 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2013-08-09 02:17
Maybe it is me, having played with a drummer in wedding bands for so long.
Tonight I rehearsed with a conductorless wind octet that hasn't played in 2 months, but the same folks have played together for the last 4 years.
At tonights rehearsal, every movement dragged. In a Minuet, the the horns set the tempo in the Trio, but everybody came late and in mm=8-12 slower.
Gak!
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2013-08-09 07:55
"We're slowing down"
"No we're not"
"We're dragging"
"No we're not"
Been on both sides of that conversation.
Take a metronome to rehearsal.
Agree a tempo. Play a few ticks on the metronome.
Play a bit.
When you stop, check the metronome again.
The metronome often seems to have sped up - especially if someone has a difficult bit.
Part of the problem is that if a group has played together regularly, they get useed to the way it sounds, even if wrong. It sometimes needs someone independent (who's musical opinion you all respect) to critique you as you rehearse, as a conductor of a wind band or orchestra would.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-08-09 13:07
"You always want to play too fast."
"No, that's the marked tempo. We started right but [you dummies] keep slowing down."
"Well, you're just showing off. Have some consideration for the rest of us, who can't keep up with you."
Silently: "How can I soar like an eagle when I'm chained to turkeys?" [sound of teeth grinding]
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-08-09 14:11
I've found that in every group I work with, I play in-tune and everyone else plays out-of-tune. Weird, huh?
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-08-09 16:26
You all need to drink more beer when you rehearse so you don't notice. Then it won't bother any of you. :-)
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: davyd
Date: 2013-08-09 18:06
Some years ago, the wind section of the orchestra was tasked with putting together the Gounod Little Symphony, working on its own while the conductor worked with the strings.
Someone suggested that if things went sufficiently well without the conductor that we could Orpheus Chamber Orchestra the piece. Where else can the name of an ensemble become a verb? Is this a great activity or what?
The piece is more of a challenge than it seems like it should be, so we did indeed perform under the conductor's direction, even though we had only one rehearsal with him.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2013-08-09 23:01
Thanks for the Good Responses, and Also for the Other Ones.
My problem is that, when the tempo drags, I fixate on it and the rest of my playing degenerates.
I think dragging is what comes from never, ever sight-reading with good players.
We did the metronome thing before our last concert, and it really annoyed everybody else. But, it did make us play entire movements without the tempo flagging. 8^)
20 years ago I was in a trio that had 2 rules: never rehearse and never stop. The other two players were excellent readers and we had no rhythm issues. Then the two of them had a fight and never spoke to each other again, a predictable graduation ritual for some.
But, the current group has performed the Gounod just fine thanks without a stick waver.
I actually was thinking that only something beyond beer would make me not care, but I haven't had a drink in too long to start again now.
Cheers
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-08-10 01:03
I need to have a couple of beers before I can play tenor sax. Alto and bari are fine without, but tenor is it own animal and requires a mushy embouchure I can't quite manage without beer.
The Gounod is full of stops, starts and tempo changes. Only the amazing virtuosos in Orpheus can bring it off without a conductor.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-08-10 01:54
Ok, there are a couple of things to consider:
ONE: The tempo of a well performed piece of music WILL HAVE EBB and FLOW of RHYTHM!!!! This is part of what brings out harmonic and phrasing nuance (real music doesn't obey the laws of "click track").
TWO: It SHOULD annoy most of the members of ANY group to put out a metronome in rehearsal, because part of ensemble playing is realizing that the rhythm is in the hands of the player "with the ball." You toss it around and it's your job to catch it wherever it is at the moment. Arguing an arbitrary number (like a metronomic marking...... or quartz clock steadiness) is pointless and self-defeating.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-08-10 14:37
Paul -
I disagree. You must walk before you can run. If you, or your ensemble, can't play with metronomic precision, you have nothing to base your ebb and flow on.
Listen to Reginald Kell's Brahms Quintet slow movement. In the florid section, he departs very far from the beat but gives back almost everything he takes, so that the slow 3 pulse is steady.
Mabel Mercer sang WAY behind the beat, but you always know what she was doing. Frank Sinatra's art was almost always in his subtle manipulation of rhythm. What makes it work is the underlying steady heartbeart. Jascha Heifetz and Isaac Stern did the same, of course within the boundaries of taste established by traditional classical music. What they all did was keep a strong underlying beat and work off of it.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-08-10 20:19
I guess we arrive at the same place via a different mode of transportation.
I spent years thinking about a steady beat, or pulse if you were. What exactly makes that inherently musical? Would you pause in front of a tractor an be enthralled by that sound?
For me, what it all boils down to is SYMMETRY. Yes, if one pulse is identical in length to the next, that is symmetrical, but it is also symmetrical (as in the flowing lines of Greek sculpture) to have pulses of gradually larger (or gradually smaller values) follow each other. What you don't want is a set of erratic values that don't really relate to each other in any meaningful way. And to me, THAT is the definition of bad rhythm.
Getting back to the problem outlined in the original post, a common problem with groups comprised of folks that don't play together much or those that have not rehearsed in a while, is that the next voice to enter usually comes in a hair late (this sets up a slower pulse) and may continue to escalate. I am not excusing sloppy playing, I only advocate for the ability to let the music breathe.
Have you ever taken a recording of any piece of music by any top classical performer and set a metronome to it? Yes, that does sound bad doesn't it?
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-08-13 11:57
Ok, I just could not resist any longer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SrZsWelpac
:-)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-08-14 00:44
It's got just one foot, but taps it really steady. My junior high orchestra could have made great use of it.
Ken Shaw
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2013-08-19 08:34
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Ok, I just could not resist any longer.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SrZsWelpac
A portable metronome!
In a past life I played guitar in pub bands with drummers, some good and some bad. The good ones (the musicians!) were able to keep the rhythm steady but still either lay the beat back or bring it forward. So without speeding or up or slowing down they were able to give the impression that a song was relaxed or laid back, or that a song was upbeat and exciting. The bad ones (the misplaced builders) either couldn't keep time or always seemed to be playing behind the rest of the band ("But I'm playing to a click track, how can I be slowing down?" ; "Yes, but you still sound like you're slowing down!")
Playing with metronomic precision doesn't guarantee that the music doesn't drag, it's how you play it that either gives it an edgy, exciting feel, or a dreamy, languorous feel. Two people can play a piece at the same tempo: the one sounds exciting and up; the other sounds boring and down
--------------------------------------
The older I get, the better I was
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2013-08-19 10:05
We worked with a metronome last year, and there was a big increase in rhythmical awareness. This exercise didn't make me popular, though. This is an amateur group, where folks tend to clutch 1) when an entrance has a lot of notes or 2) is up high, or 3) has tricky counting. Everyone thinks they are in shape, but it is difficult to play with other people every week in the summer, something that is critical for players at this level. The core quintet in this group pulled off the Hindemith last year, so are capable of good stuff. We'll all get back on that train in a few weeks. Gosh, I hope.
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