the barrels of my flattish 1889 and 1906 Buffets; and on more modern instruments, I use a CL6/13 that I also like.

But it's worth having the shorter barrels and shorter mouthpieces in case I have to play in a cold environment with a sharp piano (in Italy, say).

Nevertheless, I also have CL5s and CL6s, 13 and non-13, that I seem to like a bit less. I bought them on spec, and keep them because SOMETIMES a particular reed and piece of music works OK with them.

So, I think if I had to deliver a message to this discussion, it would be that there is no 'solution'.

BUT, there are SOLUTIONS, depending on the circumstances.

And that applies to playing, too. Good players don't just do ONE THING THAT WORKS.

FLEXIBILITY is the name of the game; and, hopefully, the outcome is excellence.

Now, obviously, that excellent outcome LOOKS LIKE consistency. But, there's no consistency in the differing responses of the player – including changes of equipment – to varying circumstances.

Tony



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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: Norman Smale (---.skybroadband.com - (Be Un Limited) Newcastle Upon Tyne, I7 United Kingdom)
Date:   2014-03-21 19:51

Ebonite is very easy to turn.
I have found that a simple wood dowel can be used as a mandrel, just taper slightly then add a turn of masking tape to give grip. Use not too fast speed and take smallish cuts from tenon and shoulder of mouthpiece. Absolute concentricity is not critical here as you are only cutting the outside diameter.



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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: TomS (---.hsd1.ar.comcast.net - (Comcast Cable) North Little Rock, AR United States)
Date:   2014-03-22 04:36

OK ... just to clarify some information about Vandoren MPs ... correct me if my info is wrong ... please add more if you have it ... it is interesting to me.

The 2RV, 5RV and 5RV-lyre were designed by (now deceased) Robert Vandoren

The B40, B40-lyre, B45, B45-lyre, B45-dot, B46 and maybe the 11.6 were designed by Bernard Vandoren

The M13, M13-lyre, M15, M30, M30-lyre and M30D were designed by (or with input from) Donald Montanaro.

The internal geometry is different for these three families or MP. The "M" series shares similar internal dimensions to some of the old Henri Chedeville MPs. I don't know if the RV and B series have copied from previous art.

In addition there is a Profile 88 option, which just has a longer, slimmer bite or beak.

And we have the 13 series, which adds some length in order to play A=440

Also, where did the name "13 series" come from? The Buffet R13?

Please correct and/or add information. I am curious to learn more ...

Tom

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: Chris P (---.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com - (Tiscali UK Limited) Brighton, B6 United Kingdom)
Date:   2014-03-23 10:08

Karl - "Isn't the pitch a function of the internal volume of the mouthpiece rather than just its length? Shortening it would reduce the total volume."

Shortening the length of any tube of any volume will raise the overall pitch.

Chris.

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: clarnibass (---.red.bezeqint.net - (Bezeq International) Tel Aviv, 05 Israel)
Date:   2014-03-23 11:35

>> Chris correct me if I am wrong, but when an enlarged baffel and tone chamber area are what flattens the pitch, foreshortening the mouthpiece does not change the tuning characteristics of the mouthpiece as much. <<

As much as what...? Are they necessarily trying to change the pitch as much as whatever that is...?

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: cyclopathic (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net - (Verizon FiOS) Waldorf, MD United States)
Date:   2014-03-23 07:35

@Tom

>Also, where did the name "13 series" come from? The Buffet R13?

most likely as the series was design/marketed to make R13 built to 442Hz play in american pitch.

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: muppie (---.static.tpgi.com.au - (TPG Internet Pty Ltd.) , 04 Australia)
Date:   2014-03-23 12:04

I have decided on getting all 3 of my mouthpieces in the non 13series. Order placed. Hopefully getting them in a week or two. Maybe later on I'll try a 13 series but for now I think the differences in the models i.e. M15, M30, 5rv etc would make more of a difference to me than 440Hz vs 442Hz. Maybe when I have reached that level of finesse I would be able to tell.

Thanks for all the input though, which helped me decide on getting the non 13series. I got two in profile 88 and 1 in traditional beak. Looking forward to not having to move mouthpieces and just pick up either clarinet to play.

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: cyclopathic (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net - (Verizon FiOS) Waldorf, MD United States)
Date:   2014-03-23 16:44

do you guys play at 440 or 442 on your side of the pond?

BTW VD thread http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=403015&t=403015 states that the diff btw traditional vs 13 is chamber design, as VD only uses 2 blanks (13 and non-13) for all MPCs

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: Paul Aviles (---.knology.net - (WideOpenWest) Madison, AL United States)
Date:   2014-03-23 16:49

Ostensibly US uses A=440, however there are some august orchestras here that tune a bit higher for more "zing (?)."





...........Paul Aviles



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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: Chris P (---.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com - (Tiscali UK Limited) Chichester, P6 United Kingdom)
Date:   2014-03-23 16:56

We generally tune to 440Hz in the UK under the right conditions (when temperatures are between 18°C and 22°C).

In my opinion as far as concert or military bands are concerned with pretty much all wind instruments, if it's cold, then it's best to tune to around 438Hz and if it's hot it's best to tune to around 442Hz. Unless there's a fixed pitch instrument such as a piano, keyboard or tuned percussion involved - unfortunately.

Personally I don't see the point of trying to tune down to 440Hz when it's sweltering, or trying to tune up to 440Hz if it's freezing - so long as everyone is in tune with each other at the start, everyone will warm up near uniformly and there's little need for retuning during a performance (except after an interval when everyone's instruments have cooled down again).

Chris.

Post Edited (2014-03-23 13:06)

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: Tony Pay (---.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk - (Zen Internet Ltd) Wokingham, Q2 United Kingdom)
Date:   2014-03-24 01:19

Three or four years ago I had to rehearse using my Ottensteiner A -- at that time it was optimised to go at A=438 -- in the Brahms Trio. (The out-of-town period piano was promised to be tuned at that pitch.)

We couldn't rehearse in London with the piano that we'd be using in the concert, but were able to use the BBC Maida Vale studios as an interim measure.

I thought that I'd be able to handle a couple of vibrations sharp -- A438 to A440.

However, it was a great difficulty; and I found that the reason was that NOW all BBC pianos are tuned at A=442!

FOUR vibrations sharper was too much, so we all suffered a great deal:-(

So much for International agreements.

Tony

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: Siq (---.livetim.timbrasil.com.br - (Tim Celular S.A.) Rio De Janeiro, 21 Brazil)
Date:   2014-03-24 01:35

I don't think I could use anything other than profile 88 nowadays...
I'm too used to it

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: Chris P (---.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com - (Tiscali UK Limited) Chichester, P6 United Kingdom)
Date:   2014-03-24 01:52

The Profile 88 beak is very comfortable - I went for Profile 88s since they were first launched back in 1988 (5RV Lyre and B46), but I mainly play on A1 crystals.

Chris.

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: clarnibass (---.red.bezeqint.net - (Bezeq International) Tel Aviv, 05 Israel)
Date:   2014-03-24 09:22

>> FOUR vibrations sharper was too much <<

So just stick to a very low range and it would be much less :)

Not exactly the same but it reminds me of when correspondence chess was played by mail (well I read about it, didn't live it :)). In a match between the US and the UK, the UK sent their resignation... only to receive a draw offer some time later :)

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: Tony Pay (---.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk - (Zen Internet Ltd) Wokingham, Q2 United Kingdom)
Date:   2014-03-24 16:06

You'd have preferred the units in the story to be cents??

(As they say, "Understanding this exchange is left as an exercise for the reader")

Tony

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 Re: Vandoren Mouthpiece - 13 series or not?
Author: Paul Aviles (---.knology.net - (WideOpenWest) Madison, AL United States)
Date:   2014-03-24 16:13

I was involved in an outdoor military band concert in the middle of an Austin Texas Summer (under a withering sun). As military bands tend to do, we staunchly stuck to the idea that we needed to tune to a fixed pitch source, an electric piano. The concert was a disaster. I can't imagine what the actual pitch was for the brass (particularly the tubas) but that's ok, no one else could either.





.............Paul Aviles



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