 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bill49
Date: 2013-11-20 17:12
I have Bb and A Yamaha SE clarinets from the 1990s. Mechanically, they are in fine shape. I recently had the 4 bottom pads replaced on both instruments. For the longest time, I thought that either the pads were misaligned or that I was just a poor player. The repair technician discovered that the problem seems to be neither the mechanics of the clarinet nor my playing, but that there is an acoustical problem with the instrument, probably with the bell. I'm not in a position to purchase a new set of instruments. I just need help finding a suitable fix. The repair technician, who went on her repair forum for advice, suggested trying new bells for both clarinets. I see there are some folks in British Columbia who make custom bells, but I would like to find someone a bit closer to North Carolina who might be able to help me figure this one out.
Here is a recording of the sound on both instruments, both ending on D-B D-B D-B in the upper register.
http://www.allstarsprevention.com/public/Clarinet_Short.mp3
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2013-11-20 18:31
Did you have this problem before the pads were replaced?
If answer is no then the problem will not be the bells.
Have you tried a different tech.?
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-11-20 20:48
What exactly is the nature of your problem? There are a lot of Yamaha clarinets out there, and they seem to be designed pretty well. Bearing this in mind, you have to ask the question "What's different about mine, and are there any common factors".
Tony F.
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Author: bill49
Date: 2013-11-20 21:13
The problem has been around for a long time. For years, I just thought I couldn't play correctly. The tech did in fact reduce the extent of the problem -- more for the Bb than the A. I've perhaps become more attuned to it as I've tried to pick up pieces that aren't forgiving. I don't notice it as much when I tongue, but when I slur into the B or C from a higher note (not one right next to it), the problem is noticeable -- at least to me.
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Author: bill49
Date: 2013-11-20 21:16
In reply to Tony F.
Tony, listen to the mp3 clip. You can hear the problem better than I can explain it in words. Trying to understand the problem is part of my reason for posting. So if you have an explanation of what you hear, I would appreciate you sharing -- or even speculating-- about it.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-11-20 22:31
If "the problem has been around for a long time," I would think the solution *could* be a new bell for each, or a tech who knows what to do with the ones the instrument came with. But it isn't a guarantee. Muncy Winds is in Villas, NC. They're very knowledgeable and might be able to steer you toward a solution.
Karl
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Author: Wes
Date: 2013-11-20 22:41
Take it to a reputable repair person, perhaps Muncy. It's hard to believe that the bells are bad as Yamaha would not send out bad bells. The recording tells me nothing.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2013-11-21 04:31
What's the problem? After listening to it.....is it pitch? resistance? what? Your tonal quality seems consistent.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-11-21 04:51
I didn't get any real clues from the clip as to the nature of the problem. There seems to be some pad slap, but that may be due to the placement of the mic. Apart from that, the only thing that comes to mind is that when we play, what we hear as players is not what the listener hears.
If we accept that Yamaha are not manufacturing instruments defective in design, and the fact that this problem seems to be unique to you seems to indicate this, then what are the chances of buying two clarinets, each with exactly the same problem?
What I heard on the clip did not sound inherently 'wrong" to me, and when I played the same slur on my Imperial it sounded pretty much the same. It may be that you are chasing a ghost. Getting the instruments checked by another tech sounds like the next step.
Tony F.
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Author: donald
Date: 2013-11-21 07:21
I suppose you have tried various other clarinets to see if you still experience this "problem"? I only listened once to the clip, but heard what sounded to me (an experience professional player who has been teaching for 30 years) more like a tone production problem. If you were one of my students i would be encouraging you to keep the "concentration"and "focus" in your sound and air stream- it sounds to me as though you initially "back away" from the note to compensate for the stuffiness/fuzzy sound and percieved resistance that is common on this note (middle B), AND that all this did was actually make it worse.
The worst sounding B was the first one, and the more times you played it the better it sounded- as you became more confident voicing the note you played it with higher airspeed.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-21 07:27
Have you checked your speaker tubes to be sure they're clear of any build-up? That will affect the response and quality of the upper register B. On some A clarinets, the upper register B is not as good quality as the D due to the placement and diameter of the speaker tube which is nearly at it's limit for this note.
How cleanly does low E speak? Ignore the fact it's on the flat side as that's normal with the majority of clarinets, just concentrate on the ease of response and tone quality of that note. I doubt you'll have any problems with low E.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2013-11-22 04:10
My SE A Clarinet is just absolutely wonderful. I can't imagine Yamaha delivering an instrument with a "bad bell." Their quality control seems to be 6-sigma (nothing gets to the customer that isn't within specifications).
Bob Phillips
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Author: hartt
Date: 2013-11-23 01:24
my 2 cents
Like others, I did not hear what you are commenting about.
Not unlike Bob, my SE Bb and A are superb instruments.....intonation, free blowing with a degree of resistance..
Ideally, when playing lever/cluster keys, the finger for that upcoming note should be JUST touching that key (plating). Thus, wthen the previous key/note is released, the ensuing key/note is 'right' there....without hesitation.
Is your 'B' key binding ?
Are you certain that it is sealing perfectly.....and if you are playing the LH 'B' or low 'E', are you continuing to depress the 'C'/ low 'F' key. There could be as maladjustment in the crows foot area or even too tight a screw.
Regarding bells.....purchasing a new bell , in all probability will not resolve your concern.
If you can find the R I G H T / Q U A L I F I E D repair tech they might be able to work the bell in the choke area, and how much of it (beware of techs who say they can do it but do not have the proper tools). This is about a $50 fix.
I had this done to my Bb's, SE and R13 and it improved the airflow of the lower/12ths dramatically. It was found that the SE Bell choke was out of round relative to the lower tenon bore, thus creating a 'ledge' in the air flow. The same was determined with the R13 but that was in round but too small, again creating a ledge. This procedure is a FRACTION of the cost of a new bell..........AND, who is to say that a new bell will not give the same results and/or an entirely different sound you are now experiencing/ commenting about??
Practice SLOWLY going from the C to B. B to C while having the appropriate finger JUST touching the B or C key,....so slightly that all you will feel is the plating.
And, do not lift or depress the keys in a mushy fashion. Going from those keys/notes is a two note function, not three or a gliss.
me
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2013-11-23 14:18
Have you tried reversing (switching) the bells?
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2013-11-23 15:12)
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2013-11-24 09:25
I must admit the recording didn't sound too bad to me.
However on my previous clarinet (an RC prestige) it always felt like the pad for the B key didn't seal properly. New pads can help but if the wood ,where the pad is meant to land, has become slightly warped or the wood has moved it's then hard to get a perfect seal. Not many people could hear this but I could always feel it.
My suggestion would be send it to Backun or some other super tech and ask them to to check this out.
A cheaper option might be softer pads, Valentino?? that could hep this particular key.
Chris.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-11-24 15:06
Phurster wrote:
> if the wood ,where the pad is meant to land, has
> become slightly warped or the wood has moved it's then hard to
> get a perfect seal.
>
> My suggestion would be send it to Backun or some other super
> tech and ask them to to check this out.
>
Or, just a competent one. Checking that pad seats are level and without even small gaps due to chips, dirt or blemishes should be part of normal service. It should especially be part of any pad replacement procedure.
> A cheaper option might be softer pads, Valentino?? that could
> hep this particular key.
>
This might, depending on the pads involved and the settings of the key cups, result in insufficient clearance when the pads are open, which can affect the two or three notes just above B4-C5 (the closed long fingerings).
Not to put too fine a point on it, I actually can hear (or perhaps was convinced by your original post to hear) a very slight loss of color. But there are a number of possible causes, ranging from poor pad coverage through unresponsive reeds, slight bore distortions in the lower section and problems with oral shape and support. Bell damping is only one of those possibilities.
Find a good tech locally (or within reasonable travelling distance) if you can, so you can sit next to him (or her) and show him what you think is wrong. If the tech is a god enough player to play-test the problem himself, you'll be able to tell quickly if the problem is with the clarinet or somewhere else (or if there's a problem at all), and if the tech thinks something can be done to improve things, you can judge as he works whether or not the fix is successful.
Sending the clarinets to someone, however expert, should be your last resort. There are always risks in shipping, and when it gets there, the technician may not hear or feel the problem and will need to guess at how to fix what he can't hear.
Karl
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-11-25 13:17
Im not sure What the problem is. If it is the tone quality of the B, that is a perennial problem.
The register pad needs to be cork, at least 3 mm clearance and needs to be beveled right to the pad seat. And the tube needs to be cleared.
The F/C and E/B pads need to be better than perfect (you may need a different tech for this).Not all pad types work well for those keys. I used a high quality bladder pad and choose the best from the batch. There can't be excessive key play in either of those keys, or binding either. All the other pads need to be sealing well; one problematic key that is often overlooked is the 3-ring key.
Even with everything perfect you can still get some "stuffiness" on the B. To see if any more can be done with the register key, pull it off and play without the key.
Steve Ocone
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2013-11-27 03:08
Bill,
I'd actually be interesting in hearing these in person, and maybe even letting you try my bells on your clarinets (I have a set of Yamaha CSV). I'm in Greensboro as well.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2013-11-29 07:20
I too can not hear exactly what the problem is. The B does not sound that bad.
What you can try is rotating the bell and find the optimal angle for sound and resistance. I don't know whether this will solve your problem but it certainly does make some difference. And of course it would be a very cheap solution.
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