 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-03-12 22:32
Can anyone comment on the following extracted from my music theory book,
Quote:
Minor scales
When you start and end a major scale on the sixth note you get a natural minor scale...
As an example, play a C major scale CDEFGABC and move up to the 6 sixth note or down two notes to A
Now play the same eight notes ABCDEFGA and you get an A minor scale.
i.e.
C major same notes as A minor
C sharp major same notes as A sharp minor
cont…..
...As you remember from Chapter 3, a minor scale is based on the same notes as a major scale, but starts on the sixth note of that scale...the key of A minor used the same notes as C major.
i.e.
A minor same notes as C major
A sharp minor same notes as C sharp major
B flat minor same notes as D flat major
B minor sdame notes as D major
cont…
end of quote.
Mart
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-03-12 22:52
Sounds right to me. There are 2 or 3 varieties of minor scales. The one you hear most often (I'm sure somebody will tell us what it's called) would be ABCDEFG#A.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-03-12 23:27
Yes, I found this totally misleading and it really confused me when practicing my minor scales.
I would even suggest that it is incorrect.
So explain it to me please.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2014-03-12 23:49
The minor mode in a given key signature begins on the sixth note in the corresponding major mode with that same key signature. That's how you find the key signatures for a relative major/minor combination.
If you start (using a C major key signature of no flats/no sharps) on the sixth note and follow up an octave (A B C D E F G A) you have the natural minor scale.
The basic notes used in a major key (without accidentals) are the same notes used in the relative minor key (without accidentals).
There are other modes too:
Ionian (1st note, equal to major scale-C D E F G A B C)
Dorian (like starting on the second note of a scale-again with the no flats/sharps the Dorian would be D E F G A B C D)
Phrygian (third note of a scale-E F G A B C D E)
Lydian (fourth note-F G A B C D E F)
Mixolydian (fifth note-G A B C D E F G)
Aeolian (6th note and same as natural minor-A B C D E F G A)
Locrian (7th note-B C D E F G A B)
The whole point of any of these is that the location of half-steps and whole-steps within each mode is different from the other modes. Play the A natural minor scale and notice that the half-steps are in between the 2nd and 3rd notes in the scale and the 5th and 6th notes in the scale. The C major scale (using the exact same pitches) has half-steps in between the 3rd and 4th notes and the 7th and 8th notes. That's what makes all of the modes different from each other.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-03-13 01:21
I always think of the relative minor scale of a major scale as a minor 3rd lower than the relative major. (sharing the same key signature)
There are 3 types. Natural/Melodic/ & Harmonic.
Natural minor scales are often used in Jazz (I think)
Melodic minor scales are used in tunes (melodies)
Harmonic minor scales are used in harmony. And also tunes if you want it to sound 'turkish'
An interesting detail about the harmonic minor scale is the leading note of this scale is the only place where you can form (find) the diminished 7th.
For example :- The leading note of A harmonic minor is the raised 7th. (G#)
Therefore the diminished 7th of that scale is G# B D F.
BJV
"The Clarinet is not a horn"
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2014-03-13 01:25)
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-03-13 02:32
So are you saying that the melodic and harmonic minor scales that I am trying to learn on the clarinet are nothing to do with what the writer is talking about?
No wonder I am confused!
In that case I would add an observation that the melodic and harmonic scales I am learning sound in some way pleasing to my ear. Playing a scale as directed by the author i.e. playing A minor as A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A, (on all the white notes) doesn't have this 'feeling' - it seems to sound all wrong!
In playing the clarinet am I ever going to need the "natural minor' scale as directed above?
Mart, getting more confused every minute ;-)
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-03-12 22:48
This all started because I was practicing my melodic and harmonic scales on clarinet, in an effort to try to understand the structure of minor chords and 'what they were 'all about' I went to the theory book and read, and read, about minor chords.
Not realising he was talking about a totally different minor chord altogether I became totally confused.
Thank you Katrina and Barry (and Bob offline) for your explanations.
Mart
P.S. still confused but maybe a good nights sleep will clear the grey matter.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-03-12 23:40
Natural Minor (which is also the "descending" melodic minor)
You "should" practice all THREE forms of the minor scale.
.............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2014-03-13 03:41)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-03-13 06:19
Mart, I understand your confusion - my students usually become confused in exactly the same way when we first start working on minor scales.
The idea of starting a minor scale on the 6th step of a major scale is only a way to introduce the basic interval structure of a minor scale and to learn the minor scales' key signatures. But once you know that A minor has a key signature of no flats and no sharps, or that G minor has a key signature of 2 flats, you can begin to work with them independent of their "relative majors."
When you practice scales from written out material, the editor of the material skips this step of finding the key signature of the minor scales - he (she) writes the scale out for you with either a key signature or with chromatic signs in front of the notes that need them, which makes the relationship between major and minor scales unnecessary and, for the purpose of technical practice, irrelevant. A D (natural) minor scale has a key signature of 1 flat, regardless of how you discover it.
The natural minor is rarely used in Western music because Western harmony depends on the presence of the leading tone (the half-step below the tonic). So the most basic variant (or "alteration") of a minor scale is to raise the 7th note by a half step to create a leading tone, called the harmonic minor because its main purpose is t provide the leading tone that's essential to Western tonal harmony. In A minor, you raise G (the 7th note) to G-sharp so it can lead harmonically up to A.
Back in the times when traditional Western harmony was evolving, the interval between the 6th step of a minor scale and the raised 7th note (technically an "augmented 2nd") was found by singers to be vocally difficult. In order to smooth the interval out and create an even stronger push toward the tonic in ascending scale passages, the 6th step was also raised by a half-step.Since this was done for melodic purposes, it's called the melodic minor. The upward pull is unwanted in downward movement, so the raised notes are lowered in the descending melodic minor scale (making it identical to the natural minor).
These three forms of the minor scale are what you are probably practicing (or at least harmonic and melodic are). But they are the same minor scales the author of your theory book is talking about. He only adds the extra step of explaining the reason for each minor key's signature.
Lots of books, when they teach modal music (look back at Katrina's post) say to find the Dorian mode by starting on the 2nd step of a major scale and using the major scale's key signature. But once you've worked out what notes are in that Dorian mode, its relationship to the major scale is no longer relevant. D Dorian has no sharps or flats - all by itself without any further reference to the fact that it's the 2nd step on C major. Likewise for the other modes in Katrina's list - of which the Aeolian mode is identical to what we call the natural minor.
Maybe more than you wanted to know - sometimes my students find that understanding all of this clarifies things for them, and other students don't. YMMV
Karl
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-03-13 15:23
Karl,
That helped and I have printed out what you have said so that I can refer to it and eventually understand it.
Mart
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2014-03-13 17:22
Yup...Exactly what Karl and Barry said. My post was geared towards introducing the relationships, but once you "get" that part of it, you learn each scale by itself. And Karl's intro to the harmonic and melodic forms of minor scales is excellent.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-03-13 22:22
The only minor scales they specified in the Associated Board syllabus when I did grades were the harmonic and melodic minors.
C harmonic minor ascending - C D Eb F G Ab B C
... and descending - C B Ab G F Eb D C
C melodic minor ascending: C D Eb F G A B C
... and descending - C Bb Ab G F Eb D C
You use the harmonic minor scale when building triads on every degree of the scale, so in C minor you have:
I - C minor (C-Eb-G)
II - D diminished (D-F-Ab)
III - Eb augmented (Eb-G-B)
IV - F minor (F-Ab-C)
V - G Major (G-B-D)
VI - Ab Major (Ab-C-Eb)
VII - B diminished (B-D-F)
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-03-14 16:15
Thanks Chris,
I have the ABRSM book of scales and am working towards my grade 3 exam in a few months time.
The book, of course, shows the harmonic and melodic scales and these I am trying to master. However, to me, the 'sound' of the scale helps me play it and I can appreciate the 'sound' of the harmonic and melodic scales so as I play I am able to suggest to myself where to add a sharp or flat i.e. I play scales by 'feeling' rather than playing each note as written.
The ABRSM scales book and the ABRSM guides do not mention the 'natural' minor scales. I came across them in my theory book as I was trying to get a better understanding of minor chord structure and, as mentioned above, the information completely threw me as 1. they had no relationship to the melodic and harmonic scales that I had come across and 2. played as a 'natural' minor scale they just didn't sound right.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-03-14 20:51
The melodic minor has more tension as it goes up and relaxes when descending compared to the harmonic minor which is more 'Middle Eastern' or exotic sounding, both ascending and descending.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-03-15 02:55
Chris,
Yes, I can visualise that and 'hear' what you are talking about.
I just can't find the same musical relationship with these 'natural' minor scales.
I am thinking of starting a pressure group to get all 'natural' minor scales banned.
Perhaps I should get out more !
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