 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: saxhorn
Date: 2011-03-02 02:28
I was 'nt ready for this...today in my shop i had a
what appeared to be a china made clarinet{ the cases are always a dead giveaway} the customer agreed :china, sure"
When i opened the case there sat a Buffet-Crampon clarinet
with the authentic label..underneath the mark read"made in france"
i was dumbfounded. What in the world is happening!
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2011-03-02 07:52
Was is used?
Could be just a Chinese case?
All my clarinets of every quality are in very cheap cases.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-03-02 08:26
As the genuine B12s aren't made by Buffet, they never had the 'Made in France' bit under the logo which is only seen on French instruments - so that's a giveaway for a start.
There were loads of these on eBay a while back and also Yamahas which were identical instruments but with the Buffet or Yamaha logo stencilled on. Both were supplied with an extra barrel (B12s and YCL-250s only have the one) and neither resembled the instrument they were meant to be.
I alerted eBay about both the fake Buffets and Yamahas at the time, but haven't since checked if there are any still being sold on there.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-03-02 08:32
It's possible just the case was Chinese and it's not the original. A combination of the material, model, what is written, etc. can usually indicate pretty easily whether it's a fake. I guess those making the fakes can eventually improve and make it harder to tell visually. Though some of Buffet's plastic models were (or maybe still are) made in China for a while, so a Chinese Buffet isn't necessarily a fake, but of course these won't have 'Made in France' on them.
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-03-02 09:10
If the topic is fakes then this is not off topic but it could be. Apologies in advance.
About four years ago a friend, a luthier, was showing me a guitar in his shop. It was a Gibson Les Paul. He put it next to another and asked me to pick the difference. I had time to spare and really looked hard at all the things I thought that would indicate a fake. I couldn't pick a thing. I played them both and couldn't tell the difference. He played them both (a much better test) and neither of us could tell the difference. Eventually he showed me a very small joint in the wood of the fake. No joint in the original. The Chinese fake was a fraction of the cost and played like a brand new expensive Gibson original. If we need a moral then I suppose it is 'trust your ears' but I can't help but think that the fake is still a fake.
To the buyer, I suppose, everything matters but if the wood is good, the tolerances are good, the materials are good and the keywork is good, it might not be a Buffet but it can still be a good clarinet.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-03-02 11:17
Trust me - these aren't good clarinets!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2011-03-02 11:33
Some instruments are easier to fake than others. Guitars, especially electric, or drums are very easy to fake- and the result can be a fairly good instrument.
However, the amount of sensitivity and tooling that goes into an oboe or saxophone or clarinet is much more difficult than that of an electric guitar.
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-03-02 12:59
I apologise for the clumsiness of my earlier post. I accept the fact, in fact, I totally agree with the fact that an electric guitar is easier to make than a clarinet. But in putting the example forward of a copy that was an excellent instrument, I wanted to question the idea of a fake a little bit. If that didn't come over then I'm sorry.
But I'm still troubled by the issue at hand. I'll discount the fact that the Chinese have been making reed instruments for much longer than those French newbies. I don't think that that is relevant. I'm sure that someone will point out that we are talking about clarinets and not any old reed instrument. So if I focus on the clarinet, I can say without irony that I have come across so much useful information on this site that I would never hesitate to recommend it to anyone who took an interest in the instrument. But one of the consistent bits of advice that gets offered here is that one shouldn't buy a clarinet without trying it. One of the regular concerns is the need to have even brand new clarinets passed by qualified technicians. Both those things suggest that one shouldn't trust brand or reputation. And if a brand or reputation cannot be trusted then what is the status of the fake. Is there any value in thinking in fakes and trusted brands when the trusted brands are not trusted? Isn't one consistent message that comes over on this forum (and I'm not suggesting that the forum has a single or uniform message) that each clarinet should be taken on its own merits?
I know that the people who make the fake Buffets don't think like this but their primary concern is making money not music. From the perspective of making music, do fakes exist or are there just good and bad instruments, or maybe even just instruments that are played well or played badly? Sorry to get philosophical on you but I should be stripping a wall of wallpaper right now and that always sends me this way.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-03-02 15:16
Tony M wrote:
> And if a brand or reputation cannot be trusted then what is the status of
> the fake. Is there any value in thinking in fakes and trusted brands when
> the trusted brands are not trusted? Isn't one consistent message that
> comes over on this forum (and I'm not suggesting that the forum has a
> single or uniform message) that each clarinet should be taken on its own
> merits?
That is a very interesting angle to look at this problem, indeed.
Hmm, maybe the "trusted brand" thing increases the possibility that you actually pick a decent instrument. It's not a guarantee, just as eating in a 4-star restaurant doesn't guarantee you don't get the runs later.
Besides, many potential buyers have no practical means of physically trying out before buying (too far from civilization, no playing skills, no time, ...) so they rely solely on brand. Which is the reason the brand was invented at all, to give the buyer a clue if physical testing is not possible.
(Meanwhile we schoolyard bullying over brands and logos, but that's a different problem)
--
Ben
Post Edited (2011-03-02 15:17)
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Author: saxhorn
Date: 2011-03-03 03:12
This "chinese" Buffet that i had in my shop was of poor quality.
I tried to play it and it was awful..could'nt get it up to pitch with the barrel supplied{that was also inscribed buffet..made in france} as were all the sections and the bell.
I see in my shop almost every chinese brand clarinet at one time or another..
i had a list going for a while but stopped after roughly 50 different brand names. This Buffet belonged to that class.
Anyway, my concern with this is with the unsuspecting parents that are looking for a quality type clarinet on e-bay. We used to tell them , look for,Selmer, vito, LeBlanc..Buffet? you get the idea.
Not sure we can recommend any company brand at this time.
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Author: jnswickard
Date: 2011-03-03 03:45
I don't mean to overdo, but one more time IT IS NOT A REAL BUFFET! These fakes still sell for $159 to $199 on ebay (look up Buffet B12 on ebay). This is the problem with fake products, not only do they rob from the real manufacturers they also steal from consumers.
Jack
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-03-03 13:34
Does anyone have contact information for reporting fake products to the Feds? In the USA, people who collect vintage wristwatches apparently have had some success in getting the importers of fake Rolexes arrested. Customers may see these fake Buffet clarinets for sale before the Buffet company can find out about them. If we can do our best to report these scams fast enough to nab the importers before they change their names and other identifying information, we might be able to make the fakery expensive enough to discourage it.
And is there a way to report these scams to the Chinese government, too? The importers of honestly-branded Chinese-made instruments probably want the fakes off the market as much as we do. The fakes give Chinese products a bad reputation at a time when the overall quality of Chinese manufacturing is improving.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: infundibulum
Date: 2011-03-03 14:37
Would you buy a "pig in a poke"?
If you want an instrument, you go to the dealer and
play several of his/her instruments. You choose what
fits your playing style.
Or, if you are a novice, you have a trusted teacher
select one for you. They will usually give you a discount.
But, they will also let you try the instrument, first.
When were you born? yesterday?
RRH
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-03-03 15:14
Attachment: fakebuffetb12s.jpg (139k)
The fakes listed on eBay will have in the title 'with nice case' or 'with serial number' or some other guff.
Attached are four photos - three fake B12s and one genuine one.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2011-03-03 16:41
I buy instruments from that auction site, but I guess my approach gives me some protection from fakes and might be useful for "unsuspecting parents" looking for a good instrument for junior, too. My hobby is restoring and playing older Selmers (series 10 and before). If you are patient, you can find a 9 or 10 for $300 to $400. A good tech (I do my own) can put it back to a condition as good or better than new and you will still be under the cost of a new instrument of similar quality. For the younger player, this will give them a fine instrument that will serve them as long as they need it, unless they become a performance major. On the plus side, I doubt there are many people going to the trouble of faking an older instrument (from a time when there were many fewer fakes), so your chances of getting the real thing are greatly improved. On the negative side, you might have to put up with being the one using an instrument that is not a new copy of the latest popular model.
In our community band we have a few Buffets, but mostly older Selmers. Awhile back, I gave one of the Buffet players a CT to try out with his own mouthpiece. He was amazed that the biggest difference he noticed was the slightly different key shapes. He is an outstanding player and his tone was nearly identical on the CT.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-03-03 19:23
Re: BartHx
Interestingly I just noticed on ebay yesterday a counterfeit vintage Selmer. The N-series serial number looked like it could have been cut yeasterday (probably because it was) and the Selmer logo was clearly wrong in just about every way. It should have been obvious to anyone who had seen a vintage Selmer before but that didn't stop several people from bidding on it before I notified the seller that it was a fake.
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-03-03 20:14
I don't live in America but I suspect you have the problems that the rest of us have: access to retail instruments. I live a city of approximately two million people and if I wanted to buy a new instrument today then I would have a very poor selection to go and try if I had the money for one of those instruments in my pocket.
Teachers don't come cheap and people very often buy instruments for children before they begin their music instruction so they won't have the benefit of that wisdom.
The economy of instrument production, distribution and retail has changed radically over the past twenty years and parents buying instruments for kids have not always benefitted. Selection from multiple instruments under the guidance of a wise head is not an option for a great percentage of first instrument buyers.
And, finally, I would like to have been born yesterday because by the time I needed a clarinet the Chinese models would be affordable and up to the French standard in quality.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2011-03-04 02:15
Re: SteveG_CT
Was that a Series 9? I saw a "Series 9" the other day where the logos were not easy to see, but the ones on the barrel and bell were clearly wrong. I sent the seller a note and asked what was going on. He said that he had "accidentally" photographed the wrong barrel and bell with the instrument, but would include the "correct ones" when he shipped it (no, I did not bid). I also saw a CT with a 10g barrel. My point is that you are less likely to find a fake in an older instrument, not that they don't exist. No matter what you are thinking about buying, you need to look closely and ask questions. I just picked the nines as an example since they seem to be getting less play right now. If you look at closed listings, you can see what the ones that actually sold went for (nines are currently around three to four hundred). CTs and tens are currently going from a few to several hundred higher than nines. Good catch on spotting those wrong logos.
I love being the odd one out who pulls out a CT or some such that looks brand new and sounds great. I am currently working on a model 55 with sterling keys. It should be beautiful when finished.
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Author: TianL
Date: 2011-03-04 06:22
i didn't read all the replies here but all the fake buffet ones on ebay have the same serial number
also, some chinese companies are starting to make decent clarinets now. Actually probably since a decade ago there were already some good ones. HOWEVER, these good ones would not try to fake as buffet or yamaha, they are under their own brand.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-03-04 13:15
Re: TianL
I don't doubt that some Chinese companies make very good instruments. It wouldn't surprise me however if the good ones don't get exported. I'm not sure if the musical instrument industry is comparable but I know that in the machinery industry there are some Chinese-made machines that are every bit as good as machines made anywhere else in the world but they aren't exported because they aren't cost competitive after factoring in shipping costs and because there is a stigma against Chinese-manufactured goods due to the huge amount of low-quality products flooding the marketplace.
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Author: Francois Kloc
Date: 2011-03-10 20:34
All,
We have been made aware of these instruments. They are noty made by us. As someone said we are making the B10 and B12 in Germany and it will be on the insutrment under the serial number. Plus the Buffet Crampon logo with made in France underneath is what tells you it is not a real instrument. We do not make plastic clarinets in France.
Thank you,
Francois Kloc
President & CEO
Buffet Crampon USA, Inc.
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Author: ClarinetTube
Date: 2011-03-11 03:23
The Chinese have become professionals in stealing products and trying to replicate stuff-as you know. I think this is an outrage and you will never be able to replicate the quality of buffet.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-03-11 08:02
... or Schreiber as Buffet don't make B12s.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ian White
Date: 2011-03-11 11:37
Thanks for clarifying where the B10 B12 are made Francois - there have been lots of conflicting theories on this floating around.
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Author: vljenewein
Date: 2012-07-03 15:36
I know the Chinese are replicating items that are made elsewhere in the world. However, if one does a good enough job with correct equipment, some things can be well made in many other countries, including China, as they may have been in their original birth-country. Many Clarinets are made in America, and I believe they originated in France. Ridenour has clarinet bodies made in China out of hard rubber and sent to him to be assembled and finished into clarinets. These have be reviewed by several that found the Ridenour clarinets equal if not exceed some of their very best examples of clarinets from anywhere in the world.
I stumbled across this thread when I was doing some research on a Buffet Clarinet B12 I have on my watch list on eBay. As such, since this is again prevalent on eBay, I believe it is worthwhile to dig up "old bones" or threads as they are and give light to what is happening in the world of mass sales and online bidding. Not only could these things be found on ebay, but it is entirely possible that they could find their way into flea markets and some shops with an exaggerated price tag, way more than the $157.00 they are sold for (7/2012) to "appear" as righteous. What better way to throw one off is to reverse that old adage "you get what you pay for" and if one pays "more" then it would appear to be ok. Get what I am saying? They may only cost $157 on ebay but may end up at other places like Craigslist, flea markets, swap shops, etc selling at $800 or more as "genuine".
Vernon
Jenewein Duduks Manufacturing & Research
www.duduk.us American made Duduks
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Author: vljenewein
Date: 2012-07-04 03:59
Just an addition.... I went to the website of www.schreiber-harmony.com and read about the history at this link: http://www.buffet-crampon.com/en/history.php Toward the bottom I came across this piece:
"Through these three brands, Buffet Crampon, Antoine Courtois and Besson, the Group is present in the woodwinds sector (clarinets, bass clarinets, oboes, bassoons, saxophones) and brass instruments (trumpets, cornets, flugelhorns, trombones, French horns, tenor horns, baritones, euphoniums, tubas, saxhorns). The BUFFET CRAMPON professional models are manufactured in the finest tradition of French instrument making, in the historical site in Mantes-la-Ville, in France. The Group's 2007 turnover was 60 million euros, 90% of which was from exports, representing growth of 18% over 2005. Groupe Buffet Crampon is determined to confirm its place in the luxury range by calling on the tradition of French instrument manufacturing and the « Made in France » reputation, as have the best-known luxury brands On a parallel level, the industrial partners in Germany, India and China are being developed to manufacture student instruments.
The tradition, the spirit of the company and the musicians accompaniment have been, since 1825, and are now more than ever the centre of the dynamic of the Groupe Buffet Crampon."
Now, they are saying that they ahve partenered in Germany, India and .... CHINA. Which begs to ask if there might be Buffet Crampon "student" models made in China?
Vernon
Jenewein Duduks Manufacturing & Research
www.duduk.us American made Duduks
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Author: bwilber
Date: 2012-07-04 14:35
I have repaired a lot of Buffets and I was looking at the posting of 4 Buffet B12's in earlier postings, where there are 3 fakes and 1 genuine B12. From what I can see, if you see that on the lower joint, you see retaining screws by the lower posts, you can tell this is a genuine Buffet B12? Other than that, they look pretty similar. Also, I would like to add that when I have fixed up genuine B12's they play beautifully but I have no idea about the fakes, how they play.
Bonnie Wilber
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Author: lizholt
Date: 2014-01-19 16:53
Hi all, I've just come across this thread, while researching Buffet B12s generally. I have, over the past few years, been overhauling and restoring B12s for the student market. I like being able to take a filthy, gummed up student instrument, and turn it back to a beautiful, sparkling 'as new' instrument, with new pads and corks, for a new learner to enjoy.
But I've also been concerned by the Chinese fake B12s that seem to be increasing in numbers on Ebay again. I've reported some to Ebay, but they still keep coming. I'm always very careful in checking the instruments I buy, looking carefully at the photographs and descriptions. But it seems that it'll only be a matter of time before the b******s manufacturing these fakes realise that people are on to them, and change the logos that they're putting on to look exactly like the real thing. (The Chinese are renowned for faking logos of every description).
So my question is, when the logo becomes unrecognisable, are there any other signs that one could look for that will demonstrate clearly that a clarinet is not a genuine B12?
Alison
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-01-19 17:18
Key corks - Chinese clarinets tend to have a lot of natural key corks which are often thicker than normal (see the side Eb/Bb for example).
More than one barrel - genuine B12s only have the one barrel supplied with them.
Ebonite bodies instead of ABS.
A yellow duster and white cotton gloves are also a dead giveaway!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2014-01-19 19:03
The counterfeit Buffets I've seen are not modeled on the actual student Buffets, so there will be lots of differences on close examination.
Steve Ocone
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Author: lizholt
Date: 2014-01-19 22:48
Thanks both. These are some useful clues, and hopefully will be evident from the photos.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2021-01-02 16:09
I have just taken the gamble of buying a used BC R13 ( 1131 L -2-0 ) through Aliexpress . ( The add is still posted for anybody curious ). There are a number of pretty good fotos of the product with the Buffet logo printed into the wood of all the parts which appear authentic to my eye . One photo is a close up of the thumb support below which and also printed into the wood " R13" and below that the number " 0103368 " . That's a seven digit number rather that just the six I understand it should be , unless of course the first zero is to be ignored and is not an anomaly , which would then make the instrument check out as a 1968 production I believe .
If ANYBODY knows if this truly checks out or not please let me know as in theory I will have a 15 day window to return the clarinet if it does not comply with the sales description.
Many thanks .J
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2021-01-03 19:56
I hear you and am not about to argue .
But if you have a moment then please check out the add which is still posted with Aliexpress and is easy to find under " R13-L " .
What other that the dodgy serial number and suspiously low price would tell you this is a fake Buffet from examining the images they provide ?
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2021-01-03 20:49
Agree it’s definitely a fake. There are numerous other giveaways. The ad suggests multiple instruments are available in “Ebony” or “Bakelite” so this isn’t a discounted used instrument (anyway the logos would show wear on a used one), the case isn’t a Buffet, the packaging isn't Buffet, the thumbrest isn’t a Buffet design, neither is the mouthpiece cap, the bell is a different shape and has no ring, Buffet don’t supply mouthpieces with R13s, pillars for LH pinky keys are a different design...you get the idea!
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2021-01-03 21:10
Well the biggest thing is that Aliexpress is not a place to buy used items. It is a place for Chinese exporters to sell cheap goods and nothing more. You should never buy anything on Aliexpress (or Wish for that matter) expecting it to be high quality.
The second biggest thing is that if a deal is too good to be true it always is. If there was an R13 for sale for under $500 then it will sell in minutes. There's just too many people out there constantly searching for cheap instruments, so you're not going to find the deal of a century unless you spend hours on eBay a day.
Now lets move on to the listing itself. First of all the case is wrong, it looks like a cheap Chinese case. The real Buffet case has a red interior with a rounded shape. But lets give the seller the benefit of the doubt and say maybe they just replaced the case. The second red flag is the thumb rest, it's clearly not a Buffet thumb rest. Now again we could assume maybe they replaced it with a different one, but at this point there are several red flags that should tell you this is a listing to be avoided. A big red flag is the location of the serial number. Why would any manufacturer put a serial number where the thumb goes? That's just going to be uncomfortable and will wear down. Buffets only have serial numbers at the bottom of each joint. Also they are not marked "Made in France" below the serial number. Next look at the logos. They are stamped too deep and are not the right color. They are also the newer style, again why would someone sell an almost new Buffet R13 for less than 10% of the original price? Next we have the bell ring, R13s have a bell ring, this one does not.
And finally, the biggest red flag is the white gloves. Good instruments do not come with white gloves!
Hopefully this helps you in the future. Right now you need to get in touch with your credit card company and do a chargeback. Aliexpress does not give you a full refund unless you ship it back to China, which will be quite expensive. Not to mention it is a felony to ship counterfeit goods in many countries, so once you have it you have to find some way to remove the logo if you want to send it back.
-Jdbassplayer.
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2021-01-03 21:42
See if the company will take it back. After all, their listing states that "Customer is God."
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2021-01-03 23:48
Well!.... I thank you all for your studied replies to my question . Obviously not what I was hoping to hear but then,if one doesn't want to hear the truth one shouldn't ask !
Yes ! ..in theory I can return the item and at least cut my losses on this mistake .
I'm not going to worry about laws regarding shipping counterfeit stuff as they clearly don't .
I will write a follow up post when I get the instrument to let anyone who's curios know more .
Until then ..... Thanks again .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-01-04 10:52
Buffet DO supply mouthpieces with all their clarinets to complete the outfit, but they're only a basic plastic mouthpiece as it's not cost effective to supply quality ebonite mouthpieces if no-one is going to use them (except with an entry level plastic clarinet outfit bought for a beginner to start playing on straight away).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2021-01-06 10:41
>> Buffet DO supply mouthpieces with all their clarinets to complete the outfit, but they're only a basic plastic mouthpiece... <<
Some of their student models, at least in some countries, come with Vandoren mouthpieces.
>> I hear you and am not about to argue .
>> But if you have a moment then please check out the add
Some of the ads there use photos of an actual product for advertising the fake ones... so not always possible to tell from photos in the ad unfortunately.
This one is fake and as others mentioned.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-01-06 13:45
Talking specifically from a UK perspective as I can't vouch for the goings-on in other countries, Prestige basset horns and maybe their alto clarinets are supplied with a Vandoren alto clarinet mouthpiece - maybe their Eb and D clarinets as well. But Buffet soprano (C, Bb, A and A basset) clarinets and basses are usually supplied with a basic German-made plastic mouthpiece (or more commonly known as a 'door stop').
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2021-01-08 10:32
The ones I've seen come with Vandoren mouthpieces have been from three different countries, though most of them were bought (new) in Germany. They were the E12F model, and possibly another model or two (Maybe E13, I don't remember exactly). Maybe it was a dealer/distributor decision and they replaced the stock mouthpieces with them. I suspect it's Buffet themselves because it's not just one or two stores and not in the same area. It makes sense that it's done with the student/intermediate models since for the better models it's likely a player would want to choose their own mouthpiece anyway.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2021-01-21 23:26
Hi all ,
My fake Chinese Buffet finally arrived !
In the meantime I bought my wife the Yamaha 450 that I should have done in the firsts place . It's probably the right instrument for her level anyway .
Looking at this fake buffet objectively, having pretty much gotten over my disgust over the whole business . It kind of apitimizes how bizarre the Chinese can be . This instrument has enough evidence of good craftsmanship that I imagine that if whoever made it had invested less in perfecting the Buffet logo , and more in sourcing some decent keywork and just going that extra mile , they could be proudly marketing their own brand of decent instruments for a competitive price on the market . The wooden body is finely crafted with no flaws or cracks( well.... Not yet ! ) . It's either grenadilla or ebony . It seems to play in tune and the sound is rich and fairly balanced . The keywork is difinitly Chinesey . Heavy spring action ,a stingy layer of Crome over only God knows what metal and lacking precision.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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