 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-30 14:49
The grain on this clarinet is very wavy - they look more like wide open pores or vessels than cracks from what I can see, but it's difficult to tell from photos.
How many of the cracks are actually causing problems such as leaks?
Do any of the cracks go right through to the bore?
Are the joints airtight if all the keys are removed and all the toneholes are plugged up?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2013-11-30 15:38
How can we help you otherwise than advise you to get it repaired?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-11-30 16:54
It looks as though the pads are worn and the pad seats are very rough and worn as well. From what I can see in the photos, the instrument will need a lot of work besides crack repair - if those aren't just surface checks.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-30 17:01
I'd suspect it could be around the 1000 Euros mark to have this clarinet completely rebuilt to a high standard if that's what you wanted to know.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: gajdar4o
Date: 2013-11-30 17:12
I bay from ebay for $ 600.Needs new pads and repair crack.In Bulgaria we use full boehm sisstem for traditional weeding music.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-30 18:01
Scroll down...
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2013-11-30 18:12)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-30 18:06
Scroll down...
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2013-11-30 18:12)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-30 18:09
Attachment: 327586_10150431024388547_1923306458_o.jpg (330k)
Attachment: selmerseries9clarinets 001.JPG (702k)
That's a lot for a clarinet in that condition, full Boehm or otherwise.
I bought a used Series 9 full Boehm for around 350 Euros which I completely rebuilt and had replated in silver and used until I rebuilt my Centered Tone full Boehm which cost around $300 and had no cracks (which I also had silver plated and completely rebuilt). This is my main clarinet and plays beautifully (see attached photo).
I bought a good used full Boehm Series 9 A clarinet for around 700 Euros before that. Here are both the Series 9 Bb and A clarinets:
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Keywork/FB/07.jpg
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-11-30 18:14
The thing is, how does it play?
You can clean it up, so that it looks better; but actually, if the pads cover (you need to check that they do) and there are no leaks (you need to check that there aren't) it might very well be a great instrument of its type, even in its present conditon.
I recorded Spohr I and II on such an instrument.
Of course, you need to find someone who plays the clarinet well to try it. If that's not you, then we can't help -- despite those here who say they can.
Tony
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2013-11-30 19:16
Because of number, nature and position of the cracks I would recommend that you have it carbon fibre banded rather than pinned.
The grain is quite coarse but some players find that this type of wood often produces the best tone.
It looks as though it really could do with a complete repad but even with that work plus banding it should cost much less than 1000 Euro. 400-500 should cover this work.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-30 19:45
I dread to think how it'll end up if it only cost around 500 Euros to completely rebuild - that's far too low for this kind of work on a full Boehm (complete overhaul plus crack repair, carbon fibre banding and bushing toneholes).
This kind of repair work on a clarinet like this isn't something for the faint-hearted to attempt - you're best seeking the best repairer you can find to put it back into top form, even if it means sending it abroad to have it completely rebuilt. Are there any repairers in Bulgaria that would be prepared to rebuild this clarinet?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-30 19:56
Talk some sense then Tony. If you're such an expert, how many full Boehms have you rebuilt? Please tell me in great detail how I should do my job.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2013-11-30 19:58)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-11-30 20:09
You don't need to rebuild something that is working.
To find out whether something is working, you need to play it.
To play it, you need to be a player, able to play 'clarinets', not just one clarinet.
He needs to find out something about his instrument, other than what it 'looks like'. He's said nothing about how it plays.
'Your job', if it is just to rebuild clarinets, isn't applicable if it isn't necessary.
Tony
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-30 20:20
Even Stevie Wonder can see this clarinet is in a bad way and needs urgent attention!
If it does happen to play some notes, it doesn't mean it's completely playable.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-30 20:38
Going by the photos I doubt you'd play this clarinet in its current state to a paying audience.
Best bet is to get it sorted out so it's fully functional. I'm sure it will end up a great instrument once all the work has been done - at the moment it's probably only half the instrument it should be.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-11-30 20:40
I see 99% open wood grain, with a few cracks. A crack is what goes through to the bore, and it must be pinned or banded. Open grain makes no difference.
You can fill the grain if you want to. It was almost certainly filled when the instrument was new. However, that won't improve the playing except where the grain intersects a tone hole rim. Grain filling is routine work for good repair shops.
The pads are in poor condition, and the key mechanism looks almost as bad. The instrument will benefit tremendously from expert repadding and key conditioning. I have a very good tech in New York City who does that for $200 (€147.24), so €1000 seems high.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-11-30 20:44
Thank you Ken, for nothing.
I have played very crappy-looking clarinets that worked very well. We currently know nothing about this one.
Tony
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-30 20:51
"I have a very good tech in New York City who does that for $200 (€147.24), so €1000 seems high."
Really? Is he retired or a millionaire? That's a huge loss he'd be making if he only charged that for a complete rebuild.
I'd be interested to see if he can stick solidly to that price on rebuilding this particular clarinet in the poor condition its in, so if he's true to his word (or your word as you're speaking on his behalf), send this clarinet to New York to have it restored by him.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-11-30 21:17
Oh, for heaven's sake. Rebuild?? On the basis of these pictures???
Anyway, this is a silly thread.
As I've pointed out, we need to know what's wrong with the clarinet in order to give proper advice. The pictures are useless. A bit of cleaning up would transform what the instrument looked like, and quite possibly a bit of clingfilm show which pads needed replacing.
But, in passing: we have here Chris Peryagh, who I recall wanted to bang Ken Shaw's and my heads together when I said that Ken should EITHER retract his accusation that a certain document was 'riddled with errors', or say what those errors were. (Why wasn't that just a reasonable request for accuracy of statement?
Ken and Chris are of course both 'interesting' people in the sense that commitment to accuracy isn't of great import to them.
Now, I have to say here that I work quite closely with the staff of Howarth. In particular, I've worked with Jon Steward for, I suppose, forty years, and with others there for a bit less than that, so I understand quite well the relationship between technicians and musicians.
Still, I've never encountered Chris Peryagh in the flesh.
But, given his attitude to my head, and his notion of accuracy, I'd like to say that IF I encountered him, I'd like to put HIS head between two bits of his lathe, and ask him to specify EXACTLY how far apart he'd like them.
Tony
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-30 21:38
Tony, while you may have worked closely with staff, have you worked closely on actual instruments in a capacity to service or repad them yourself?
I've heard from former colleagues that you're not exactly the most pleasant person on this planet. While I happen to enjoy your recordings on one hand, I think you're a complete twat on the other.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2013-11-30 22:09)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-11-30 22:06
By the way, should I copy this interaction to Howarth?
Tony
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-30 22:09
Do what you want as I'm past caring.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-11-30 22:18
The truth is, that I have never ever had a negative interaction with anyone at Howarth.
I couldn't say that about every company, but I can say that about this one.
Jon Steward, in particular, has been one of my dearest friends and colleagues. He helped me construct the basset clarinet that I first used to record the Mozart concerto.
In my opinion it's a great company, and I recommend it.
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-11-30 22:25
The other thing I want to say is that I admire many of Chris's posts.
I wouldn't want to diminish my appreciation of his contribution because of the content of this thread.
Tony
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-12-01 03:11
Thank you Lady Sneerwell.
If you don't like the topic, please stop reading it.
Post Edited (2013-12-01 03:12)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-12-01 07:46
This seems to have come a long way from the original posters question. If you want to run a personal "did-didn't-did-didn't" sniping session, take it offline. It's getting boring.
Tony F.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2013-12-01 07:59
I agree with Tony. It is impossible to know what repairs are needed without seeing and checking the clarinet. I've seen clarinets that would look almost like new in photos that needed more repairs than clarinets that looked at least as bad as this one.
Because of the economics and culture in my country, it is actually very common for people to invest whatever is needed in making a clarinet play as well as possible, but invest the least necessary in anything that is only cosmetic. That's why there are quite a few clarinets that play great but can look even worse than this one (cracks aside).
Some mentioned the pads and seats looking worn, etc. Some clarinets can have pads that look terrible but seal fine. I don't see any pad seats in any of the photos (whether referring to the pad side i.e. the circle or the tone hole rim).
The crack near the thumbrest looks like a crack. The one through a trill tone hole is possible but hard to sya. The others are really difficult to tell from the photos whether they are really cracks or just grain.
The thing about cracks is they are unpredictable. A clarinet can crack and unless the crack is through to the bore, or passing a tone hole that causes a leak, you never know whether it would be a problem or not. A tiny crack can turn into a monster crack days later, but a significant looking crack can stay just the way it is forever without any repairs. It's all about how the crack is trying to open more. That is why it is usually recommended to repair cracks, just in case, but it is never 100% possible to know.
Of course it's also possible that this clarinet plays terribly. BTW it's missing the guide for the top two trill keys.
Post Edited (2013-12-01 14:01)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-12-01 13:52
I found mine on eBay in France, Austria, the US and Hungary. Also check listings in Italy, Germany and Romania. I also bought a Buffet full Boehm locally and a Leblanc LL full Boehm that was advertised on Howarth's used instruments list, but I prefer the Selmers.
I haven't been disappointed in any Selmer clarinet I've bought and played from the earliest with the eagle/globe logo through to the 10S, although I prefer the large bore Selmers.
The 10S has a more focussed sound compared to the large bore Centered Tone and Series 9 and with full Boehm systems you'll have more resonance in the right hand notes due to the longer length of the lower joint.
Your 10S looks like it's from the late 1970s so is an early example (it has exactly the same style keywork as my 1978 Series 9), but has had a hard life, but that's not to say it can't be restored. Missing parts (such as the missing trill key guide) can be found from donor instruments or new old stock parts found on eBay or made to fit from solid nickel silver by a repairer.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: gajdar4o
Date: 2013-12-01 16:59
I ask the selmer comany and they said me from 1981.I use Selmer 9 full Boehm sistem in great condition.Can you give me your e-mail or facebook?I'm very happy to communicate with you.My facebook is Martin Lyamov or e-mail gajdar4o@gmail.com
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-12-01 17:10
clarnibass wrote:
>> Because of the economics and culture in my country, it is actually very common for people to invest whatever is needed in making a clarinet play as well as possible, but invest the least necessary in anything that is only cosmetic. That's why there are quite a few clarinets that play great but can look even worse than this one (cracks aside). >>
That's why I have to (a certain degree) agree with either party. I understand Tony's "how does it play" approach, and I understand Chris' pride in a "complete job". (I too couldn't repad the an instrument without (within reason) cleaning it first - this may be unnecessary but is probably the first thing the proud owner notices).
On the other hand at some time I give up and say "it may look like sunk with the Titanic but it sure plays like a dream". At which end of the scale you see yourself is simply a matter of personal preference and we could argue all day about it.
So...my personal verdict says "impossible to judge from this distance". I am sure that with 20% total effort you get an 80% optimal instrument...how much the remaining 20% are worth in money, time and work is up to each one individually.
--
Ben
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-12-01 21:21
Given the absence of cork on the upper tenon, it is unlikely that anyone will know how this instrument plays until it has had at least some repairs done. Ferree's has a very thin super glue designed to repair fine cracks. While it may not be what you prefer as a permanent repair, it would be a way to temporarily repair the cracks. If the instrument is kept in a relative stable environment, it could easily be an inexpensive (they provide instructions, too) and permanent repair.
My series 10 has the same sort of grain structure as well as several similar fine cracks. While I, too, prefer my series 9 or CT, my series 10 plays very well with nothing done to the cracks. Some day I may get around to gluing them, but they have been stable for many years.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-12-01 21:25
Given the absence of cork on the upper tenon, it is unlikely that anyone will know how this instrument plays until it has had at least some repairs done. Ferree's has a very thin super glue designed to repair fine cracks. While it may not be what you prefer as a permanent repair, it would be a way to temporarily repair the cracks. If the instrument is kept in a relative stable environment, it could easily be an inexpensive (they provide instructions, too) and permanent repair.
My series 10 has the same sort of grain structure as well as several similar fine cracks. While I, too, prefer my series 9 or CT, my series 10 plays very well with nothing done to the cracks. Some day I may get around to gluing them, but they have been stable for many years.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-12-01 21:50
One of the bells on my first set of Selmers has this wavy grain pattern with large pores/vessels throughout, so makers are always at the mercy of the quality of the grenadilla they use.
Being a natural product you're hardly likely to have perfect billets for every joint on every instrument and defective billets were often turned into barrels (cutting the bad bits off), sax end plugs, grease pots and oboe/cor anglais tenon covers.
Several of my Selmers also have knots in the joints as well as filled in worm holes (made by some kind of beetle larvae that has the teeth to bore through grenadilla), so they didn't appear to be particularly choosy back then.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-12-02 02:18
My series 9 and CT are better wood than my series 10, but nowhere near the quality of my model 55 or my pre-WWII Kohlert. In addition, my brother's CT is better wood than his relatively new Buffets. It's a pretty small sample, but it does seem to support those who insist the quality of wood is on the way down.On the other hand, I think i would find a knot in a joint to be pretty scary.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2013-12-02 04:51
>> So...my personal verdict says "impossible to judge from this distance". <<
That's exactly what we were saying too
Post Edited (2013-12-02 04:52)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-12-02 12:00
gajdar4o -
Please let us know how the restoration goes and how the horn plays after restoration. Before and After photos would be nice.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-12-03 22:19
>> By the way, should I copy this interaction to Howarth?>>
>> Do what you want as I'm past caring.>>
Your own silly opinion of me is one thing; misrepresenting other people's opinion is another.
The person (other than Jon Steward) with whom I deal at Howarth was horrified.
Tony F: diddums.
Tony
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The Clarinet Pages
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