 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2013-10-10 14:56
Why is it that the clarinet market is constantly barraged with new barrels, bells, ligatures, rings, reeds, woods and so much more. It's as though there is a lore which says "it's not you, it's your equipment". I don't buy into it. If you took the $500 you put into your bell and took lessons with that money, I'm pretty sure the result would be far more beneficial.
Oboes, flutes, and bassoons; what do they have? I have a colleague with a wood flute head-joint. That's rather rare. Sometimes there is a rosewood oboe here or there.... And bassoons? You never see a cocobolo bassoon bell. I suppose double reeds have a variety of thread color to bling up those boring reeds...
There are so many people out there claiming they can improve your tone, projection, and whatnot. The improvements are marginal.
I suppose barrels and mouthpieces are the one exception. They do change sound noticeably. Although, sometimes even those improvements are gratuitously over-hyped. I'm just curious when somebody will start selling barrels and bells with the magic of balsa wood.
Does anybody else share this sentiment?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-10-10 15:21
Well, in my opinion nobody needs cars with 300/400/500 horsepower to drive on congested roads with 55 or 60 mph speed limits. But tens of thousands of people in this country buy them anyway. Go figure............
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-10-10 15:37
I agree with you up to a point. For the "average" player having a decent mouthpiece, one that matches the players needs not someone elses, is the most important piece of material, assuming they have a decent instrument as well. A player will sound better with a good MP on a Bundy than they will with a mismatch MP and a Buffet or Selmer. With that said, a different barrel can make a sizeable difference with a player in terms of intonation and tone quality but not nearly as much as a MP will. For an advanced player a different bell can make a little difference in the over all quality making the registers more homogeneous and or altering intonation and tone for the bell tones. I used to think that was not true until I tried the Backun bells years ago and found it made a difference for me, especially on my high B and C above the staff. With that said, only for an advanced player. I doubt it will be noticed to a less advanced player.
Of course the decent reed is top priorty as well which brings us the the ligature. Yes, a ligature will make a difference to many players and may not do anything for others. The more advanced the player is the more they will notice a difference in tone or and or response. Some ligatures dampen the highs some brighten them and that could be said of different registers as well. The bottom line is this. A player ends up sounding like themselves no matter what they use over time. It's just a matter of making things easier for them to sound like they want to and the equipment helps them reach that goal easier. But yes, a mediocre player will not notice much of anything, if at all, by changing all sorts of equipment as long as they have something decent to begin with.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-10-10 16:24
Ed Palanker wrote:
> With that said,
> only for an advanced player. I doubt it will be noticed to a
> less advanced player.
The eternal question is whether, even for an advanced player, the differences he or she hears are audible to a listener at any distance.
If two ligatures sound the same to the audience, does it make a difference which the player uses. Yes, but only if one of them makes the player more comfortable.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-10-10 17:40
Yes, when a player feels better about their equipment than it doesn't make a bit off difference what the audience hears. I will contend though that in many cases, perhaps not all, that there is a slight difference with an advanced player, it may be ever so slight to a trained ear but that's not the point. If I think I sould better using this or that ligature I will sound better because I'm more comfortable playing on it. When I taught at Peabody I would do sound tests when helping a student choose any piece of equipment, especially MPs, Ligs and barrels. I would sit at one side of the room and write down if I felt the student sounded better or worse and than compare it to how they felt and heard. When we both agreed something sounded AND felt better it was a buy. If not, we moved on until we found something else if either one of us felt it necessary.
I was the first symphony player ever to use a Rovner Ligature because he's local and came to me to try it. I instantly fell in love with it and used it from day one. For me, at that time, it made my upper register mellower and that's what I loved. Period!
PS. At the time I sent one to many other symphony player around the country for him. Some said they felt it played better for them but it looked to funny so they couldn't use it. Now it's the most copied style of any ligature and he's sold over a million world wise, way over.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2013-10-10 18:26
My new clarinet came with the "standard issue" barrel and a MoBa barrel. I've had several different people listen to me play while using both barrels and they're amazed at the difference the MoBa barrel makes. The tone is much richer and "deeper." I don't know if this would be noticeable 100 feet away or not.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-10-10 18:40
I use the Dog Test. Whenever I play a particular instrument/setup, I watch the dog and see how he reacts. If he asks to go outside, then I consider the equipment "sub-optimal" and continue searching for better gear. If he stays insides and listens to me play, then I figure the equipment is good enough and I don't need to change anything.
So far, he has never stayed inside to listen.
I hadn't considered practicing or taking lessons or any of that sort of stuff. Hmmm.....Let me discuss these with the Dog.
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Author: ned
Date: 2013-10-11 00:38
Roxann wrote: ''I've had several different people listen to me play while using both barrels and they're amazed at the difference the MoBa barrel makes.''
Was this a blind test, or did these folks see you play - and presumably - actually know which barrel you were using?
Check out this scientific study:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/01/02/violinists-can%E2%80%99t-tell-the-difference-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones/#.UldHBVqhKEI
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2013-10-11 01:00
There is a sound difference between the Backun Barrels, and the Standard issue Buffet barrels, even from the Moennig Barrels.
If there wasn't, my wife wouldn't have let me spend all day in Vancouver with her, and spend the $$ on it - she was doing the listening, and would straight up tell me if it didn't sound any better.
There were also blind listening tests with it.
Depends on what sound you're going for.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: donald
Date: 2013-10-11 01:11
A friend of mine makes wonderful wooden head joints for professional flute players. These have a lovely sound, but lack the ringing projection of metal head joints so a number of players use them for chamber music and solo pieces, but not for orchestral playing. So they have a good quality that the player likes and enjoys, but also come with a disadvantage...
I often find the same thing with new clarinet gadgets etc Often (though- not ALL the time) an improvement in tuning/tone, creates another problem somewhere else. I won't quote examples, but have found this many times over the years. Often the "new problem" is not immediately obvious, and of course may be easily overcome, but sometimes it eventually leads to me saving that barrel/mouthpiece for specific musical circumstance and looking for something else.
dn
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-10-11 01:25
I'll just refere you to the posts I wrote above. Especially about listening to my students play before picking something new. (always blind tests by the way) Don't try telling me there isn't a difference, I'm not deaf, yet.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-10-11 04:18
donald -
Joshua Smith, principal flute of the Cleveland Orchestra, plays on a wood head joint and has no trouble balancing.
For me, Jacques Zoon is the greatest flutist in the world. He has always played on a wood flute, including when he was principal in Boston.
Not to mention the great wood flute tradition in England.
Ken Shaw
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2013-10-11 04:28
>> The eternal question is whether, even for an advanced player, the differences he or she hears are audible to a listener at any distance. <<
IMO that's not the question at all...
>> nobody needs cars with 300/400/500 horsepower to drive on congested roads with 55 or 60 mph speed limits. But tens of thousands of people... <<
Yes and same for many other things people get thye don't need, even if they think they "need" them.
I guess one possibility is that clarinets are usually significantly less expensive than other instruments, so maybe some consider that clarinetists have a lot more spare money the others already spent on their instruments.......
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Author: donald
Date: 2013-10-11 04:32
That's nice, i was just passing on annecdotal evidence from professional flute players, not my opinion. It served to illustrate my point. And Mr Palanker- I'm not sure if your comments are directed at me, but my post doesn't in any way contradict your comments. I have only once ever bought a barrel without extensive "pre sale testing", and oddly enough that one ended up being quite a good one... usually i don't leave it to luck, but that time it worked in my favour
dn
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Author: ruben
Date: 2013-10-11 09:05
Dear TJTG
You do have a point, and a challenging one at that! I try out all sorts of new items and then often find myself going back to the oldies but goodies. We're like insomniacs tossing and turning to try to find a situation to get us to sleep; perhaps the best solution is to stay put.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-10-11 12:25
The placebo effect is very powerful. There's no other explanation for gold-plated ligatures or Hamilton keys. However, I know from personal experience that small tweaks to mouthpieces and barrels can have dramatic effects.
GAS (Gear Accumulation Syndrome) is an addiction few of us avoid. The only cure is the total replacement of blood with embalming fluid.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2013-10-11 13:19
Know any golfers? Compare our gear OCD with theirs. 'nuff said.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-10-11 14:12
God bless you "Clarnibass" for your reference to the comparative cost of clarinetistry.
Just the other day a colleague of mine had heard a reporter on FOX NEWS take another stab at the "outrageous" cost of military bands and actually brought up the staggering cost of an individual clarinet.
Everything is relative I suppose.
As for the main topic, I side with those who contend that gear making a difference to the PLAYER is gear that is worthwhile.
The only 'problem' out there is that there are people jumping on the bandwagon to sell 'stuff' just to make a living and not out of any true desire to improve anything. It is up to the individual player not to get hoodwinked by some new toy that is merely marketing hype (though these are fortunately for us clarinet players, a very small market, at a bare minimum).
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2013-10-11 14:35
My repair tech made an interesting comment yesterday. The reason why clarinets come with such a poor setup and tend to be overhauled immediately after purchase by a tech (by professional players), is because the market for these instruments is largely focused on parents of teens and teens themselves, who cannot make an informed decisions. All they are looking for is a pretty instrument, with no glue showing or imperfection. He was saying how you can't expect to seat a pad with barely enough glue to float it into the correct position.
I can't tell you how many people I know who's parents picked their horn out for them and gave it as a gift.
I think this leads to a problem where a student might be playing on a sub-optimal horn for many years to come, even if they choose to pursue music more professionally through college.... So they start looking to fix the problems of a bad decision made many years before.
I think the inclusion of a pretty barrel and bell go a long way in swaying a customer, parents and young students alike.... The Bliss beginner clarinet looks cool, and my own student felt bad for not getting THAT model. (I much prefer the Selmer beginner clarinet she owns anyways)
This all leads to my number 1 observation. Music students, who can barely play the full range of their instruments, who don't even realize their B/E pads leak constantly, who don't even care or know what a balanced reed is, and play Tosca clarinets, with Backun barrel and bell. THIS is the number one moment I go "wait.... really?" The student will say "it really opens up my sound" or "i think the bell really makes my B ring!".... I think equipment for many is a placebo, and for many it's not. I simply believe the market takes advantage of many.
If you are a professional choosing an equipment modification it seems very different than a student who's been told, by a manufacturer, that their sound is going to improve with new modification. I have to call into question if students are actually more comfortable playing on that equipment or if they just wanted it to look pretty.
As far as the wood flute head-joint goes... my friend would be the first to admit it sacrifices projection, but in chamber music he blends better than most any flute I have heard.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-10-11 14:42
Well, Paul, not everyone is motivated by the altruistic goal of improving things. Most of us, who do not receive a regular paycheck for playing the clarinet, have to make a living somehow.
I'm certainly not defending anyone who makes false claims or attempts to "hoodwink" any musician. But vendors have to sell things in order to feed themselves and their families. And as long as clarinetists continue to believe that certain products somehow improve their playing, those products will continue to be sold.
Be skeptical, do your own thorough testing, and make your own decisions.
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2013-10-11 15:38
> Well, Paul, not everyone is motivated by the altruistic goal of
> improving things. Most of us, who do not receive a regular
> paycheck for playing the clarinet, have to make a living
> somehow.
>
> I'm certainly not defending anyone who makes false claims or
> attempts to "hoodwink" any musician. But vendors have to sell
> things in order to feed themselves and their families. And as
> long as clarinetists continue to believe that certain products
> somehow improve their playing, those products will continue to
> be sold.
>
> Be skeptical, do your own thorough testing, and make your own
> decisions.
I believe Mr. Spiegelthal is trying to say.......caveat emptor.
Which is good advice when making any purchase.
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
Post Edited (2013-10-11 15:39)
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Author: marcia
Date: 2013-10-11 16:39
>Oboes, flutes, and bassoons; what do they have?
Flautists can spend many dollers on gold plated lip plates, gold plated head joints, I know a bassoonist who was 'test driving" a $900 bocal. And then there are string players who will pay a huge amount of money for the right bow. So we are not the only ones with GAS, but perhaps we have it more acutely than others. 
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