 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Musikat
Date: 2014-01-11 17:07
I am waiting on a delivery of my first ever synthetic reed (A fibracell #4), which was recommended by Woodwind & Brasswind over the Legere. Since it was much less expensive and I had a $10 credit with them, it was basically free, so I decided to try it. I have been researching Forestone and Legere as well and was wondering what people's experiences with all of these have been?
I play a Vandoren V12 4 reed on a Rick Sayre mouthpiece and an R13 Buffet Bb clarinet. Part of my hesitance about trying some of the more expensive reeds is not knowing which strength to try. For example, I have seen positive things on this board about Forestones, but reviews on WWBW say they are very soft and only go up to a strenth 5. Would that be what I should try if I am not happy with the Fibracell? I am excited to find a solution to the never ending perfect reed quest, but I am skeptical, too.
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2014-01-11 22:25
I just purchased a Legere reed with my boxes of Vandoren V12's. The blank is much thinner than a v12 and the sound quality was rather disappointing. I know that the reed has worked for a lot of top notch players and was hoping to find the same result.
Oddly enough, all my V12's are much friendlier with my new Ishimori gold ligature.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-01-11 22:29
I don't like how they feel in my mouth. There's something "buzzy" and "un-woody" about them on my tongue and lips. Ugh!
B.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-01-11 22:58
My experience with Forestones, too, is that if you use cane reeds at the upper end of the range of strength (#4-5), the Forestones are too soft - they collapse on a close+long faced mouthpiece.
I play on a facing that's probably as close/long as anything in general use (although I own a couple with even closer tip openings), and I'm finding that Legere #4 in the Signature series seems most comfortable.
The knock on Fibracell has always been that they tend toward thin and shrill tone quality in the upper instruments, although this translates for some players to more clarity and color in the larger instruments - the low saxes and low clarinets.
A lot depends on what kind of playing you do. I don't think there's a real way around experimenting and risking that some of them won't work out. Legere specifically offers to exchange one of their reeds for a different strength if you buy one that's too soft or too hard. I think there's a limit on how many exchanges can be made. I've never read about a similar policy with Forestones or Fibracells. Forestone at one time early in its history was offering kits of several reeds of varying strengths, but I don't think they still do that.
The best way from players' standpoint would be a system by which you could order (and probably have to pay for) a variety of different strengths "on approval" with the right to return the ones you can't use for a full refund (minus, maybe, a small restocking fee). The online outlets will all do this for mouthpieces. I don't know if they'd do it for synthetic reeds. I've never asked (and now that I think about it, I don't know why I haven't).
Karl
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Author: kilo
Date: 2014-01-11 23:04
I find that the Legere Quebec (3¼) works very well for me throughout the whole range of the instrument and, since I rotate six of them, they last a very, very long time. I use Legeres on my bass clarinet and on my tenor and bari saxes as well and I find that if I use a cane reed it feels (and tastes) weird in my mouth, like a rough-textured tongue depressor. People who should know better have complimented me on my sound. One nice thing about Fibracell, though — it looks like a cane reed and its appearance seems to mollify the would-be critics of plastic. I'd encourage you to keep looking around and trying out various synthetics. They're obviously not for everyone but if you find a brand you like you can really save yourself a lot of reed work and invest that time in playing.
Post Edited (2014-01-11 18:05)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-01-11 23:14
kilo wrote:
One nice thing about Fibracell, though — it
> looks like a cane reed and its appearance seems to mollify the
> would-be critics of plastic.
I actually think the cosmetics of the reed have something to do with usability as well - apart from what anyone else thinks about our using them.
One of the things I read often, and confirm in my own experience with Legeres, is that position on the mouthpiece is critical. It's important with cane as, as many of my students seem not to understand. :-) But because of the clear/translucent nature of Legeres, I have a much harder time seeing where they are on the facing, especially in non-optimal lighting. It's much easier to place an opaque, light-colored reed. I wish Legere might find a way to make his reeds more eye-friendly in this way.
Karl
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Author: Musikat
Date: 2014-01-12 00:06
So if I wanted to try a Legere, given my current cane reed set-up, which model and strength would you recommend?
I have a Rick Sayre mouthpiece (not sure of the facing, but looking them up on the web, they are supposed to be similar to Kaspar, since Sayre was his protoge) and use a Vandoren optimum with the vertical plates (I accidentally threw away the bag with the others when I picked my instrument up after a 9 year absense and completely forgot what they were!). My cane reeds are Vandoren V12 strength 4.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2014-01-11 19:17
I know many people like Legere reeds, and some top pros seem to get good results from them. I can only report that this wasn't my experience. OK, I only bought one, but it feels fine for strength (I normally use V12 3.5) - it's just that the sound is no good. Of course, this is true for most cane reeds as well, but at least I can afford to keep buying boxes of 10 in the hope of getting 2 that can be used in a concert. After this complete contradiction to the general enthusiasm I'd found on this BB, I'm not motivated to try Forestone or other alternatives.
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2014-01-12 01:27
Don't confuse "no good" with "different."
That the Legeres sound differently than cane reeds that you have played doesn't mean they're inferior.
B.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-01-12 02:07
I wholeheartedly endorse the Legere over going crazy any day. During this season where the dew point can hover around 10 degrees, the chances are that you WILL have problems with cane. If that happens to the point where you really feel trapped, you should have some Legeres in your arsenal. I find a quarter strength less than your Vandoren is about right. So a #4 Vandoren would be equivalent to a 3.75 Legere.
I agree that the Fibracells sound more shrill/woody, but that is a plus when using them on bass clarinet (there I use a half to a full strength greater).
But if you are comparing a good cane reed to a good synthetic the synthetic just doesn't hold up on the overtones and projection. The Legeres are good, just not equal.
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2014-01-12 04:24
I use Vandoren 3.5 cane reeds and I find them comparable to the Legere standard and Signature 3.0 reeds. The Legere reed goes down in strength a hair after break in which happens in the first week. After the initial break in they sound better and can be played about an hour a day for many months without any change. Since I usually have two or three in rotation, they are good for a year. At $20 each on sale, you could conceivably be good for a year for about $60! The problem with these reeds is that they are a bit slippery, so they take some getting used to, but they sound just as warm as a good Vandoren reed to me. My vision is not perfect so in order to get them correctly lined up on the mouthpiece, I have to put on reading glasses. This is due to the see through nature of the material they are made of. The nice thing about them is that once you determine which number is good for you, you can buy that strength and style and be confident that all their reeds will be very similar.
I have a beautiful wood reed holder that holds 12 reeds. More than half are good cane reeds and the rest are Legere. Most of the time, I can't be bothered with the hassle of going through the cane to see which one of them would work well for the day. Legere reeds are not only as good, they save me from going crazy. The feel is different but I'm convinced one could save time and money and frustration with Legere. I tried Bari synthetic and they seemed too different from real cane for me. I'm a traditionalist in every other regard. I drive only stick shift cars. My race bicycles are all hand made steel, not carbon fiber, I shave with a double edged old-fashioned blade and razor, i hand sharpen my kitchen knives with oil stones, My stereos are all tube based rather than straight transistor based, and I use a lot of tung oil finishes on my furniture projects. Still, I'll take a Legere synthetic reed any day.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Shiney
Date: 2014-01-12 00:19
In my limited experience with Fibracell, Forestone, and Legere (in that order of use), I find they are quite different from one another, but all usable in different contexts. I have neither the time nor inclination to be messing about with cane reeds
To Garth -- maybe Forestone's brown colour would help with reed placement. In my estimation, they're about a half strength softer than the equivalent Legere standard, and are somewhat brighter, with more emphasis on higher overtones compared with the standard Legere (the only one I've tried).
My Fibracell is brighter still, to the point of harshness from the mid-clarion range up, but I rather like it in the chalmeau, and imagine I would agree with Paul regarding their use on a bass clarinet. I'm not sure why WWBW would recommend them over Legeres for a soprano, unless they're trying to offload them.
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2014-01-12 08:58
Do a search - this topic has been discussed A LOT over the past several years. Given that, my experiences are the same as KDK's:
"My experience with Forestones, too, is that if you use cane reeds at the upper end of the range of strength (#4-5), the Forestones are too soft - they collapse on a close+long faced mouthpiece."
They always felt too soft - I bought the top 3 strengths they had at the time and was not happy with their adjustability and they were all much too soft. For comparison, I play Vandoren 3.5 or 4.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2014-01-12 12:38
Legere Signature reeds work the best for me. I believe that Legere will let you exchange one strength for another for free- at least that was their official policy in the past.
Legere reeds don't work as well on more open facings. I have used Fibracells as well but not on soprano clarinet. On sax I'm able to play more softly, but I can't push them as hard.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Musikat
Date: 2014-01-12 21:23
My mouthpiece is a Rick Sayre. The only marking on it besides the logo is the number 495. I assume it is a closed facing mouthpiece, only because I need reed strength 4 to sound good on it. I experimented the other day and went to try a Vandoren M13 Lyre, as well as some R's (I think) that the store had out and asked me to try. None of them came close to the sound on my Sayre, so I didn't buy. I went ahead and ordered a Legere Signature 4 to try as well as the Fibracell. Fingers crossed!
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2014-01-13 07:20
Several of us in our community tried Legeres. One out of three still use them.
That person's tone stayed the same as with her cane reed. In my case, I felt my tone to become a bit harsher with the Legere and don't use it except for the rare emergency.
In addition, my experience in the uniformity of Legere has been below expectation. My expectation was that because of the uniform material and manufacturing process, that the strength would be precise, one reed to the next. I was mistaken. I ordered two originally. One was stiff beyond its number. I sent it back and testing acknowledged that it was out of spec. They did send a replacement.
I agree, placement on the mouthpiece does seem more sensitive than with cane, not just with perceived hardness, but also relative harshness. Cane seems more forgiving/flexible. In other words, there is more latitude with acceptable effect with canes position on the mouthpiece.
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-01-13 02:45
Jerry wrote:
> One out of three
> still use them.
> That person's tone stayed the same as with her cane reed. In
> my case, I felt my tone to become a bit harsher with the Legere
> and don't use it except for the rare emergency.
I'm not wildly enthusiastic about synthetic reeds, although I use Legeres under some circumstances. But this part of Jerry's post maybe points up part of the problem with evaluating these reeds.
What you hear when you listen to another player is not the same as what you hear when you listen to yourself. Apart from the amount of bone conduction that changes the sound that actually reaches your brain when you play, there's a huge amount of information mixed in generated by sensations you feel in your mouth and embouchure as the reed vibrates. When you hear someone else playing on a Legere (or other synthetic reed) you only hear the difference in externally transmitted sound, which may well be negligible. All the rest - the sensation of the plastic vibrating against your lip and the sound you hear through your jaw and bony ear structures may suggest more of a difference that someone else hearing you play may notice.
It's pretty much, I think, the same phenomenon when we convince ourselves that a different barrel or reed brand or ligature has a dramatic effect on our sound, but no one else seems to notice it.
Karl
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2014-01-13 20:17
I certainly would not want to dismiss the capacity of most players to discern differences in the quality of their own tone. I agree that we may not hear everything that the listener hears. But that is not to say that we cannot discern a better quality tone from an inferior tone that we are playing.
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-01-13 17:03
No, we don't hear less - we hear more of our own tone than a separate listener does. As a result, we tend to be more critical and find more fault in general with our own playing than listeners do. I think this is part of the explanation for our not noticing anything wrong (and a lot right) with the sound produced on a synthetic by someone like John Moses or (from what I've been told recently) Ricardo Morales, while finding them unsatisfactory when we play them ourselves. It isn't that we can't tell good from bad in our own playing, but rather that we hear more of the bad in our own sound than others do.
Karl
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2014-01-13 23:46
Is it possible that I sound like Ricardo Morales to others but like Woody Allen to my own ears?
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-01-13 23:59
Ask someone who has listened to you.
Karl
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Author: Musikat
Date: 2014-01-13 23:59
Fibracell arrived today. Hated it. It was buzzy and made the middle register on up extremely flat. I can't even use it to practice on. Good thing it was free! I should get the Legere tomorrow. Hopefully that will sound better.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-01-14 01:30
Musikat wrote:
> Fibracell arrived today. Hated it. It was buzzy and made the
> middle register on up extremely flat.
Description sounds like the reed is just too soft. Maybe a harder one?
Karl
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Author: Musikat
Date: 2014-01-14 01:45
Maybe,
But even for a "softer" reed, the tone quality in the lower notes was terrible. I will play around with strengths on the Legere if it seems like that is the case.
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Author: Musikat
Date: 2014-01-15 00:26
Just thought I would report my results wth Legere. Wow, what a difference! I think the 4 might be just a hair soft (it plays like a really good reed that is just starting to "go"), but it is definitely something I could play on in rehearsal and practice. The tone is almost as good as cane, but I can detect that subtle difference, although it might be the strength. I think I am going to purchase a second reed in 4.25 strength and see if that is better, then exchange the one that I don't want. I was so happy to find a synthetic that actually plays well, though!
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-01-14 20:09
Cut and pasted from one of my prevous comments on this BB "Synthetic Reeds'
You have to get over some sort of psychological barrier when first trying out synthetic reeds for clarinet. Initially they just don't feel or sound right.
I use the Forestone synthetics with excellent results but it took me some time to get use to using them. I had to first match up the synthetic reed resistant grade with a suitable mouthpiece.
In my case it was resistant grade 3 or 3.5 with a Vandoren B40 Lyra. And I am having good results with other types of Vandoren mouthpieces but the highest resistance number I can use with Forestone is 4.
They are produced by the molding process and each is near perfect in dimension and shape, clones actually. There is no such thing as an unbalanced Forestone reed.
Forestone synthetics are suppose to be 50/50 plastic / bamboo pulp but that ratio apparently varies with the different resistant grades.
As for the altissiimo range of the clarinet using the Forestone synthetic reed , I felt that I had to approach this high range with a 'modified' embouchure but I"m not sure what exactly it was. I've always used a double embouchure when playing Clarinet anyway.
Now , after using synthetic clarinet reeds for some time now I am so pleased with the results that I hardly ever use natural cane reeds.
Recently I played in a Gilbert & Sullivan operetta (HMS Pinafore) and no one realized I was using a synthetic reed, not even my fellow clarinetist.
One thing I"ve noticed however is that , whilst using a Rovner ligature, moisture gradually gets under the reed.
The underside of these Synthetics are very smooth (waterproof actually), just as smooth as the Table of the mouthpiece. Once this very thin layer of moisture is there the reed begins to sound a bit on the 'dead' side.
Take the reed off and wipe it dry and also the MP Table. Instant FIX
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2014-01-14 20:19)
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Author: marcia
Date: 2014-01-15 05:44
My brief experience with a Legere reed was less than satisfactory. Played an outdoor concert several years ago, using my plastic insturment with Legere reed. After about an hour, I could not get any sound out of the instrument. I didn't have a cane reed with me, but fortunately the concert was almost over by then. I wondered if my "el cheapo" clarinet had developed a problem, but when I got it home and put on a cane reed it played just fine. That remains a mystery to this day. ![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif)
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Author: kilo
Date: 2014-01-15 17:18
Quote:
After about an hour, I could not get any sound out of the instrument.
This is from the Legere site:
Quote:
Some players have reported that after an hour or more of intense playing, the reed softens a little. This behavior is normal, and the reeds will return to their original feel after they have been rested for a bit.
I know of Legere players who switch reeds during concerts to prevent this from happening.
As I've said before, I use them on all my horns and find them more than satisfactory. I think the biggest drawback is the problem pointed out by Jerry — they may not be as uniform as the manufacturing process would lead one to believe.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2014-01-16 21:28
>This is from the Legere site:
>Quote:
>Some players have reported that after an hour or more of intense playing, >the reed softens a little. This behavior is normal, and the reeds will return >to their original feel after they have been rested for a bit.
Thank you for solving that mystery.
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2014-01-23 07:15
I have found that on that facing I play a Legere signature 3.25, of sometimes the #3. The consensus that I've observed on people using and performing with Legere reeds is that the people who play closer tip mouthpieces have been quicker to adopt them.
Ricardo Morales told me that he's move from the more open "P" facing mouthpieces to playing on the "L" and the "C", but mostly the "L" with a 3.75 or a 4 on it.
I play a Moba L and a mouthpiece by Jim Kanter. I find I play a slightly softer reed on mine. 3.5 and 3.75. Sometimes if I'm on the 5 the gig of a 5 gig weekend and it's klezmer I'll use a 3.25 and let the mic do the work. But if I were soloing with a band or doing a recording I'd use the 3.75
As a Legere Artist, I've had the luxury of having the entire line of Signature reeds at all strengths. I find that when ever anybody "pops" one on and doesn't like it, it's because they don't have the correct strength. They make them in 1/4 strengths because you have to get it right. I have found that just like cane reeds by various manufacturers all play differently within the same strength off different "cuts" i.e. I find that Rue 56, V12 and traditional Vandoren reeds each have a slight difference in the resistance at 3.5. For instance on the above mentioned mouthpieces I'll like a Vandoren #3 Traditional, a 3.5 Rue 56, and 3.5+ on V12s. That just me and how I like my air to flow. But with my students and other professional clarinetists that I've worked with on this obtaining the correct strength is a little more "obtuse". I seen some players play harder Legeres than cane and some play softer.
So here is what I recommend. If you play a #4 cane reed. Order a Legere 4, 3.75, and a 4.25. Try them for a few days. That spread of strengths will help you Zero your choice. pick the one you like if it's the #4 send back the other 2 and have them send you another 4. If the 4.25 is the one you like return the other 2 and get another 4.25 and a 4.5. Legere is really good like that.
Legere reeds are really worth a really good Play test. At best you'll switch like I and a few other professionals have done, at worse it will be the best "spare" reed in your case. If you're playing a show or on a gig with a sax or bass clarinet that sitting there for a bunch of minutes before you play it. Figure these reeds out NOW!
Tom Puwalski, Legere artist, Backun and Antigua Performing artist.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-01-23 02:54
It's very cold and snowy outside and my reeds have felt really mushy since Monday night. I finally got tired of dealing with it and got out my favorite Legere (#4 Signature) and played for about a half hour - it actually sounded better than the cane reeds had. Then I put on my other #4 Signature - tubby and breathy. When I tested it for suction, I got absolutely none - apparently the reed is warped. It does rock *a little* from side to side, but not much.
I did, several weeks ago, try to soften the warped reed by dipping it in just-boiled water for a couple of seconds. At the time it seemed to play more easily.
Has anyone else had a Legere warp? Is it common?
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-01-23 16:07
I bought a Legere Studio Cut 2.5 for alto sax off eBay for considerably less than the usual asking price.
Unfortunately it's much harder than Vandoren red Java 2.5s which I normally use so hasn't got the flexibility I want.
And doubly unfortunate for me is it's far too soft for use on basset horn/alto clarinet.
Do they lend themselves well to adjusting (to soften them) as a cane reed?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2014-01-23 17:29
Here what they say on the website, Chris:
Quote:
Sanding, scraping and clipping of reeds is discouraged. Clipping the reed with a conventional reed clipper is likely to cause tip damage. If necessary, the reeds can be scraped with a sharp blade held perpendicular to the reed. They should be scraped from the top of the vamp towards the tip. Fine sandpaper may also be used in the same way. NEVER sand or scrape the reed in the other direction. Do not try to sand the base of the reed.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-01-23 18:14
Good one!
I'll be using this reed on alto sax, so scraping as opposed to clipping will be the order.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: William
Date: 2014-01-23 23:36
"One mo' time", my experience with Forestone reeds: I was lucky to have sent to me a complete set of Forestone clarinet reeds when they first came out to pass around at a local university clarinet festival. Until then, I was using V12's, 3.5/4.0 exclusively, but when I tested one of the F's (during a rehearsal for "Peter & the Wolf", I was immediately impressed with how easy it was to arrive at the high F# in the 'chase the cat up the tree' cadenza. I went on to play both performances with that reed and have never gone back to cane since. However, one thing I have noticed, recent samples of Forestone clarinet reeds have not lived up to their earlier models in terms of response and sound, and I have related those feelings to the Forestone folks as honest constructive feed back. The bad news is, subsequent samples sent to me within the last year--including some "black" reeds, have not proved up to the quality of the Forestones of two years ago. I fear they are more interested in producing the new line of sax reeds (which are excellent, btw) and new models of saxophones rather than the clarinet reed. They do offer a new carbon fiber model clarinet reed which I have, unfortunately, have not had the opportunity to review. Bottom line: Forestone sax reeds are superior in response and tone producting--if you haven't tried them, do ASAP. However, the recent clarinet that I know of are not up to their earlier quality and I can no longer recommend them. I continue to use older Forestone clarinet reeds for all of my orchestral, solo and ensemble performances and fortunately, they are holding up very well.
And for those of you still reading this entry, that first "Peter & the Wolf" reed is still one of the twelve Forestone reeds in my clarinet case and continues to play quite well, even after four years of use.
My main clarinets are a set of vintage Leblanc Concerto's customized by Tom Ridenour at the Kenosha, WI facility with an original Chicago Kaspar #14 mpc and Vandy Optimum lig--parallel rail insert. For jazz, I use a vintage R13 with a Glenn Bowen customized mpc and Vandy lig.
Post Edited (2014-01-23 23:51)
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