Advertising and Web Hosting on Woodwind.Org!

Woodwind.OrgThe Clarinet BBoardThe C4 standard

 
  BBoard Equipment Study Resources Music General    
 
 New Topic  |  Go to Top  |  Go to Topic  |  Search  |  Help/Rules  |  Smileys/Notes  |  Log In   Newer Topic  |  Older Topic 
 Justification for a barrel like this?
Author: vintschevski (---.szxk1.cha.bigpond.net.au - (Telstra Internet) Brisbane, 04 Australia)
Date:   2013-11-29 01:32

Needing a 68mm barrel for my Buffet RC clarinet, I recently ordered one from a company that has been discussed on this board which offers barrels at comparatively low prices. I've just received it in the mail, and although externally it looks fine, internally it's a somewhat unpleasant surprise. The internal bore is way off centre, clearly so to the naked eye. And the finish at each end of the internal bore is rather poor (scratching), but particularly so at the mouthpiece end where there is a raised ridge, crescent-shaped, running around the fatter side (since the bore is off-centre).

I have lots of other clarinet barrels, far too many, and none has an internal finish anywhere near as poor as this.

I sent an email to the company with a swift reply that it is closed until 12th January next year.

Can it be theoretically argued that such a finish makes no difference to the playing quality of the barrel?



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Justification for a barrel like this?
Author: kdk (---.phlapa.fios.verizon.net - (Verizon FiOS) Langhorne, PA United States)
Date:   2013-11-29 02:28

Have you tried the barrel? While I would intuitively expect a rough bore surface with a ridge running around it to have some effect on the barrel's resistance level and tone quality, others will have to comment on the acoustic theory that may be involved. But I would think empirical observation in this case ought to trump theory. If it plays poorly, then it doesn't make much difference why. If it plays well, it doesn't really matter much what it looks like inside.

Do you know why your RC is so sharp that it needs a 68 mm barrel?

Karl

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Justification for a barrel like this?
Author: kdk (---.phlapa.fios.verizon.net - (Verizon FiOS) Langhorne, PA United States)
Date:   2013-11-29 02:45

BTW, my 1st reply doesn't mean that I think the barrel should look like what you've described. The scratches might be explained by hand reaming. The off-center bore and the ridge (if I'm understanding what you mean) seem sloppy-sounding.

The question still is whether or not the barrel sounds good and corrects whatever problem you meant to correct when you ordered it.

Karl

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Justification for a barrel like this?
Author: Ken Shaw (---.dyn.optonline.net - (Optimum Online) Brooklyn, NY United States)
Date:   2013-11-29 02:50

The volume and taper of the bore are all that matters. Kalmen Opperman made numerous barrels and mouthpieces for me, and none of the bores are shiny. A couple of them have serious-looking internal dings. He told me he had ruined many barrels and mouthpieces by trying to make them shiny inside and had learned to quit once it played right.

Alvin Swiney says that Hans Moennig preferred wood with open pores, particularly for bells. See http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/lookup.php/Klarinet/1999/11/000876.txt and http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/lookup.php/Klarinet/1999/05/000596.txt.

If you're in a band, look at the tubas. Giant dents in the brass make almost no difference.

Keep the barrel or return it depending on how it plays and tunes, not how it looks inside.

Ken Shaw

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Justification for a barrel like this?
Author: Tom Ridenour (---.mycingular.net - (AT&T Wireless) Plano, TX United States)
Date:   2013-11-29 09:23

Look down the bore of the upper joint.....you'll notice two large obstructions known as the thumb tube and register tube. If those don't make a difference.....why would a rough finish inside a barrel necessarily cause problems.

"Playing the clarinet with your eyes" is something a lot of clarinetists fall into. Either this set up plays or it doesn't; judge it on what your ears tell you, and the tuner, not your eyes.

Play it. If theirs a problem with it.....well, then go ahead and get your refund, exchange, etc.

Ted Ridenour

Ridenour Clarinet Products, www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com, sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Justification for a barrel like this?
Author: vintschevski (---.szxk1.cha.bigpond.net.au - (Telstra Internet) Brisbane, 04 Australia)
Date:   2013-11-29 10:56

I have the greatest respect for Tom Ridenour. There is a certain degree of irony in his choosing to comment on this thread, however. The last time I had an issue with a clarinet barrel was about 18 months ago when I purchased a plastic student model Ridenour clarinet through his "shop" on the well-known auction site. It was an excellent clarinet and I said as much in an email to him. The single barrel that came with it, however, was so narrow at the mouthpiece end that although I have about 130 mouthpieces, including a number of Ridenour mouthpieces, I couldn't find a single one that I could squeeze into that barrel. No great problem, since I have plenty of other barrels, but it seems that occasionally barrels can go wrong somehow. I also commented on this barrel problem in my email to Tom, but I never received a reply from him.

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Justification for a barrel like this?
Author: modernicus (---.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net - (AT&T U-verse) Alpharetta, GA United States)
Date:   2013-11-29 14:31

Kdk- In my experience it is the mouthpiece that can make the difference. I have a mouthpiece that can use a 68mm barrel and one that could use a 64mm on the same clarinet (stock barrel 66mm).

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Justification for a barrel like this?
Author: Alseg (---.hsd1.pa.comcast.net - (Comcast Cable) Beaver Falls, PA United States)
Date:   2013-11-29 20:03

Offsetting the bore, as long as it is not overdone, allows you to change the tonality by varying the rotational axis of the barrel. (aka finding the so-called sweet spot).
Porosity is a variable, and sometimes the rougher bores produce better sounds than the ones that are like glass.
The inner bore part of the socket can be elevated and render a better seal than one that is perfectly perpendicular to the sides. In a free-hand turned barrel, tool markings might be evident. (Mine would be an example).
Of course, of greatest importance is--- how does it play?

Perhaps, if dissatified, you can return it. Since it was, as you say, "at comparatively low price," I know it is not from me or any of my barrel buddies.

Disclaimer: I make and sell custom barrels.

DR. ALLAN SEGAL-where the sound matters most(tm)
CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS
www.clarinetconcepts.com
http://chedevillemp.com/rbuy/barrel
412 889 8202
alseg@aol.com

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Justification for a barrel like this?
Author: vintschevski (---.szxk1.cha.bigpond.net.au - (Telstra Internet) Brisbane, 04 Australia)
Date:   2013-11-29 21:54

Thanks, Alseg, that's a particularly interesting response as it's the offset bore that intrigues me most. I have over 90 barrels and on none of them is the bore offset - except now for this latest acquisition. Could it be deliberate?

And how much offsetting is "overdone"? Do you yourself produce barrels with deliberately offset bores?

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Justification for a barrel like this?
Author: Wes (---.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net - (Verizon Internet Services) Hermosa Beach, CA United States)
Date:   2013-11-29 22:09

Many years from now, you or your heirs may wish to sell off your collection of musical items, such as barrels. That barrel would be difficult to resell. Mistakes can occur in manufacturing and it may represent one.

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Justification for a barrel like this?
Author: BflatNH (---.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net - (Fairpoint Communications) Merrimack, NH United States)
Date:   2013-11-29 22:58

I can confirm that there is a rotational 'sweet spot' even if an offset is not easily seen. For my barrel (from a well-known source) seems to have 2 preferred positions about 90 degrees apart, and which one is best is different depending on the reed, ligature position, and what particular notes you want the barrel to improve.

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Justification for a barrel like this?
Author: Alseg (---.hsd1.pa.comcast.net - (Comcast Cable) Beaver Falls, PA United States)
Date:   2013-11-29 23:36

vintschevski, we are talking about 0.005" or so off center. Rarely as much as
0.010.
This offset would be visually perceptible if it is observed through the aligned bore of the upper joint if the barrel's exit bore is narrower than the entry bore of the upper joint (a frequent and normal measurement especially in taper bore barrels ).
By the way....how does this dog bark??

DR. ALLAN SEGAL-where the sound matters most(tm)
CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS
www.clarinetconcepts.com
http://chedevillemp.com/rbuy/barrel
412 889 8202
alseg@aol.com

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Justification for a barrel like this?
Author: vintschevski (---.szxk1.cha.bigpond.net.au - (Telstra Internet) Brisbane, 04 Australia)
Date:   2013-11-30 22:49

Alseg, the offset with this particular barrel is one sixteenth of an inch (though I'm not entirely certain how to talk about centre-offsets in measurements so perhaps it should be described as one 32nd of an inch?). The internal wooden sleeve of the bore is double the width on one side that it is on the other. This seems to me to be a considerable offset. It is obvious at a glance.

I was hoping that somebody might predict how such a barrel would play, according to acoustical theory.

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Justification for a barrel like this?
Author: beejay (---.40.89.79.rev.sfr.net - (SFR) Meudon, A8 France)
Date:   2013-11-30 23:51

I'm intrigued. How on earth did you acquire more than 90 barrels, and what the heck do you do with them all? For the record, I have only the barrel that came with my clarinet and manage to play in tune.

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Justification for a barrel like this?
Author: kdk (---.phlapa.fios.verizon.net - (Verizon FiOS) Langhorne, PA United States)
Date:   2013-12-01 02:04

vintschevski wrote:

> I was hoping that somebody might predict how such a barrel
> would play, according to acoustical theory.

Sort of like going online to find out from a meteorologist with a bank of computers what the current weather is outside instead of opening the front door and looking.

You have the barrel in your hands. Have you put it on a clarinet and played it yet?

Karl

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Justification for a barrel like this?
Author: Alseg (---.hsd1.pa.comcast.net - (Comcast Cable) Beaver Falls, PA United States)
Date:   2013-12-01 04:02

Somehow all the cooking contests I have ever seen come down to...a judge tasting the food.

With that in mind.... we are awaiting the verdict.... How does it play?

DR. ALLAN SEGAL-where the sound matters most(tm)
CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS
www.clarinetconcepts.com
http://chedevillemp.com/rbuy/barrel
412 889 8202
alseg@aol.com

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Justification for a barrel like this?
Author: vintschevski (---.szxk1.cha.bigpond.net.au - (Telstra Internet) Brisbane, 04 Australia)
Date:   2013-12-01 05:12

The point of my thread is being missed. Perhaps I have not expressed myself as clearly as I should have, but perhaps what I have said should be read more clearly, too.

I'm not asking anybody how this barrel plays. I don't need to start a thread here in order to find that out.

But that isn't the thread I started. Please look at the topic heading. Please read the question that ends my first post. In other posts I have indicated that I'm interested in the theory of barrel design, for example: could the offset bore be deliberate? I've invited people to comment on how they think, from the point of view of the acoustical theory of barrel design, that this barrel would play. If you like, it's a test of the theory. Why, after all, do the vast majority of clarinet barrels have centred bores? What might be the problems created by an offset bore? Could an offset bore be a radical new design?

So I suppose if you're not interested in the theory, then by all means ignore this thread. It's as simple as that.

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Justification for a barrel like this?
Author: Alseg (---.hsd1.pa.comcast.net - (Comcast Cable) Beaver Falls, PA United States)
Date:   2013-12-01 19:54

We get it.

BUT........

There are a bunch of missing numbers

I do NOT know the bore dimensions and taper, if any.
If it has a taper, does it reach the narrowest zone quickly or farther down the bore? Convexly, concave, straight, cylindrical?
What about the distribution of its mass?
I do not know how it would perform since it is such an outlyer, although my guess is that it is mediocre since likely it was not play tested.

BUT after all the cogitation, the denizens of this board want to be rewarded by your observations on its performance

DR. ALLAN SEGAL-where the sound matters most(tm)
CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS
www.clarinetconcepts.com
http://chedevillemp.com/rbuy/barrel
412 889 8202
alseg@aol.com

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Justification for a barrel like this?
Author: Bob Phillips (---.gold.air-pipe.com - (Air-pipe, LLC.) Sandpoint, ID United States)
Date:   2013-12-02 04:52

Check that the bore of the barrel is concentric with the tenon sockets. That is much more important than having the inside bore and sockets concentric with the outer diameter.

Try playing the clarinet with the barrel rotated to 4-different positions (logo toward the tone holes, logo to the trill keys, logo down toward the register key, and logo facing left.

If all of the holes line up, there won't be any/much difference in the way the clarinet plays between all of those positions.

Bob Phillips

Reply To Message
 Avail. Forums  |  Threaded View   Newer Topic  |  Older Topic 


 Avail. Forums  |  Need a Login? Register Here 
 User Login
 User Name:
 Password:
 Remember my login:
   
 Forgot Your Password?
Enter your email address or user name below and a new password will be sent to the email address associated with your profile.
Search Woodwind.Org

Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale

The Clarinet Pages
is sponsored by:

Reeds
Great reeds available from around the world

Events
Major events especially for clarinetists

Instruments
Retailers and manufacturers of clarinets, both modern and early replica

Accessories
Accessories that every clarinetist needs - reed makers and shapers, ligatures, greases, oils, and preservatives ... and more!

Music & Books
CDs, Sheet Music, and some of the greatest reference books ever written!

Miscellaneous
Services and products too varied to categorize! Repair, recording, news

Classified Ads
FREE Classifieds! Instruments, and accessories, For Sale and Wanted

Mouthpieces & Barrels
Fine makers of mouthpieces and barrels, from wood to crystal to hard rubber and plastic

Service
Instrument repairs, restorations, adjustments, and overhauls.

 
     Copyright © Woodwind.Org, Inc. All Rights Reserved    Privacy Policy    Contact charette@woodwind.org