 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-02-01 06:50
Whether clarinets in fact become worn out, be it from a combination of use and/or age??? seems well debated in this board's archives with most people believing that with enough use (not abuse) you can degrade a clarinet to a point where overhaul/restoration will still not yield a horn with proper intonation/sound/harmonics etc .
But how do you know that state of permanent disrepair has arrived? Is it bore size increases, is it failure for the horn to perform for multiple experienced players, that once sang like a bird, even after overhaul by an equally capable tech?
What was it about your overblown horn that had you reaching for the shovel to bury it or a nearby "revolver" to euthanize it? I'm not talking about the unplayable clarinet here that "had a metaphorical catastrophic stroke" and developed a joint splitting longitudinal (lengthwise) crack.
I'm talking about the horn you had a "long talk with at the kitchen table, showing it brochures of this wonderful clarinet nursing home that would take care of it because you no longer could."
(No disrespect meant to a real conversation that I and many others here have had with loved ones.)
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-02-01 08:14
What IS blowing out a clarinet? What are the actual physical changes in a "blown-out" clarinet?
I don't believe it for a minute - unless it's such a cheap piece of junk that the wood body actually warps and twists out of shape moving keys and rods off center and rendering the tube almost impossible to blow through.
Can you "blow out" a top-of-the-line Buffet? A Selmer? A LeBlanc?
Tell me how. And tell me what happens physically.
B>
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-02-01 03:57
My hard rubber and plastic clarinets will NEVER 'blow out', but the mechanism could wear out a bit. It's' possible to 'blow out ' a mouthpiece but it apparently takes a long time. This is caused by the 'hammering' of the reed against it.
(The Clarinet is not a horn)
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2014-02-01 08:59)
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Author: hgp_atx
Date: 2014-02-01 09:08
If you don't take care of your horn yes you can easily "blow it out." If you get a Buffet R13 and don't swab it or clean it, yes, it will get ruined, but after a very long time. However you can destroy a mouthpiece in a matter of years if you swab that out. Don't swab your mouthpiece! Instead clean it w/ lemon juice.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-02-01 05:12
In addition to my 2011 R13, I also have a fine 1912 Buffet Bb clarinet and a fine 1921 Buffet A clarinet, all of which have been played a lot. None of them show signs of a "blow out". I also have a 1889 Buffet clarinet with the best sound which is certainly not "blown out".
I saw one plastic contra alto clarinet with a very rough interior and a dull sound that must have not been swabbed enough, however.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-02-01 13:17
@hgp_atx
>Don't swab your mouthpiece! Instead clean it w/ lemon juice.
putting it into vinegar and cleaning it with Qtip get calcium built up dissolved.
-----------
with respect to OP and anatomy of blown clarinet, depending on your point of view it is an interesting question or an urban myth perhaps.
search woodwind.org Ken Shaw posted a few years back on X-raying clarinet and considerable calcium built up around toneholes from saliva (yes like tooth plaque). Can't imagine cleaning it.
Dried out wood would swell up after oiling, but the changes really small; IMHO re-pad could have more impact on intonation. Dirt build up in and around tonehole edge would probably have the biggest potential impact on sound quality. Also corrosion in register tube.
if clarinet hasn't been played for many years, pads are likely not sealing anymore, and even a tiny leak could have big impact low register. It can remedied with pad check/re-adjustment or re-pad.
Potential cracks and tone-hole edge chips.
Springs could weaken out or turn, so even if the pad holds vacuum they would open from pressure (usually issue with rh F#/G#).
keys could be bent, loose from wear or get too tight/stuck from rust and lack of oil. Even if they work, not fast enough?
Post Edited (2014-02-01 13:32)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-01 12:20
Was 'blown-out' a term coined up by manufacturers to promote the sales of their new instruments?
It's a load of old guff as far as I'm concerned. Unless a clarinet has been ruined by using a very abrasive mop or something with a sharp end that has scratched the bore to bits or suffered years of neglect which have compromised playability in every possible manner, any old clarinet that is in reasonably good shape should still prove to be a perfectly playable instrument.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: dibble
Date: 2014-02-01 17:39
Have you guys seen the video of Morrie Backun reaming Ricardo Morales' clarinet after only a year or so of use? Backun says that wood tends to swell after time.
My question is, if wood does swell and change over time (grains of a bore come out, etc...) and in the clarinet world, fractions of a millimeter make a difference, wouldn't many clarinets' playing characeristics, in subtle or huge ways, change over time?
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2014-02-01 18:11
The most accurate indicator of "blow out" I've come across are a couple of serial numbers on a pair of Buffet R13s I owned in the '90s.
Just played a gig last night with a guy who plays constantly, though, and has for decades, on an L series BT, and I play only vintage horns (a '55 CT is my main horn, the a '52 CT and various others). We'll see what I think about blow out after a decade or so on this CT, which I've been playing for two years come June.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2014-02-01 18:36
There's a link somewhere, which I couldn't find, of Harold Wright discussing clarinet playing and blown-out clarinets. He claimed it was necessary to buy a new instrument every several years. Was he correct or not? I honestly don't know.
This is a subject that has come up frequently. I have seen the Morrie Backun video, and yes, it's quite possible that bore dimensions change slightly. I would be very hesitant to have a bore reamed unless the repair tech was a real expert--like Morrie Backun.
Perhaps the best answer/solution comes from keeping the bore clean and oiling.
Here's an interesting article from Larry Naylor:
http://www.naylors-woodwind-repair.com/lifeeverlasting.htm
Post Edited (2014-02-02 17:27)
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-02-01 14:45
@ dibble
> Have you guys seen the video of Morrie Backun reaming Ricardo Morales'
> clarinet after only a year or so of use? Backun says that wood tends to
> swell after time.
do you remember what wood it was made of? cocobolo? Indian Rosewood is the worse; my rosewood barrel had to be reamed 3-4 times in 1st 6mo to keep it in check. But this is rosewood which hasn't been sealed. Beautiful sound but absolute nightmare in terms of mfg/stability.
Aged quality Mpingo with smaller pores then other woods from rosewood family (cocobolo, indian/honduran rosewood, etc) does not swell nearly as much.
Alan S or other barrel makers on sneezy would be good to ask on sealing techniques. It my understanding that traditionally bores were burnished/polished with shellac. Now some mfg use polyurethane wood finish for bore. One can only guess what steps they go through to apply it.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-02-01 20:07
It's a bunch of nonsense promulgated by clarinet sellers to promote sales. The idea that the wood "swells" after a year or more is ridiculous. All wood swells and shrinks and it doesn't take a year for it to happen. Wooden clarinets are played outdoors in 100 degrees, in 10 degrees, in rain, snow, parades, steam heated venues, in practically every latitude on earth. Ever seen one that had to be discarded because it was destroyed by use?
Clarinets are made from the most stable woods available in the world. Becoming "blown out" or swelling and shrinking out of shape, are not problems. You all have a clarinet. Does it look like it's out of shape? Has the grain raised? Are the tone holes swollen, distorted, or closed? Has it become out of tune over time? Is the key mechanism askew? Has it swollen to the point where you can't slide the joints together or insert the mouthpiece?
And has your ancient clarinet become so decrepit that it cannot be refurbished by the excellent service people we are privileged to know? I know the answer to every one of these questions.
Here's how I handle this issue - I don't do business with any dealer who tries to get you to believe that bullsh*t. Chances are that if he lies about that he lies about other things.
Okay, where do I get off giving my admittedly strong opinion?
My family is in a business where wood has to perform under the worst conditions on the planet from the tropics to the arctic, and we have extensive experience with woods of all kinds, going back to 1928.
http://www.cherubiniyachts.com
bruno>
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-02-01 15:24
Barry - the clarinet is indeed not a horn by any reasonable musical definition or classification (don't be suprised if someone takes issue with that.) I was just looking for a synonym for clarinet, and "horn's" a common one among players that, at least from my experience, has no derogatory connotation: which was my intention. I will try to shy away from use of this term, or at least use it in quotes going forward.
For the record: I love the clarinet. If I may be allowed generalizations on a bboard in which we can't even agree on which manufacturer's clarinet strap to use, if you use a strap, (and by the way, our disagreements are not necessary a bad thing) then 2 such generalizations might be that 1) we all enjoy the clarinet (or at least want to improve our play), and that 2) we all put the tapered part of the reed on the mouthpiece, closer to the sky (than ground.)
(Que the guy who once went to a clarinet concert based on music written for backwards or upside down reed (or both), or that played upside down, (with such a misaligned reed no less.)
========
clarinetguy: I too remember the Harold Wright comments and was thinking about this as I started this thread.
I think this link http://www.wgbh.org/programs/Backstage-With-Brian-Bell-268/episodes/Former-BSO-Clarinetist-Harold-Wright-4896 is a conversation with the late Mr. Wright that includes such discussion, without Mr. Wright defining what it means for the instrument to be blown out.
========
With that said, your stories about blown out clarinets (and I love how many of you put quotes around those words) are interesting and appreciated. But to my original point...
What do you think constitutes a blown out clarinet, assuming you believe such a state of disrepair, based mostly upon clarinet use exists, consists of?
Is it that point where the very competant tech acknowledges he can't do anything more for your clarinet, recognizing that problems (resistance, intonation, etc.) still exist, even after his/her extensive overhaul, without taking risks with the instrument that might permanently cripple it?
Is it that point where the tech says the work on it is going to cost 75% of the costs of a new model of similar make, and it really isn't blown out per say but worn out?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-02-01 21:20
clarinetguy wrote:
> There's a link somewhere, which I couldn't find, of Harold
> Wright discussing clarinet playing and blown-out clarinets. He
> claimed it was necessary to buy a new instrument every several
> years. Was he correct or not? I honestly don't know.
>
I often wonder if "blowout" was even talked about before the 1920s or '30s or maybe even later. I grew up as a student in the '60s hearing about it when players like Wright , Marcellus, Lurie and Gigliotti were in their primes. That generation of American players (I'd be curious about the acceptance of "blowout" in Europe) seemed to subscribe to the "blowout" litany as though it were taken from holy scripture. Maybe it had to do with the ease of getting new clarinets and the low price, especially compared to other woodwinds or strings. Everything that people cite as possible reasons for blowout are things that could be fixed by an expert repair tech, but at a cost. Players whose careers demanded consistency - a demand made even greater by the development of commercial recording - may have been choosing replacement over extensive restorative work because replacement was cheaper and easier.
That's only a guess. If "blowout" was current in 19th century Europe, then a different explanation is needed.
Karl
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-02-01 16:37
Factors which can make a Clarinet feel "blown out" are if the upper joint is not dried properly at the tenon, it can rot. That changes the dimensions.
Some "vintage" buffets have keywork that is so bloody soft that you can't possibly keep them in regulation.
There's a centeredness of tone that just isn't there on a "blown out" Clarinet.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-02-01 21:49
ThatPerfectReed. That comment that I put at the bottom of my response was not actually aimed at your comments. I have decided to put "The Clarinet is not a horn" as my 'signature' like several others on this thread have their own signatures.
As far as this belief in Clarinets been 'blown out' , this is also apparently a belief amongst professional Oboists as well. Imagine paying $US 6000 to $US8000 or more for an Oboe and then considering that it is 'blown out' after several years !
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-02-01 16:51
Harold Wright stated, in interviews and if memory serves me well in a private conversation with Tom (Ridenour) that after 6-8 years clarinets would simply loose their juice. Tom could elaborate more specifically on what the player meant but as I understood it the bore dimensions would warp/change to the point where it lacked adequate resistance and intonation was being affected to one degree or another, often significantly from what ive been told.
As someone stated earlier, when it comes to clarinets fractions of millimeters can make a large difference in intonation and resistance. Clarinets regularly crack, it's seldom that one will look at this board and not find at least one or two posts with someone asking "what should I do about a crack that looks like and does.......". With that in mind it would seem quite reasonable to think that wood clarinets could warp to the point where they are no longer optimal, effective, acceptable....you could pick quite a few different ways to say it, in regards to their performance qualities. Negative effects to a clarinets performance qualities don't require grotesque or even noticeable changes in the the clarinets dimensions. Change the central cylinder of a clarinet by one tenth of a millimeter and the tuning will be affected greatly.
Can you still play a clarinet thats had its dimensions warped and been blown out? Of course. But the clarinet being "functional" is not the standard that most clarinet players have and I would guess that goes double for most of the players posting on this board.
This is based on my experience talking with Tom about the subject and hearing quite a few stories from clarinetists on this exact subject.
Ted Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-02-01 21:53
a lot of "blowed-outness" is attributed to look and feel. Keywork inevitably will wear and has to be buffed and brought back into crisp yet silky action. Wood has to be oiled and polished, corks must be replaced - yes, a clarinet will grow old and "wear out", inevitably, but I don't think that process cannot be reversed.
I don't believe for a second that the body per se can be "blown out".
Whether or not a "complete reconditioning" of an instrument is economically sensible is a different question altogether - sometimes a new instrument might indeed be cheaper.
--
Ben
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-02-01 17:17
I acknowledge you Barry and the context with with "a clarinet is not a horn" is best associated with you as a "tag phrase" if you will, having nothing to do with this thread. Mea culpa. ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-02-01 22:29
......So "blown out" may be a bit of a catch all phrase that sometimes does have to do with repetitive use injury to the clarinet, in ways that aren't easily fixed, particularly related to negative changes to internal barrel dimensions and those factors that cause its misalignment.....
but sometimes has the same meaning as when the insurance company choses to declare your car a total loss because its book value is less than 75% of the estimated cost of its repair after an accident, even if for more money than the cost of replacement, the clarinet could be brought back to life, for a period of unknown length.
I'm getting the impression that "blown out" is a term with legitimate origins, but that otherwise may be over used (no pun intended) and interchanged by players with the, albeit it more pedantic, "worn out" -- with the later term having more maybe to do with keys, springs, cracked tone holes, etc.
Perhaps the "it ain't ever goin to play well no more, no matter what" sums it up.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-02-01 23:12
Tom Ridenour wrote:
> Clarinets regularly crack, it's seldom that one
> will look at this board and not find at least one or two posts
> with someone asking "what should I do about a crack that looks
> like and does.......". With that in mind it would seem quite
> reasonable to think that wood clarinets could warp to the point
> where they are no longer optimal, effective, acceptable....
Of course this is true. But not all clarinets crack - I own several. It isn't necessary that every clarinet would warp in the way you describe. Certainly, if that happens, repairing or replacing it becomes a question of cost effectiveness. But the clarinetists who were most dogmatic about a clarinet's life expectancy as a high quality instrument, who said every clarinet is blown out after X years, weren't saying "some" clarinets.
Karl
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-02-01 18:45
I wasn't saying that every clarinet warps. I was simply stating that the clarinet is very sensitive dimensionally and that small changes can cause large problems. Using the term "every" or "always" is almost (no pun intended) always wrong.
I'll let Tom, if he chooses to contribute his opinion on the subject of how regularly clarinets get "blown out" due to changes in dimensions. I'm just reiterating the experiences I've heard from numerous clarinetists (typically ones that play a lot which is of course a factor in this discussion).
Ted Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-02-01 18:49
Regularly perhaps was not the best word but I don't think it's inaccurate. If something happens 5-10% of the time is it regular? This is somewhat subjective of course so...theirs room for interpretation I believe.
Ted Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2014-02-02 01:01
> Have you guys seen the video of Morrie Backun reaming
> Ricardo Morales' clarinet after only a year or so of use?
I've seen this. I've also seen the video of how Buffet reams out bores
in the first place. Maybe Backun is more careful, but certainly the
Buffet way looks rather approximate - no surprise then that many
people testify that different Buffets are rather inconsistent.
So in short, how do we know that Morales's clarinet was exactly in spec
in the first place?
Regarding whether blow-out could be real, I think Tom Ridenour's
suggestion of it being a relatively rare phenomenon makes sense.
Although one's intuition is that grenadilla is too hard to move, the
Buffet variation issue shows that almost imperceptible differences
in bore can have an effect. But it clearly isn't universal: plenty of
top pros keep the same instruments for decades. If Harold Wright
really blew his instruments out regularly, it's tempting to suggest that
this meant he wasn't looking after them very well.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-02-02 01:26
Many of the attributes mentioned in above posts tend to indicate instruments being poorly looked after or abused.
Yes modern wood quality, especially for the lower end "professional"clarinets is somewhat suspect at least as to maturity.
Most bore distortions I see are due to failure to dry the bores/sockets properly and also failure to oil the critical top section of the bore. This frequently shows as bores bulging inwards between the top tenon and speaker and is frequently accompanied by dry gray parched looking wood.
There is also the probabilty that professionals don't have the time to break in their instruments gently.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-02-01 20:32
If words are to have meaning we must accept that they mean what they say. One exception is idiomatic usage.
That said, the term "blown out" pretty much means what it says; that an instrument was blown into so much and so long that its sound is no longer centered, its tone is blah and its usefulness as a legitimate instrument no longer exists.
But until someone can point to an example, I do not believe this happens to an instrument made of grenadilla. There are a hundred bad things that can happen to clarinets, but blowing them "out" is not one of them, IMO. Guarneri and Stradivarius violins are by now in their sixth century of usefulness and are prized by present-day players beyond all others. Most of them have been through every possible adversity. Are they past their usefulness by the myriad changes in humidity that must certainly have occurred over 600 years and the uncountable thousands of hours of being played?
Cracks in clarinet wood are caused by internal stresses, whose origins are in the variability of natural materials and the manner in which the flitch and block were prepared, especially as grenadilla becomes more and more scarce and manufacturers are forced to use less than perfect material, but I don't believe that cracks have anything to do with the subject at hand. In fact, cracks in wood are probably more likely to occur in a dry environment than in a humid one.
Just between us, I would consider it a privilege to own a Fifties or Sixties top-of-the-line Selmer clarinet that has been played for thousands of hours, and I would never worry about its being "blown out".
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-02-01 21:26
Mr. Peacock,
Just to clarify, Tom did not make those statements.....it was Ted Ridenour. My statements were based purely on the experience of hearing, don't know how many.....lets just say quite a few, multiple clarinetists speak of their clarinets having been blown. They typically speak about a lack of resistance and a less centered tone than their clarinet previously had. I don't know how common it is and I'm not qualified to even speculate. I have literally no doubt it happens though; if I were to say otherwise I would essentially be saying that some of the worlds best clarinetists who are of course very discerning musicians just decided for no real reason to get rid of clarinets they had paid a high price for....which of course requires them to buy a new clarinet that they would most likely pay a even higher price for. Setting the financial aspect aside, with how attached most professionals are to whatever clarinet their playing at any given time, it's next to impossible to believe that they would do this based on no real reason.
The moisture that clarinets get exposed to via the players embochure and external factors like humidity or (in most cases this would fall into the poor care category) having the clarinet directly exposed to water via rain or some sort of accident makes the idea that the bore, particularly the central cylinder, can change enough over time that its performance qualities deteriorate quite plausible to me.......especially when I've heard from (well over 10.....it's not something I keep track of though) many musicians who make a living playing the clarinet that "blow out" does happen.
I'm not trying to get into a debate, for obvious reasons I'm not overly concerned with wether wood clarinets get blown out, however (and this is a question) is comparing a clarinet and a string instrument really a fair comparison? One has moisture blown into it every time it's played while the other does not suffer from this issue.
This is all just my opinion based on experiences of having been around and talked with clarinet players about this subject. I'm sure Tom could offer a more substantive explanation and while, as I do think some people on here may like to hear his thoughts on this issue as it seems to be an area of some disagreement, I will mention this thread to him and see if he has an opinion to offer I really doubt he's going to want to take the time to talk about it.
Respectfully,
Ted Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
Post Edited (2014-02-01 21:34)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-02 03:28
One of those responses mentioned hard rubber clarinets.
Interesting.
Even though the Greenlines start out life a little less resonant, I would think they would "hold up better" over time. The Greenline advantage is that once the detailing of bore and tone holes are finalized there is NO more shift in the material between the time they leave France and get into our hot little hands. Consequently the pitch aspects are better on these horns overall. I would certainly only entertain the idea of Greenline for utility horns just on this aspect alone.
As for "blown out," all the great symphonic players I know (both the old generation and new) place an active shelf life on their horns at about ten years as well.
And I really like the analogy to the Stradivarius. When was the last time you saw the inside of one of those sopping wet after a concert?
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2014-02-01 22:46
With no scientific evidence to prove what I am about to say.... I think it entirely possible that people who propose clarinets get blown out either have some profit motive behind what they say, or just believe it out of the power of suggestion and fear. I'd like to propose a new urban myth: Clarinets do not come into their own until they have been played for a number of years. The ideal clarinet needs to season with time and then be properly overhauled to correct for key wear in those mechanisms. Thus, the properly maintained clarinet actually increases in value and character. They are the true choice of discerning professionals.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2014-02-02 06:12
This should settle the matter:
New instruments settle in over time and require some tweaking (no, Miley, not twerking), during the first year.
As do humans, the process goes in a cephalo-caudal direction (first at the top, then progressing to the bottom).
That is why I sometimes need to re-tool the bore of a new barrel after a few months. (I let my patrons know this up front when then get the item) Once done, the "fix" usually lasts forever.
This is especially true with the more exotic woods.
It explains why you saw the video Morrie realigning the shape of the tone holes on the upper joint of Ricardo's relatively new instrument.
This is why many top technicians include the "come back and have me check it out in a year for free" statement after a pro set-up. Perfectly reasonable statement.
As for instruments as they mature:
When you pick out a new instrument it often has some resistance--just the right amount for you: "something to blow against"
Over time, this may increase or decrease. If it increases, there may be tone hole or bore aberrations that are correctable, especially in the first few years of the instruments life (see the first paragraph). Once corrected, the horn may remain fine forever.....or it may over time lose its characteristic
impedance no matter what tricks are employed (new bore liner, reaming tone holes, new pad resonators, swapping register tubes, etc). At that point the player and/or the tech consider it blown out....i.e. nothing you can do with satisfy you other than the selection of a new clarinet. Some individuals find that this circumstance occurs no matter what...often at 8-10 year intervals, esp. with heavy use. Other people find that once they find the right instrument, trying other ones is folly.
Grain of salt disclaimer: the above statements are from my observations based on sonority and resistance considerations, not intonation problems, which = a whole 'nother bag of worms.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: grok
Date: 2014-02-02 07:02
My blown out experience:
Buffet Bb R13: 2001 manufacture year, I think. Heavily used for 11 years straight. I loved this horn with my soul, it did everything I asked and could ever ask from it. Never overhauled, just touched up and repaired by my favorite tech periodically. But after about 6 or 7 years, it changed from being my soulmate to being a passionate but unpredictable lover. Eventually, the emotional rollercoasters (think plays beautifully to being a snotty brat in one day) took its toll on me and began to outweigh any good I could coax out of it. Intonation was spotty at best after 9 years. Then in the last year I had it checked out by several well respected as opportunity permitted and had to pull the cloth over my clarinet's face for good. Nobody could believed that I was still playing with that horn, given its measurements. I don't have the exact details anymore, but one tech measured the bore of my clarinet at several points and just frowned for a good five minutes. He said the bore diameter was just way too big to be a Buffet R13. Now, maybe the bore was always unusually large from the beginning, but I am gonna place my eggs in the "time and usage took its toll" basket.
The characteristics of this horn at the end of its life: Overall very sharp, but wildly inconsistent note to note. Very flexible tone, makes a great jazz horn. Super free blowing, but that's why I picked it, it just became more so as the years went on-hard to zero down on a tone colour for more than a few phrases.
If any of you are in Portland, OR, you're welcome to play my horn and see if it plays like what you might expect a blown out horn to play like.
Now, I have a new Bb that I adore, but it's like I stated above. My old clarinet was like a wild fling that you can't forget. My new one is more like the polite and respectful boyfriend that your parents wanted you to meet.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2014-02-02 17:23
I thought I'd share this, something I came across several years ago. I'm not sure if Judith LeClair, principal bassoonist in the NY Philharmonic since 1981, is still playing this bassoon, but as of 2001 she was playing a used bassoon, purchased while she was in high school. It's an old Heckel, manufactured in 1940!
http://edition.cnn.com/2001/CAREER/trends/03/01/nyphil.bassoon/index.html
Post Edited (2014-02-02 17:28)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2014-02-02 14:39
Old bassoons are highly prized. Some bass clarinets are passed down from famous players to students and used in orchestras. (I think Leon Lester's is still played).
Yet oboists have been known to change instruments often, even traipsing to France to get the pick of the litter from Loree. (REF: Bio of Tabateau)
SO: I will go out on a wooden limb here and formulate
(ta da)
*** Segal's "Almost law of inverse bore dimensional stability." *****
viz:
THE NARROWER THE BORE OF A WOOD INSTRUMENT SUCH AS A CLARINET OR OBOE, THE SOONER **SOME OWNERS** FIND A REASON TO REPLACE IT.
COROLLARY: THE WIDER THE BORE (BASS CLARINET) OF A** GOOD** WOODEN INSTRUMENT, INCLUDING MAPLE (BASSOON) ONES, THE MORE HIGHLY PRIZED IT IS OVER TIME.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2014-02-02 19:41)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-02 15:16
There are many oboists (and clarinettists) in the UK that play instruments they've had since college or even school - Leon Goossens played a 1907 Loree throughout his long career and I still see some orchestral clarinettists playing 1010s which haven't been made since the mid '80s. Some players will get a new oboe or clarinet every few years, but most tend to stick to what they know.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-02-02 20:38
Old clarinets, which at the least are still playable, if not wonderful instruments exist. Duly noted Chris.
But clarinets that have reached the end of their useful life, most old, some not so old--as a direct and proximate cause of amount of time played on them seem ample in numbers as well.
That these clarinets may have not been that great in the first place, and that's why they failed, and/or that their user may have caused them abuse, from a multitude of factors from care for the instrument, right down to the possible affects of, I don't know, having GERD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastroesophageal_reflux_disease affect the bore I'm fine to leave as a "question for the ages."
* disclaimer: I have utterly no scientific proof (although it may exist) that links untreated GERD with accelerated clarinet usage.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2014-02-03 00:08
Now, I think I understand! You buy a new Buffet R-13 and promptly have it overhauled to bring it up to its highest potential. You play it for about 10 years and it begins to lose its centerdness and sparkle so we announce that it has been "blown out". About 20 to 30 years later, it somehow matures into a "golden years R-13" and it is highly valued. Large bore instruments like basoons and bass clarinets never get blown out but at the same time never quite become as highly prized as those special 40 year old soprano clarinets.
I have an explanation for these descrepancies, and it should please both the worshippers of "golden years R-13's" and nostalgic folks alike. There is a reason that 1960's and 70's Buffets did get blown out but eventually recovered and blossomed. The spirit of those times is timeless and rejuvenating. Those flower power days proved good for both cosmic consciousness and clarinets. It just took us a little time to realize how beneficial those years really were.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-02-02 19:21
So Garth--your more of the school of thought suggesting "it's rebranding and marketing people?"
Did I read that correctly as your sentiments?
(1960's R13 lover and owner)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-02-02 19:23
Re the bassoon post of clarinetguy - it is widely accepted that there was a golden age for Heckel bassoons and this is approx around the mid 1930s.
Many pro players in the UK play on these prewar instruments and would never swop for a new one (good though they are).
Many bassoons are into their 3 generation of pro owner.
The oldest model I have worked on dates from about 1912 and was originally purchased by a member of the Vienna Philharmonic.
It was given a major overhaul at Heckels in the 1960s and remains a wonderful instrument.
I have a recording or Judith LeClair made in the 1990s and she sounds absolutely amazing - lovely reedy tinge that gives an almost French basson sound.
Brymer in his professional years only changed his clarinets once and basically the original ones were mechanically clapped out.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-02-03 00:51
What! You mean to say that those old bassoons and oboes are not BLOWN OUT??!! Wait a minute here! That goes against all the rules. We have proof positive that clarinets turn into a wet noodle after a couple of years. Where do you guys get off playing old instruments!?
B>
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2014-02-02 23:13
To the PerfectReed...
Through my sarcastic comments, I meant to convey that without empirical measurements, I believe that old clarinets that have been played and played can still function as well as anything fresh out of the factory. The conflicting ideas about this are almost proof that the difference between a good old instrument and a good new one are largely beyond the ability of the ear to hear.
We live in a profit oriented world, and as a result the glorification of old things that can not be currently manufactured and marketed today has to countered with myths such as the "blown out" myth. I believe the profit motive would naturally prohibit Buffet from saying, "our new r-13's are every bit as good as the old ones, with the possible exception of some of the premium grenadilla has already been farmed and so we are forced to use wood which may not be up to the old standard".
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: dibble
Date: 2014-02-03 05:09
Clarinet bores can become ovular over time. my Yamaha CS has become so.
After a clarinet is reamed it is absolutely round (I ream clarinets and oboes often at my part time job). It would be impossible to ream, with a perfectly round reamer, an ovular shape. You could ream a crooked hole or under-ream/over-ream though.
So, the fact that some examples of wood change over time is not debatable. It can be measured.
I guess what can be argued is whether or not they play the same (the ones that HAVE changed) after this change.
I am guessing that the clarinet players that play older horns have clarinets that have either changed and the change is good/not noticeable, or have clarinets that have changed very little/not at all. All pieces of wood are different.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2014-02-03 05:33
How much is a reaming for Bb clarinet?
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: dibble
Date: 2014-02-03 00:37
Oh, Garth, we do not work on other instruments. We are a small factory producing our own stuff.
Backun or Brannen maybe good for that. good luck!
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-02-03 07:35
@ Garth Libre
> How much is a reaming for Bb clarinet?
it is usually not worth it. The pad height adjustments, tonehole work such as adding material/undercutting far more effective way of fixing intonation issues then reaming. And you'd have to ream alot to have an impact.
I'd consider reaming barrel on old clarinet to match it to modern mouthpiece and fix 12th, but that about it. Just don't use original barrel; it is one way street, pick some cheap one to practice on.
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2014-02-03 20:29
"Have you guys seen the video of Morrie Backun reaming Ricardo Morales' clarinet after only a year or so of use? Backun says that wood tends to swell after time."
That doesn't make any sense to me. It must have shrunk for a reamer to be effective. If a cylinder "swelled" a hole in the middle would surely have got bigger.
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2014-02-03 21:51
During my years studying with Paul Schaller of the Detroit Symphony. He talked about "blowing out" his buffets R13s. In the context of a professional playing 40+ hours a week he spoke of the clarinet simply not responding as well as a new one. So no specifics but a concept he was aware of in his own playing.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-03 21:58
Dibbs, when wood swells due to humidity, the cells expand so not only does it increase in outer diameter, but the bore will also decrease in diameter due to the cells expanding, hence having to ream it out. The opposite happens when wood dries out.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: gkern
Date: 2014-02-03 18:11
Chris, when the wood subsequently dries out, would not the bore then be larger in diameter than before it swelled?
Gary K
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2014-02-04 03:14
Why would the diameter be larger? It swells with moisture and contracts when it dries. It seems it would return to its original diameter.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-02-03 23:18
Changes in ambient humidity can make African blackwood move by small amounts and this is reversible and usually occurs over fairly extended periods of weeks or months in climates with fairly extreme changes.
The form of distortion that occurs mostly by poor handling e.g. failing to swab after playing and especially by tenon and socket end grain being kept wet for long periods e.g by failure to separate joints after playing, failure to oil the wood etc is likely to be permanent and typically results in the bore swelling inwards near the top of top joint (a pretty critical area for intonation purposes).
It is this latter case where correct re-reaming is appropriate but not fot the former.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2014-02-04 04:45
Anyone who leaves the clarinet assembled wet for long periods of time, leaves the tenons wet when put away, and fails to swab the instrument or oil it periodically (assuming you ascribe to the oiling is good theory), should not be permitted to own a good wooden clarinet. For these people hard rubber fits the bill.
I try to take good care of all my things, but owing a fine wooden clarinet I consider to be a special holly responsibility and not suited for the careless and forgetful. These grenadilla trees are a gift from nature, and not to be taken lightly.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2014-02-04 05:35
It is NOT so much whether the dimension is narrower or wider: It is whether it is DISTORTED.
This is due to the distribution of the wood fibrils in the cut billet.
If you measure the opening along one diameter (or with a plunger type gauge) you will get one reading; but if you measure the diameter perpendicular to the first, you might get a different reading. The bore has acquired an elliptical shape. A tone hole that becomes narrower in the sagittal direction will cause sharpness, while the converse is true for the transverse direction.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-02-04 12:59
Alseg wrote:
> A tone hole that becomes narrower in the sagittal direction
> will cause sharpness, while the converse is true for the
> transverse direction.
>
IMHO the overall hole area size, not the shape would have more impact on intonation
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-02-04 20:28
I think he is suggesting that if a tone hole becomes ovoid with the long axis across the long axis of the clarinet the upper side of the tone hole will be farther from the reed and will make the note flat. And vice versa.
b>
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2014-02-05 01:09
All this discussion of the impact of small changes in bore dimension reminded me of something I've wondered about in this context previously - condensation. As waterlogged tone holes frequently remind us, the bore of a clarinet stores up a lot of water when you are blowing continuously. So: why doesn't all this water change the response of the instrument? A glance up the bore of a wet clarinet will reveal a substantial surface layer of fluid, and not uniform either: there are rivulets and local concentrations of droplets. The collective volume occupied by all this must be far in excess of any of the subtle changes in shape of the wood that this thread has been concerned with. But I can't say I've ever noticed a change in response as water builds up. So there are two possibilities:
(1) Change in bore shape from water doesn't change acoustic response, but a smaller change of volume from wood warping does. This seems implausible: water isn't as dense as grenadilla, but it's a lot denser than air, and should reflect sound waves pretty effectively.
or
(2) Pretty substantial changes in bore shape (including warping) don't actually alter response all that much. If this is true, then a well-played clarinet could cease to feel nice just because some of the pads are seating differently. Similarly, blowing in of an instrument might largely reflect just the pads bedding down and eventually sealing really well. This is certainly consistent with how things go when an instrument is repadded and can take a while to settle down.
Until I can understand why there is no effect from condensation, I'm provisionally inclined to go with the second view.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-02-05 02:36
I raised a similar question some time ago and the general feedback was that no-one had found any problems from the moisture pitch/response wise.
My personal speculation is that it could be due to fact that moisture is fluid and moves in some way with the sound waves whereas the wood bore is a fixed surface. This "movement" seemingly prevents the moisture from changing the wave response.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-02-05 15:40
@Bruno
> I think he is suggesting that if a tone hole becomes ovoid with the long axis
> across the long axis of the clarinet the upper side of the tone hole will be
> farther from the reed and will make the note flat. And vice verse.
I have no doubt this is also the case; however IMHO it does not have as much impact as overall hole size. You have to undercut alot to rise flat tone by +8, and hole, even if it's drilled in wet 2x4, won't get warped as much. Unless it is an Indian Rosewood 2x4.
When the area of tonehole changes, it forces air to vent via adjoined open hole, which effectively changes the length of air column and rises/lowers pitch.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2014-02-05 20:29
OK, I've read the whole thread, and here's my conclusion: if you think your horn is blown out, it is. If you think it's not, it's not. Lacking the scientific wherewithal (above all, the scientific turn of mind) to investigate further on my own, I'm happy to take the observations of Messrs. Segal and Naylor, among many others, as true, and rest secure in the knowledge that no horn I own is in danger of getting "blown out," at least not by ME, not in this lifetime anyway. (One can always practice more than one ends up doing.)
Also, I'll just note that my R13 has a pronounced burl in the upper joint, right below the side Eb/Bb keyhole. That burl (or 'knot' if you prefer) wouldn't possibly expand in changing atmospheric conditions at an identical rate all up and down its length. (Er, at least, I don't think it would.) All of which is by way of saying, even a wood like grenadilla isn't uniformly dense, and the grain isn't uniformly straight. Why it would take ten years of continual playing for that to become an issue, I have no idea; but until the day science subjects a clarinet to simulated wear conditions over a 20-year period (Consumer Reports, perhaps?) I'm thinking the notion of a "blown out" instrument is plausible. (Actually, that's kind of funny--Consumer Reports bases their testing validity on the idea that one Toyota Avalon is the same as any other Toyota Avalon; trying to find identical R13s would drive their testers nuts).
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2014-02-05 20:57
Cyclopathic, Here is empirical proof of the tone hole shape distortion statement that I made:
If only the size of the tone hole mattered (As per Cyclopathic), then the age-old "fix" of adding a small strip of material to the top crescent of the adjacent tone hole of a note to flatten the pitch of a the note would work even if the material was applied laterally or at the bottom of the tone hole...which is not the case. It only works when the material is applied to the upper portion of the hole.
Bruno, you get it.
Subjectivity is reality when it comes to the arts, especially when physics fails. Plus GAS (the acquisition syndrome, not the physical state) produces more gravitons than rationality.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-02-06 20:49
Alseg wrote:
> Cyclopathic, Here is empirical proof of the tone hole shape
> distortion statement that I made:
> If only the size of the tone hole mattered (As per
> Cyclopathic), then the age-old "fix" of adding a small strip of
> material to the top crescent of the adjacent tone hole of a
> note to flatten the pitch of a the note would work even if the
> material was applied laterally or at the bottom of the tone
> hole...which is not the case. It only works when the material
> is applied to the upper portion of the hole.
>
Alan, with do respect while it is more effective to add material at the top (you increasing length of the pipe and reducing venting), adding material all around hole also works on lowering pitch. It works the same way as lowering pad, by reducing venting and forcing more air via lower toneholes. Obviously you'd need to add more material at the bottom to make it work and impact depends on size of the tonehole and how well it is vented.
Interesting that reducing venting via adding at the bottom (or rather all around) has more impact on fundamental, so it could be a solution for open hole if you need to move 1st mode tone down w/o moving 2nd mode down much.
Either way it is hard to imagine tonehole warped as much from well seasoned grenadilla drying out. If there are any tonehole "ovalization" issues they are likely from hand drilling not drying.
Post Edited (2014-02-07 01:55)
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2014-02-07 01:39
If there is pitch correction to be accomplished by adding material to the top of the tone hole, am I to believe we are really correcting intonation problems that were there from the start? How then, do we correct intonation problems that were created by bore warping other than by reaming? Is that corrected by proper oiling and conditioning?
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-02-07 23:53
Garth Libre wrote:
> If there is pitch correction to be accomplished by adding
> material to the top of the tone hole, am I to believe we are
> really correcting intonation problems that were there from the
> start? How then, do we correct intonation problems that were
> created by bore warping other than by reaming? Is that
> corrected by proper oiling and conditioning?
>
reaming should be done when it's needed, but it is not the most effective way to compensate for intonation issues. If top of the top joint or barrel warped, you are talking about removing .1-.2mm (if it is more clarinet is POS not worth saving) and that would have only a few (<5%) percent impact on intonation. With adding material you can lower by 20-40%.
Oiling dried out clarinet swells wood and helps to restore bore to original dimensions.
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