 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: WashingtonClarinetist
Date: 2014-01-16 05:23
I recently ordered 2 humistats for my double case. My Bb clarinet has developed a loose tenon ring from the dry winter air, and I figured it was time to get some more humidity in there. Unfortunately, the humistat company screwed up and only sent me one. The other one won't be here till next week.
The single humistat has been in my case for 24 hours with no effect. I did soak it for a few hours first. Does it just need more time to work?
Do I really need a second one to see any effect?
My clarinet has to be playable by next week for a gig; at what point do I decide the humistat is not enough and try a different method?
Would it be the worst thing in the world to play my Bb anyway?
Post Edited (2014-01-16 10:40)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-01-16 09:48
If you assemble the joints with loose rings, you run the risk of splitting the sockets due to the outward pressure from the tenon corks. That will cost more to repair than having the rings refitted.
Your best bet is to have the loose rings refitted with shims (paper or thin cloth) so they're a tight fit on the sockets as that will ensure they'll stay put and provide the support that loose rings won't have. They needn't be removed when the humidity levels rise again in Spring and won't cause any problems as the sockets won't crack while under compression.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-01-16 13:29
I come from a woodworking background; it takes a while for wood to swell up in a humid atmosphere, Give it a week in humid conditions, and don't assemble the clarinet with loose rings.
Bruno.
See here.
http://cherubiniyachts.com/index.html
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Author: DougR
Date: 2014-01-16 19:34
I use those things too. They are adjustable, meaning you can regulate how much moisture they let out into the case. I'd experiment with that ( I have, actually); also, don't forget you're humidifying the entire case and everything in it, not just the clarinet. It's useful to have the entire case humidified inside to minimize changes in humidity when the humistat runs out of water and you don't notice for a few days. (I believe one factor that can initiate cracking is abrupt and severe change in humidity, which is why Dampits are frowned on for clarinets, as far as I know.)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-01-16 14:37
To begin with, I second Chris's advice.
But in response to your actual question, I don't know how humistats distribute their moisture because I haven't used them, but I have sometimes used Dampits and other times orange peels and I find the rings have tightened by the next day or after 2 days at most. It may be that yours were slightly loose to begin with but not enough for you to have noticed, which might take longer to recover.
See what you can do about humidifying the room where you keep the clarinets as an alternative to (or in combination with) putting humidifiers in the case. The low humidity isn't especially good for your upper respiratory tract, either.
Karl
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-01-16 20:01
I'm...also.... among those who "bought into" the Humistat thing. I find them a waste of time, messy and totally useless. Disassemble the horn and put the loose tenon section in a "tupperware" type container with a damp paper towell and check periodically. Of course, in dry weather the ring may loosen again. IMO putting any available humidifying device in the typical clarinet case is a waste of time since most of the water goes into the plush lining. On occasion I resort to wrapping each clarinet section in "saranwrap" and sometimes I've covered the case lining with Glad Press''nSeal.
Bob Draznik
Post Edited (2014-01-16 20:27)
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Author: WashingtonClarinetist
Date: 2014-01-16 20:02
Re: shims - unfortunately I do not know of a reputable repair person in the area that I would trust with something like that and I won't be able to go out of town any time soon. I'm also not sure I want to tighten the rings when the wood is dry, as they fit just fine last spring/summer. I will keep it in mind though, if the rings don't tighten up in higher humidity.
I'm honestly not sure yet how much the humistat is doing. The water level has not changed in 36 hours. I went ahead and bought a room humidifier this morning. I need a quick solution, and even if the humistat will eventually work, it's taking too long.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-01-16 20:22
The old-time remedy for this, even before Dampits, was to cut an orange peel into smallish pieces and put them in the case with the instruments (not directly into the bores of any of the parts). I always try not to have the peels be in direct contact with the instrument, especially the metal, because I'm not sure what any acid in the skin would do to it.
Hans Moennig recommended orange peels over Dampits, which were just becoming popular when I was a student, because he was sure the volatile oils that he felt were evaporating from the peels were better for the wood than plain water, which is also obviously coming out of the orange peels. I've never been very certain about the involvement of oil in this, but you get as much moisture as you will out of any humidifier, and you get the health benefit of eating the orange. In any case, I've never damaged an instrument using either Dampits or peels and I usually get a quick result.
Shimming won't cause a problem when the weather warms up - you use paper, which has enough give to absorb any expansion in the wood. It can be an easy DYI project.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-01-16 20:40
Socket rings are held on by the wood being in compression from the pressure of the rings, so fitting shims will keep the wood in compression with no ill effects. If the tenon is a tight fit in the socket in the wood is binding, then the socket can be trued up or the tenon ring shaved down so the tenon fits the socket without binding.
Tenons should fit their respective sockets well without a tenon cork fitted. This is especially important on the middle tenon so it doesn't rock which will cause regulation problems with the long Bb or prevent the RH ring key vent pad from closing. So tenons have to be a perfect fit - neither too loose nor binding.
I'm not overly keen on tapered tenons or sockets - well fitting parallel sided sockets and parallel tenons are far better and more reliable and can be pulled out without any risk of rocking.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-01-17 10:16
>>How quick should humistat fix loose tenon ring? <<
Between a few hours and never but it is impossible to know in advance
IME never is far more common... unfortunately...
For shimming I prefer to shim with shellac (for wood clarinets) and not paper, etc. for a few reasons.
Shellac is "automatically" adjusting to the exact thickness it needs to fill in any place between the the socket and the ring. It's rigid but still has ability to adjust itself (though this varies a lot depends on the shellac used... I've tried many).
Paper or any other material has a specific thickness or maybe it slightly compresses. It is often very tight, but makes some parts of the circumference not supported.
Shellac is also easier to redo if necessary, but I've only ever had to do that once out of many times.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-01-17 09:35
I used to use shellac, but recently I've been using hot-melt glue. It provides good even support and can be softened to allow removal.
Tony F.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-01-17 16:21
Hot melt and shellac are tricky terms. AFAIK no shellac glue is 100% shellac anyway and what % is and isn't shellac is variable and probably unknown to anyone but the maker. Some shellac is called shellac but it's actually completely synthetic... so a type of "hot melt glue", though is too too really.
"Shellac" is possible to remove the same just like "hot melt glue". The reason I use (a type of) shellac is that it's more rigid when it dries and has better support. Non-shellac hot melt glues are usually more flexible when dry, but this means less support for a socket ring. Its advantage in theory is that it can move a little more and less likely to crush with the ring falling. In reality in extreme temperatures I found this is a non-issue with shellac, so no disadvantage.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-01-17 17:39
So, Nitai and Tony, you're actually gluing the rings on? I assume you're pushing the rings onto the still soft shellac or hot glue? Or am I misunderstanding?
Is there any downside to this? Why don't the manufacturers cement the rings in place in the first place?
Karl
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-01-17 17:50
Now I notice that WashClar is talking about tenon rings.....not socket rings.....
Bob Draznik
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-01-17 18:11
"So, Nitai and Tony, you're actually gluing the rings on? I assume you're pushing the rings onto the still soft shellac or hot glue? Or am I misunderstanding?"
This is correct. I run a thread of hot-melt glue around the ring rabbet and then slide the ring over it. It sets in a few seconds and will stay secure for ever. The glue has enough give to keep the ring secure no matter what the wood does, and it gives more even support that a shellac type glue. Often, when examining a loose ring that has been secured with shellac I find voids in the shellac layer.
Nittai, I make up my own shellac glue from flaked shellac and alcohol. Assuming the shellac is unadulterated, that's about as pure as you can get.
Tony F.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-01-17 23:40
No offense, but I don't think shellacking the rings in place is a good idea. For one thing, it makes it impossible to know if/when the wooden part has shrunk due to inadequate moisture. I would rather know when something is wrong.
They were pressed on at the factory for a reason. I think the reason is that given the tendency of wood to swell and shrink a press-fit is the best way.
Tony F said: "Often, when examining a loose ring that has been secured with shellac I find voids in the shellac layer."
That was because the wood dried out, shrank away from the shellac, and as you discovered, the ring became loose anyway, right?
Bruno.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-01-17 19:01
Hot glue is flexible, so it will still allow the wood to move when the tenon is fitted - this won't do much to support the socket fully and not much to prevent the socket splitting during assembly.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-01-18 14:04
>> Now I notice that WashClar is talking about tenon rings.....not socket rings..... <<
Socket rings are often called tenon rings, especially for clarinets that don't have actual tenon rings. I guess it's not clear what ring exactly WashingtonClarinetist is talking about...
>> you're actually gluing the rings on? I assume you're pushing the rings onto the still soft shellac or hot glue? <<
Yes, I put the ring on while the glue is soft.
>> I make up my own shellac glue from flaked shellac and alcohol. Assuming the shellac is unadulterated, that's about as pure as you can get. <<
I have both flakes and sticks. I have no idea how pure each type I have is. I was just told by a shellac supplier who stocks many types that shellac glue is not 100% shellac. I don't know more than that.
BY the way, I didn't mean that 100% (or closer to 100%) pure shellac is necessarily better in any way, so saying shellac is not 100% shellac wasn't a negative criticism.
>> The glue has enough give to keep the ring secure no matter what the wood does, and it gives more even support that a shellac type glue. <<
I disagree. I found they both give as even support as you can around the circuference because both completely fill the gap. IMO hot glue gives significantly less support because it's softer when dry.
I have a type of hot glue that is called synthetic shellac because it tried to be very close to real shellac in that it's more rigid than other hot glues. I still prefer shellac.
>> Often, when examining a loose ring that has been secured with shellac I find voids in the shellac layer. <<
I can't say I found this often or not, because no one has ever come back to me a loose ring that I glued/shimmed with shellac. I also glued/shimmed one of the rings on my own clarinet and I am often in cities with drastic changes in temperature and humidity. I removed some years later just to check and it was still completely filled with no air gaps at all. I am guessing there was something wrong with the way the rings you saw were glued, or possibly with the specific type of shellac.
>> For one thing, it makes it impossible to know if/when the wooden part has shrunk due to inadequate moisture. <<
In by far most cases, even in drastic weather changes, the rings remain tight. So how would you know if the wood has shrunk or not? Even if it's dry and cold, rings usually don't fall or become loose. "Inadequate moisture" is too variable IMO.
Although gluing the the rings doesn't take that long, it still takes a certain amount of time to hear the ring, smear glue, put the ring, wait for it to dry, clean any excess. Since it's often not needed, a factory definitely wouldn't want to "waste" cost to have another work station and/or another person doing that.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-01-18 14:09
clarnibass wrote:
> Although gluing the the rings doesn't take that long, it still
> takes a certain amount of time to hear the ring, smear glue,
> put the ring, wait for it to dry, clean any excess. Since it's
> often not needed, a factory definitely wouldn't want to "waste"
> cost to have another work station and/or another person doing
> that.
They have everything else so amazingly automated, I can't believe they couldn't get a machine to do this. I can imagine a machine dipping the ring seat into the heated cement (shellac or whatever) and then pushing the barrel or bell into the ring.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-01-18 19:47
Tenon rings - OOPS!
If they're loose (the ones on the actual tenons as opposed to socket rings), then they're not much of a concern, although if they rotate they can tear the tenon cork. They're usually formed from 0.5mm nickel silver sheet which is stamped to form the basic shape, then fitted and spun onto the end of the tenon to keep them in place, so can often become loose and rattle around when the joints shrink due to low humidity.
I usually run superglue into them while the tenon cork has been removed (from the tenon slot side), but you can still get superglue to wick into them by carefully applying it to the gap between them and the end of the tenon (being careful you don't get any in the bore) and shifting them about until the glue fills the void between the tenon and the inside of the tenon cap.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-01-18 20:00
Thanks Chris. Problems often get mis-identified. I feel fairly sure that the original Poster meant socket ring but one never knows.
Bob Draznik
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-01-20 10:26
>> They have everything else so amazingly automated, I can't believe they couldn't get a machine to do this. <<
Actually, although a lot of it is automated, a lot isn't automated. They could probably do this, but is it worth it? Most things that are similar in concept to gluing a socket ring are still done by people in almost all companies. Really cleaning every last little bit of extra glue is maybe not so easy to do automatically.
You can see in the Yamaha saxophone video, they have a ridiculously modern factory, they even custom design and build some of their own machines, but you can see an old lady gluing pads in key cups and a guy with a hammer banging on brass sheets
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