 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-01-21 19:10
I've seen some discussion here on whether the material in hard rubber mouthpieces varies, and it occurs to me that since I've been playing a Woodwind Co. Rob't Marcellus MP I don't see the little worn-away spot on the top of the beak (I have one very sharp incisor. I'm afraid to ask my dentist to modify it for fear of exposing pulp.) that I see on my Vandorens and on a Beechler that I have played in the past.
So I would say yes, there IS a difference in the types of hard rubber used in mouthpieces. There isn't a bit of evidence on the Rob't Marcellus that I play it daily. The hard rubber in that MP is almost glass-like. Thank heaven I have two of them. I'm apparently set for life.
P.S. The Woodwind Co was an Elkhart affiliate of the LeBlanc Co. Defunct now, but they made really excellent, free-blowing mouthpieces. The one I play apparently was designed by Marcellus, and brings out the most ringing, resonant, round tone in my R-13. It's so good that I think about it when I'm not playing. Instead of counting sheep at night I just think about that sound. (Off topic. Sorry.)
Bruno.
Post Edited (2014-01-22 00:38)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-01-21 23:49
Bakelite and Hard Rubber are two entirely different materials. Bakelite would surely show less wear than hard rubber regardless of formulations.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-01-22 00:40
Yeah, I should have typed 'hard rubber', or 'Ebonite' (trade name.
Fixed my other post.
B.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-01-22 03:39
Bruno: There have been many different formulations of hard rubber since the day it was first manufactured continuing up to the present time. It is one of the wonders of the modern world and continues to be. There are probably various reasons why it persists as a material for mouthpieces and one of them is the relative ease of refacing compared with harder materials such as "Bakelite" and "gummier" materials such as ABS.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-01-22 04:22
If your teeth are just as sharp as they were on previous mouthpieces, and previous mouthpieces were damaged, but this one is not, after the same amount of use, without change in tooth pressure on the mouthpiece, then it is likely that your mouthpiece is wearing your teeth rather than vice versa.
If anyone is concerned about tooth marks on a mouthpiece, why not use a protective patch - the quality sort - probably some type of polyurethane with dcent adhesive. Then you have no wear on teeth nor mouthpiece.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-01-22 03:27
Gordon said; "If anyone is concerned about tooth marks on a mouthpiece, why not use a protective patch - the quality sort - probably some type of polyurethane with dcent adhesive. Then you have no wear on teeth nor mouthpiece."
Nah, no patch for me! I like the dimensions of my mouthpiece and how it feels when I play. And if my incisor wears a bit that's okay but I doubt that it will - tooth enamel is tough stuff. My enamel and that mouthpiece material may have come to a stand off.
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Author: derek_b
Date: 2014-01-22 05:33
Re protective patches: I think it is VERY optimistic to assume that constant contact between ones teeth and a hard rubber mouthpiece is not damaging teeth. Hard rubber is, well... rather hard. The contact area is very small, thus pressure per unit of surface is considerable. I am not worried about my mouthpiece, it is easy to replace, but I would prefer my teeth to last a bit longer
I do not use commercial patches, but a quality electric insulating tape (common Nitto brand is excellent and below $1 per roll), and I cut shapes patterned from photos of patches easily found on the net. One can have only a single layer (very thin) or as many layers as desired (I usually have 4). Any "dimension change" of the mouthpiece is insignificant, as this is external surface, and definitely does not change sound. Being a bit less slippery that unprotected hard rubber surface to me it actually feels a bit better, and, because I can bite it more, it helps to hold everything a bit more securely. And of course one can use any color as well!
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Author: CarolinaClarinet
Date: 2014-01-22 19:59
Explanation of plastic, hard rubber, etc is in a white paper at
http://www.carolinaclarinet.org/mpc_matl.pdf
This paper, Clarinet Mouthpiece Materials (B Smith, 2009) reviews information from many sources about mouthpiece materials and effects on sound, playability and other items of importance to clarinet players.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-01-23 19:08
Read your article "Carolina" and give it 2 thumbs up.........
Bob Draznik
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-01-23 21:33
derek said: "Re protective patches: I think it is VERY optimistic to assume that constant contact between ones teeth and a hard rubber mouthpiece is not damaging teeth. Hard rubber is, well... rather hard. The contact area is very small, thus pressure per unit of surface is considerable. I am not worried about my mouthpiece, it is easy to replace, but I would prefer my teeth to last a bit longer
No one in his right mind is going to grind so hard against the mouthpiece (against ANYTHING) that the enamel on his front teeth will wear away. If he does such a foolish thing he's not even playing his clarinet properly.
Of course there will always be idiots, and there is no such thing as always or never when it comes to doing something stupid.
I've been mouthing woodwind mouthpieces for over fifty years and there's no wear yet.
So I think my decision to forego a pad is reasonable. ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
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Author: derek_b
Date: 2014-01-23 21:50
Well, it is not really how hard you grind, it is how often you play, how strong is your bite, how often you adjust, individual jaw and bite characteristics, etc., etc. It all adds. And of course there are many people (myself including) who still learn to play clarinet properly; often there are not idiots, just beginners...
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2014-01-27 00:59
(Disclaimer I sell Chedeville brand mouthhpieces and barrels CNC machined from rod rubber)
Sorry, I posted this on another string at first by mistake.
The reference by Derek_B about mouthpiece materials is good. Of significant importance in hard rubber mouthpieces is that the formulations of starting materials and vulcanization conditions are diifferent in making rod rubber stock and the materials used to make molded mouthpieces yielding rubber of different properties. The tempering conditions and cooling thickness differences can also distort areas in molded rubber mouthpieces. All mouthpieces today, except a very few, are molded hard rubber.
It is difficult to reproduce hard rod rubber stock as used in early mouthpieces because: 1. The latex starting material is now different, 2. Machinery and vulcanization conditions were different than now and not well documented or quality controlled, 3. Vulcanized rubber begins to decay (sulfur bonds between latex monomer strands are weak energy bonds that break rather easily and over time more breakage continues) and what we see now in early rubber is different than the starting material and difficult to reconstruct these bonding patterns to mimic the material as it exists today by a fresh vulcanization.
It is worthwhile to note that the latex rubber starting material used to make vulcanized rubber today is different than used in the classic 1920's and 30's mouthpieces because a lot of impurities have been removed because of the demand for latex to make rubber gloves. The sources, geographical locations (leading to a different terroir), and tree types are also different. The impurities in latex alter the eventual crosslinking patterns in the final material and its physical properties as well as acoustical properties. These impurities include plant detritus, foreign proteins, and all manner of mineral and dirt particles. Including some of these impurities in a fresh vulcanization mixture will more closely match crosslinking patterns seen in old mouthpieces but a truly trial and error endeavor.
It should also be noted that rubber manufacturing quality contol in the modern era also consists instrumentation that can "fingerprint" of the cross linking patterns in vulcanized rubber (this is useful for tire manufacturers) and acoustical properties are analyzed by full spectrum frequency analysis using FFT (Fast Fourier Transform) as well as other proprietary methods. These methods can be used to evaluate the properties of each batch of custom rubber.
L. Omar Henderson
www.ChedevilleMP.com
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-01-27 07:33
That said, Mr. Henderson, would you care to comment on the stability and quality of hard rubber clarinets?
bruno>
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2014-01-27 18:53
(Disclaimer-I sell Chedeville brand rod rubber CNC machined mouthpieces and barrels)
Stability of hard rubber clarinets is hard to access unless they are kept in optimal condition without exposure to too much sunlight. I myself have an olive green colored hard rubber clarinet in "A" that has had a hard life and in addition to the green colored sulfur compounds (which are actually a protection factor since they are very stable chemically - and hard to remove) there are some surface blotchy rubber decay areas but the bore is still black and shiny and plays well.
A lot depends on the original crosslinking pattern of the rubber and a sinister marker pattern algorithm is yet to be identified which portends early decay. I guess that all we can say is that are some examples of 90+ year old hard rubber mouthpieces which still have amazing acoustical qualities and seemingly good structure. I do not know the age of any truly old hard rubber clarinets except personal experience with some 30-40 year old models. I guess that there are still functional early examples of products made from hard rubber in museums that are over 100 years old, but also there were the tires on my mother's car in the heat and sunshine that rotted without the car being driven for several years.
I am somewhat convinced that only design and manufacturing precision make a good clarinet whether it be hard rubber or wood. Currently there are some very good clarinets being sold that have hard rubber bodies.
L. Omar Henderson
www.chedevillemp.com
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