 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: muppie
Date: 2014-03-19 13:36
What is the difference between the Vandoren mouthpieces lyre vs non lyre of the same model name? For example M30 vs M30 Lyre.
From the "specs" difference e.g.
M30: tip opening 115, Facing L
M30 Lyre: tip opening 113.5, Facing L
5RV: tip opening 106.5, Facing MS
5RV Lyre: tip opening 109+, Facing M
It's not like we can say "lyres" have bigger tip opening, or longer facing. So I am confused about this. Were they just trying to avoid coming up with a new number such as M35 or 6RV ?
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-03-19 15:30
I'm under the impression that Lyres are for players with smaller mouths.....
Bob Draznik
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-03-19 12:31
My experience (and this is without the benefit of taking measurements) is that the Lyre mouthpieces ARE either more open or have a longer lay. I would say it is the emphasis is on the longer lay that makes some of them play "gimpier" for me. The M13 Lyre is a good example of this. I love the M13 but my sound "bottoms out" on the Lyre version.
The notable exception is the 5RV Lyre which is an industry standard.
The way Mike Lomax described length of lay was to take a wooden ruler and hold one end firmly to the edge of a desk and then he strummed it. Now moving the ruler so that more is hanging off the desk, the free part strums slower and more easily. If you move the ruler so that more is held on the desk and a smaller portion is left hanging off the desk, the strum will be quick and more resistant. The first example is a "longer lay" with a freer blowing, weaker nature. The second example is a "shorter lay" which represents a more resistant set up.
I like the fact that you are researching more and trying to untangle the mystery of mouthpiece sizing. However, the affect those numbers have on what you experience can only by sussed out by trying them for yourself.
............Paul Aviles
P.S. The "smaller mouth" mouthpieces are the 88 Series
Post Edited (2014-03-19 16:32)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-03-19 16:46
Then there are also:
M13 (100.5 L), M13 Lyre (105 ML)
B40 (119.5 ML) and B40 Lyre (117.5 L)
B45 (119.5 ML), B45 Lyre (127 ML) and also B45 Dot (119.5 ML)
The B45 Dot has the same facing measurements as B45 and also B40.
So the question, which I can't answer and had never really thought about before, is: what relationship exists between the two members of each pair? If there is a definite design relationship, then what are the design differences among the B40, B45 and B45 Dot, which all have the same tip opening and curve length?
Karl
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-03-19 15:21
Vandoren says that the dot mpc's have a larger chamber for more warmth and depth.
Lyre mpc's have a longer lay than their non-lyre counterparts, that's all.
Dash thirteen (e.g. B45-13) are tuned for A=440 playing instead of A=442.
Bruno>
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Author: muppie
Date: 2014-03-19 19:33
I understand the explanation / analogy with the wooden ruler. However, what exactly does longer lay mean....
- Do I need to use stronger reeds? (I'm guessing yes)
- Is it easier / harder to blow?
- Is it easier/harder to squeak?
- I am sure this means I'd have to push the MP further in when playing
Since there are two things: opening and length...
If I'm not mistaken:
wider opening requires softer reeds
shorter lay also requires softer reeds....
what is the difference between wide+short vs close+long ?
So many questions - analysis paralysis!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2014-03-19 19:39
muppie wrote:
> - Do I need to use stronger reeds? (I'm guessing yes)
Probably softer
> - Is it easier / harder to blow?
Yes
> - Is it easier/harder to squeak?
Yes
You GOTTA try them. Guessing won't work. Really. Take it from me, an older beginner. Even if it works perfectly mechanically, it might not be in tune, and then you're in "try a hundred barrels" land ...
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Author: muppie
Date: 2014-03-19 19:45
Yeah I'm going to get 3 mouthpieces.. crazy really when really eventually I'll probably just end up using one.
I'd just like to get a bit more information so the mouthpieces that I'll pick to buy and try aren't totally random.
Post Edited (2014-03-19 15:50)
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-03-19 19:55
Author: muppie (---.static.tpgi.com.au - (TPG Internet Pty Ltd.) , 04 Australia)
Date: 2014-03-19 19:33
I understand the explanation / analogy with the wooden ruler. However, what exactly does longer lay mean....
It means that the part of the mpc facing that does not touch the reed at rest is longer.
- Do I need to use stronger reeds? (I'm guessing yes)
Not necessarily. Try what you are using now.
- Is it easier / harder to blow?
You won't notice much of a difference. We're talking about a few mm.
- Is it easier/harder to squeak?
Not applicable.
- I am sure this means I'd have to push the MP further in when playing.
No, you won't. And you shouldn't.
Since there are two things: opening and length...
There are many more "things" than two.
Window length, side and tip rail width, high or low baffle, tip opening, facing length (facing is sometimes called the "lay"), chamber size and shape, flat or hollowed table, Mpc material. To name most of them.
If I'm not mistaken:
wider opening requires softer reeds.
Depends on how developed your embouchure is.
shorter lay also requires softer reeds....
See above.
what is the difference between wide+short vs close+long ?
One is wide and short, the other is close and long. Try both with your present reeds. Longer facings are "claimed" to be easier-blowing.
So many questions - analysis paralysis!
Exactly! Play!
Post Edited (2014-03-19 19:58)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-03-19 20:13
Bruno wrote:
> Lyre mpc's have a longer lay than their non-lyre counterparts,
> that's all.
But this doesn't seem to work. M13 (L) is longer than M13L (ML). M30 and M30L are both listed as Long. B45 and B45L are both ML. 5RV (MS) is indeed shorter than 5RVL (ML) and B40 (ML) is shorter than B40L (L). The tip openings are also inconsistent as to which is less open and which more.
I completely agree with Mark that for muppie's purposes, choosing a mouthpiece has to be done by trying several, and looking at the advertised measurements isn't a useful way to decide. Manufacturers make all those varieties for a reason.
But as a separate issue, it would be interesting to know what the Lyre versions actually have to do with their non-Lyre counterparts.
Karl
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2014-03-19 16:23
In my experience the Lyre versions have a more 'mellow' and rounder tone compared to the non-Lyre versions.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-03-19 16:31
Jeroen wrote:
> In my experience the Lyre versions have a more 'mellow' and
> rounder tone compared to the non-Lyre versions.
But, if that's true, what is the physical difference? Lyres have larger chambers? Higher baffles?
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-03-19 16:35
Boy did this get confusing.
My answer to the "wide+short" vs "close+long" is......
Vandoren B40 = wide+short
Vandoren M15 = close+long
As for the length of lay (distance from tip of reed to where it meets the mouthpiece) in relation to where you put the mouthpeice in your mouth, I have to disagree with my colleague Bruno. If you have a longer lay, then the mouthpiece must be inserted just that much MORE to get to the 'sweet spot.'
Again, the best way to quickly arrive at "the right spot," is to continually play and open G while bringing in more and more mouthpiece. At some point you'll get a great big "SQUAWK." Just back off slightly from this point, and THAT'S the 'sweet spot.'
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-03-19 23:58
My compatriot, Paul said: "As for the length of lay (distance from tip of reed to where it meets the mouthpiece) in relation to where you put the mouthpeice in your mouth, I have to disagree with my colleague Bruno. If you have a longer lay, then the mouthpiece must be inserted just that much MORE to get to the 'sweet spot.'"
How much more, Paul? About 1/8th to 3/16 of an inch? Think a new player can gauge that? And make an informed decision on the difference? And actually PERCEIVE the difference? (See my point?)
The thing is, if beginners spend their time calculating, testing, figuring, buying different mpc's etc., they'll never learn how to blow the damn horn and make music on it.
Besides, their embouchures are not developed enough to make decisions from trying different mpc's or analyzing the ones they have. It's just a waste of time for them, and frustrating into the bargain. They'll end up more confused.
My suggestion is to put the horn together and blow the snot out of it - play scales, arpeggios and Klose etc. exercises until their right thumb feels like it's paralyzed.
Then ask these questions a year from now.
B> :-)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-03-20 03:37
Point being, you should use the proper point where the mouthpiece was designed to be played in order to maximize the sound with that set-up.
This is NOT an arbitrary point. I cringe at the occasional pedagogical suggestion to "take in more mouthpiece!" So I merely offer an EASY way to find it, no guessing, nothing at all hard about it. Once you are used to finding your mouthpiece's "spot," just get used to playing where that is.
Yes, many players in their formative stages have a tendency to take in too little mouthpiece, choking off the flow of air and not allowing the reed to vibrate properly. But if that is not your problem, the suggestion to arbitrarily take in more mouthpiece is counterproductive.
And if you really want to know the differences between a Lyre and a non Lyre mouthpiece, you'd better know how to hold it in your mouth to find out.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2014-03-20 14:56
Karl wrote:
> Jeroen wrote:
> > In my experience the Lyre versions have a more 'mellow' and
> > rounder tone compared to the non-Lyre versions.
> But, if that's true, what is the physical difference? Lyres have larger
> chambers? Higher baffles?
The chambers look identical. Most Lyres have larger tip opening and longer facing. But there are more parameters involved like facing curve, tip rail etc. Tip opening and facing length only do not determine everything.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-03-20 13:25
Thanks, Jeroen. You're absolutely right. There are a number of separate but interrelated parameters in a mouthpiece's design that can - are meant - to affect tone and response.
My earlier posts to this thread basically expanded on muppie's question about the inconsistent relationship between Lyre and non-Lyre facings and it turns out that some Lyres are more open and some are less open. Some are longer and some shorter. There is no consistent relationship. So, my question was, if Lyres are consistently more mellow, what dimensions explain that difference, having already established that the explanation is not to be found in the tip opening or curve length (or, apparently, the baffle height, as you've observed).
Karl
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