 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2013-08-05 10:23
I am trying to get to grips with the second movement of Poulenc's sonata and was wondering how to play the eighth measure with a throat A followed by a B, throat G#, throat A and back to B
Do you play the B with a side key, or use the normal fingering with all fingers down? The side key is easier but doesn't sound as good as all fingers down, but all fingers down is defeating me to play it quick enough. I'd normally use the side key for a very fast ornamentation like this, but in this case you end up on the B which is not so good
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2013-08-05 12:22
I happen to be looking at that piece now as well. My borrowed music was marked 'side key' there, but listening to Karl Leister on YT, he does it slow enough that going over the break could work as well. What helps that B to speak quickly for me is to hold down the A key with the register key as I go up to the B.
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Author: gkern
Date: 2013-08-05 14:37
Try it keeping the right hand fingers down while fingering the throat tones, using the right hand pinkie key for the B.
Gary K
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-08-05 15:00
JonTheReeds wrote:
> ...but all fingers down is defeating
> me to play it quick enough.
What actually happens when you finger the turn with long B? Which B (L or R) are you trying to use? Where in the turn are you getting stuck? How fast are you playing the movement?
Karl
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-08-05 15:33
It's a slow movement. The ornament must be played in the same mood -- romantically and not fast. In fact, you should probably stretch it out a little.
Touch the throat Ab key as far up on your left index finger as you can and just wiggle the end of the finger to go back and forth between A and G#.
You can open the throat A key while you're on the B.
Move only your thumb and left index, middle and ring fingers, leaving everything else down. Try keeping your left ring finger down, too.
You can also play the B with the A key open and lift your right index finger to go down to A. The intonation and tone color aren't great, though.
Keep your finger movement to a minimum. Look in a mirror and pretend you're trying to hide the whole thing from someone who's watching. Nice, relaxed and microscopic.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-08-05 20:27
First off, the problem of making the transition between A and B (with normal fingering) has to be addressed. It's not essentially a fingering problem, but rather a problem of the different resistances of the two notes. (You may have a fingering problem too, but that yields relatively easily to practice.)
But -- notice that if you can't make the transition because you're not handling the difference in resistance, you may be continuing to blame your finger technique unnecessarily. (That's not where the problem is.)
I've written extensively elsewhere on the BBoard of how that transition may be facilitated by the technique of support. Essentially, you play the A quieter than you're blowing, and then, by unconsciously controlled relaxation of the diaphragm, that stronger blowing is immediately available for the B. I'm not going to rehearse all of that again in this post.
Secondly, whatever the speed of the movement, Poulenc wrote the decoration 'fast'. It's silly to say that: (1) the movement is a 'slow' one; (2) so it's romantic; (3) therefore you should play what Poulenc wrote slower than he wrote it.
Surely we need to find how to play what's written.
Most audiences find the movement to be both strange and powerful. The solo introduction sets the scene, using the same four hypnotic notes that occur, in another order, in the oboe sonata. Use your knowledge of French to obey 'court' and 'long' on the pauses, by the way. Why do so few people do this? (Karl????)
To my mind -- notice that I'm not saying, as another has, that it IS as I'm about to describe it -- it may speak of the sort of experience that you've had in the past, and either regret the loss of, or regret in some other way. The heading of the first movement: Allegro Tristamente -- 'Happy sadly' -- springs to mind.)
I find that the movement works best when I, and the pianist, think of it as a slow, sad, nostalgic waltz. That involves the pianist playing the second quaver of the bar slightly closer to the downbeat. So the first crotchet of the bar is slightly short, and has a privileged, dance-like presence.
That way, the third beat of the bar can have a slight lift, and so can accommodate the fast gesture Poulenc so explicitly writes.
Tony
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-08-06 00:24
Tony Pay wrote:
> Most audiences find the movement to be both strange and
> powerful. The solo introduction sets the scene, using the same
> four hypnotic notes that occur, in another order, in the oboe
> sonata. Use your knowledge of French to obey 'court' and
> 'long' on the pauses, by the way. Why do so few people do
> this? (Karl????)
>
Is this a reaction to something I wrote? I'm not sure what it was.
As to the question, I have no idea. I guess their French vocabulary isn't up to it (and don't feel like looking the words up)?
Karl
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-08-06 07:06
>> Is this a reaction to something I wrote? I'm not sure what it was. >>
No, it was a reaction to something the 'other Karl' played:-)
Tony
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-08-06 11:48
Oops! I missed the connection completely. He probably knows what the French means, though.
Karl (not Leister)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-08-06 12:16
I think the way this works is: you need to ask yourself WHY Poulenc wrote those French words. My own answer is: it's to enable you to make the sound of the 'long' A signify something.
What something?
It could be one of several things; but the chord underneath, as well as the previous and dramatic A/G# gesture surely influences the choice. For me, those things determine the expression to be something like 'anguish'; and so I hang on to the A, using an extremely intense sound quality, until I feel the point has been made.
So, there's an interim step you have to aks yourself: WHAT is the musical intention?
Then you play out of that.
If you skip that step, it feels unnatural to hold 'just another A' -- and so many people don't do it.
That's to play superficially, according to me.
Tony
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2013-08-06 13:34
Happy/Sadly - Reminds me of a wonderful story I heard Jack Brymer tell when he was giving a master class on the sonata.
He and some other musicians were rehearsing the Poulenc sextet at a summer school or something and at some point as they were playing in through the door burst Poulenc himself crying " Ah non, non fortissimo, fortissimo!" So the pianist (who I think Brymer said was Lamar Crowson) pointed out "It's marked pianissimo there actually, M. Poulenc" to which Poulenc replied "Oui, mais fortissimo!"
Vanessa.
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2013-08-07 02:34
FWIW, this examining, questioning, postulating etc. of what is going on really interests me to help me perform. I don't have the resources to formally study this, so I greatly appreciated what has been volunteered here. I wonder that, like public book and poetry readings, there might be some place to go where the great scores and pieces would be discussed and analyzed (and personal anecdotes added) as done here. Again, thanks.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2013-08-07 06:16
Tony- JonThe Reeds was asking about bar 8, where the "fast" bit happens between the first and second beat. So wouldn't you your waltz idea would mean that he'd have to play this figure even faster than Poulenc wrote it?
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2013-08-07 07:39
<What actually happens when you finger the turn with long B? Which B (L or R) <are you trying to use? Where in the turn are you getting stuck? How fast are you <playing the movement?
<
<Karl
I use my little right finger for the long B
What happens when I go from A/B/A/G#/A/B is quite simple: my fingers can't move fast enough! Squeaks, parumphs and silence ensue
I'm all for practising finger transitions, especially across the break, to increase smoothness and speed, but the trill keys are there for a reason and I was wondering if this is a situation where a professional clarinet player would use them
It seems though that in this situation (and especially as you end up on a sustained B which doesn't sound so good on a trill key) full fingering is required and not the use of the side trill key. Perhaps this is a good opportunity for me to finally nail perfect rapid runs across the break; I'm okay going in one direction but going backwards and forwards across the break at speed still defeats me
As for the court/long thing, I was thinking that the court pause was a taster - you then go away and come back on the long pause for the really thing, a sort of long, hot, French summer sort of vibe with the heatwaves pulsing in the air
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-08-07 09:07
Liquorice wrote:
>> So wouldn't you your waltz idea would mean that he'd have to play this figure even faster than Poulenc wrote it?>>
Yes, perhaps. But I wasn't really intending the waltz idea to apply fully to that bit: rather to when the main tune starts on throat A, with the octave bass and RH? quavers in the piano. (All my music is in store ATM -- moving house...:-( or :-)
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-08-07 09:20
>> Perhaps this is a good opportunity for me to finally nail perfect rapid runs across the break; I'm okay going in one direction but going backwards and forwards across the break at speed still defeats me.>>
If you play:
(1) A___BA___BA___BA____B dotted, and then
(2) B___AB___AB___AB____A dotted;
....you may see that your fingers don't need to go DOWN fast in (1) -- they just need to come up again immediately; and
...in (2) they just need to go back down immediately to where they were.
I still think that the problem is more in handling the different resistances. (It certainly is with me.)
Tony
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2013-08-07 10:05
Tony Pay wrote:
> (1) A___BA___BA___BA____B dotted, and then
When you say 'dotted', do you mean
'A' dotted quaver, then 'B' semiquaver, then repeat
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-08-08 17:46
JonTheReeds wrote:
> Karl; wrote:
> <What actually happens when you finger the turn with long B?
> Which B (L or R) <are you trying to use? Where in the turn are
> you getting stuck? How fast are you <playing the movement?
> <
> <Karl
>
>
> I use my little right finger for the long B
>
> What happens when I go from A/B/A/G#/A/B is quite simple: my
> fingers can't move fast enough! Squeaks, parumphs and silence
> ensue
>
I'd suggest that in solving this problem, more self-analysis might help. If you do the passage fairly slowly and pay close attention, you may well find that the squeaks tend to happen more often than not over the same interval or intervals and rarely if ever at other parts of the turn. Next is to try to figure out why. If you can narrow the problem to something more specific than fingers that "can't move fast enough," you may find that, as Tony suggests, it isn't a matter of finger *speed* so much as it is some particular hurdle that, if you can clear it, will make the passage more playable.
One way I've gotten at this kind of problem is to begin playing the passage much too slowly and increasing the tempo at reasonable increments until I just begin to feel uncomfortable. That's the tempo point at which the analysis can take place. Play too slowly and the problem never appears. Too fast and it goes by too quickly to isolate.
Tony has described the issue of handling different resonances, which is an important part of negotiating the passage (and ones like it).
For me, I find that the problem in this and similar passages is my slight discomfort in reaching for the right-hand B lever, which can occasionally cause either my rh ring finger or index finger to pull off its hole. In this particular case, I don't think I'd feel comfortable, either, using lh B, so I have to be very aware of my rh hand finger positions. I do leave my right hand in place with all the fingers down while I play the A and G# - it helps with the resistance difference and improves the sound of the throat notes while minimizing the likelihood of opening rh 1 or 3.
Being able to manage this without the trill key is a worthwhile thing to work on. You're right in not wanting to end on the throat version of B, and trying to use the trill key on the one in the middle of the turn could cause its own problems in terms of pulling your hand out of position (not to mention the difference in sound with the last note if played with the long fingering).
Karl
Post Edited (2013-08-08 22:27)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-08-12 09:05
Karl wrote a phrase:
>> ...which can occasionally cause either my rh ring finger or index finger to pull off its hole.>>
...that made me think again about this.
I've noticed -- especially in practising period basset clarinet and bassethorn, which both require special hand positions for certain passages -- that I am less routinely accurate as the years pass. Sometimes a note fails to speak, and it requires a little experiment to determine exactly which hole isn't being quite covered. I don't remember that being so evident when I was younger.
Although obviously one's motor skills gradually deteriorate, I wonder whether the slight loss of elasticity of the skin of one's finger pads with age may also contribute. Like the O-rings in the Challenger shuttle disaster, fingertips need to mould to the rigid components that they are sealing in order to be effective.
Perhaps regular application of skin cream may help? I'll certainly try it, though a controlled experiment is a bit difficult to set up as it's only an intermittent problem.
Anyone else?
Tony
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-08-12 12:58
Well, for me the problem, when it is a problem, involves a combination of shortish fingers and mildly pinched nerves in both my right elbow and my right shoulder. RH B wasn't as much an issue when I was younger, either, but the impinged nerves are caused by arthritic degeneration that wouldn't have been present 30 or 40 years ago. I can and do use rh B/E when I need to. It's just not the easiest key on the clarinet for me to reach. It's interesting that Tony mentions basset clarinet and basset horn. I have a good deal more trouble with this on a bass clarinet.
Karl
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2013-08-30 16:07
Thanks for everyone's advice
I've been practising the passage with a metronome, straight and with a dotted rhythm, and it's starting to come together. I'm concentrating on keeping the airflow constant and supporting the B, while trying to be as relaxed as possible and keeping movement to a minimum
It seems to be working so just need to keep the practice up
Tony - do you have a link to your post on how "that transition may be facilitated by the technique of support"?
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-09-03 08:33
JonTheReeds wrote:
>> Tony - do you have a link to your post on how "that transition may be facilitated by the technique of support"?>>
It's explained in various depths in a couple of very long threads in the 'Keepers' section; but it might be worth saying something extra about it here. (By the way, beware of thinking that the subject is complex just because the discussions are lengthy. It turns out that it's simple enough, and experiential enough, that children can get it very quickly; it's only adults that seem to need their preconceptions dismantling.)
Here's my something extra:
Playing on classical instruments (in addition to my modern ones) as I do, I've sometimes reflected that excellent players of the simpler instruments of the past MUST have understood, at least implicitly, the necessity of support for acceptable playing. And by 'implicitly' here, I don't mean that they could necessarily explain it, but that they embodied its use in their playing -- much as we might say that a shark 'implicitly understands' the hydrodynamics of fast swimming.
What is it about early instruments that is different? Well, their scales are much more uneven in response, so that adjacent notes may sometimes have significantly different resistances or resonances. Music that demands a smooth legato passage between such notes requires the player to overcome that unevenness.
Moreover, the unevenness is inherent in the instrument design. True, some old instruments are better than others in this regard, and the choice of reed setup makes an important difference; but the developments of keywork and so on that led to the modern clarinet were necessary for the ALMOST complete eradication of the problem.
And it's that ALMOST that worries us today. A modern clarinet is SPOZED to be even in response, they say.
But we don't really think that of a classical clarinet. We learn to overcome the problem; and I say that we learn to overcome it in part by using the technique of support.
The details of that are spelled out in the threads 'Support' and 'Blowing Terminology'; but here is an overview:
In order to handle the transition between a note that is relatively free-blowing and a note that is more resistant (like the transition between your throat A and the B above the break) the second note requires more air-pressure to sound equal. And that increase of air pressure needs to be delivered SUDDENLY.
The point about the technique of support is that it delivers the air-pressure to the clarinet reed by using the imbalance between two opposing forces, one of BLOWING and one of SUPPORT, rather than by using just one force of BLOWING. (Notice that this terminology may be at odds with your own use.) That means that the sudden increase of pressure can be achieved by a RELAXATION of the opposing muscle, the diaphragm. And because muscles can relax much faster than they can flex, this provides the sudden change of pressure we require.
The other wrinkle, that isn't generally appreciated, but which makes the technique simple in practice, is that this relaxation of the diaphragm cannot be felt directly. We therefore learn its use by straightforward practice and listening, during which short process the legato becomes even 'as if by magic'.
I hope you enjoy your own discovery of this seeming miracle as much as I did mine:-)
Tony
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2013-09-05 19:18
This movement always reminds me of someone reading a "Dear John" letter, dwelling on the contents of it, painfully recalling the love felt, and mourning the "what might have been." At the end, I imagine there was a glimmer of hope: he met someone new or the object of his lost affection reconsidered. I think pouring these kinds of emotions into the piece helps with the tempo, dynamics, phrasing...in others words, just the expression of the movement itself.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-09-05 19:58
Tony -
The Clarinet Sonata was one of Poulenc's last works, probably written in 1963. While your remarks on the unevenness of scale on period clarinets are very interesting and informative, I don't understand how they apply to the passage that's the subject of this thread.
Also, please post the links to the two strings in the Keepers section.
To Glenn - I suggest that you combine Tony' two Keepers postings and then add his remarks here to it.
Ken Shaw
Post Edited (2013-09-05 19:58)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-09-06 05:47
Ken Shaw wrote:
>> The Clarinet Sonata was one of Poulenc's last works, probably written in 1963. While your remarks on the unevenness of scale on period clarinets are very interesting and informative, I don't understand how they apply to the passage that's the subject of this thread.>>
Well, I thought you would; but let me spell it out for you.
Over the years, there has been a move by manufacturers and players towards towards the view that evenness of response in a clarinet is a deal-breaker.
Sometimes, though, an instrument that is to a degree uneven has other qualities that may make it preferable to another instrument that is initially more tractable. That can be true of instruments like early Buffets, on which I have also recently been playing in Falstaff at Glyndebourne.
I'd say that though evenness of response is very important, with practice one can live with some degree of unevenness more than is immediately apparent to an inexperienced player, and that it's an advantage to be possessed of the technical ability to do so. One can even reach the stage where the unevenness is rendered unnoticeable -- the instrument seems to 'get better' with practice:-) And I know this because of my experience with even earlier (or should I say, UNeven earlier) instruments.
Now, a modern, even super-even Boehm clarinet probably still has an unevenness of response between throat A and the B above, and it's THAT unevenness that is the subject of this thread.
There are other, less noticeable unevennesses too: I've often found it initially startling to play a modern reform-Boehm clarinet because of the freeness of the D one ledger-line down in the treble clef. That's because the note is vented much more effectively than on the standard Boehm. But we don't notice that 'our' D is slightly stuffy until encountering its opposite, because we've learned to compensate for it.
So my intended message was: don't despair, you can learn to play A/B smoothly, and the technique for doing so -- the technique of support -- will help other parts of your playing too. There's also the bonus down the line, when you're a more advanced player, that you may be able to appreciate the possible value of instruments you might initially be tempted to reject.
Finally, you're joining a long tradition of players who have overcome much more challenging but nevertheless SIMILAR problems.
>> Also, please post the links to the two strings in the Keepers section.>>
I posted their titles; that should be enough, I think.
>> To Glenn - I suggest that you combine Tony' two Keepers postings and then add his remarks here to it.>>
I beg your pardon???
Tony
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-09-06 12:35
Tony Pay wrote:
> Sometimes, though, an instrument that is to a degree uneven has
> other qualities that may make it preferable to another
> instrument that is initially more tractable. That can be true
> of instruments like early Buffets, on which I have also
> recently been playing in Falstaff at Glyndebourne.
>
It's a little tangential to this thread, but I'm curious about what would make an early Buffet an attractive instrument to play. How early? Falstaff premiered in 1893. Are the ones you're using from that period or older (I think the earliest Klose-Boehm Buffets date from a half century earlier)?
Karl
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-09-06 18:41
[tangent]I had an 1889 Bb and a 1906 A.
The instruments are quite vivid and responsive, and will disappear almost to nothing without losing focus or presence. I was trying for that sort of vividness, which early recordings indicate to me was a characteristic of operatic wind playing in Italy at the time. It's anyway what you want from Verdi.
You have to be careful to avoid a rather metallic sound in the chalumeau notes C, B, Bb, A and Ab (that's actually something that happens in bad English clarinet playing too) but you can make it work with a little effort.
I suspect the instruments were designed to play at a lower pitch than A=440 (our choice) and had been shortened; so I had to fill up some toneholes and use different barrels.[/tangent]
Tony
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-09-07 01:11
My 1908 Buffet Bb/A pair, with no sign of shortening, plays at exactly 440. The tone is lighter and sweeter than my main instruments, R13s from the mid-70s. As Tony says they're easy to play soft without losing focus.
Kalmen Opperman, who worked on many clarinets from that era, said that they need barrels that are longer (~69 mm.) and differently tapered than current designs. He made a barrel for me that dramatically improved both instruments, at least to his and my ears. I haven't noticed any metallic quality, at least with Kal's barrel.
Tony - Can you give examples of early recordings that illustrate the playing you speak of?
Ken Shaw
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2013-09-09 16:12
Tony - thanks to a previous post of yours I have practising opposing muscles in the abdomen and so the B over the break pops out nicely. It's only when I play backwards and forwards across the break that my fingers get tangled up. A metronome and dotted rhythms are slowly sorting that out
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The older I get, the better I was
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