 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: alanporter
Date: 2013-05-27 01:07
Someone has told me that automotive Automatic Transmission Fluid is a better key oil than the stuff sold in music shops. Can anyone verify this ? And why would that be ?
tiaroa@shaw.ca
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Author: gwie
Date: 2013-05-27 07:55
Don't know, but I wouldn't want to get automatic transmission fluid in contact with my skin, even accidentally.
I like Dr. Henderson's "Doctor Syntek" key oil. It comes in a 15mL bottle with a needle dropper. Use it very sparingly as it is extremely effective, and lasts a long time (I oil maybe once a year).
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-05-27 13:05
Some repair techs use a brew made with transmission fluid. I would find it hard getting where I want it without disassembling the instrument. Most times I use synthetic grease, but I apply it while assembling the instrument. I recommend that my customers don't lubricate there own instruments since the product I use will last for years and is better than most "key oils" found in stores. I assume that the key oils in stores are basically light mineral oils. Not bad and easier to apply, but not as long lasting. For a good synthetic key oil that comes in a needle bottle, I recommend Hetman medium for clarinets.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-05-27 13:10
I've used 3 in 1 oil all my life, works just fine. I've never had a problem. Just make sure you get the dust off of the keys before oiling. Either use a dry clean small paint brush or compressed air, that works great to clean off any dust.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: alanporter
Date: 2013-05-27 20:43
Thanks everyone. Perhaps I will leave the A.T.F. in my truck and boat. I have often used engine oil, 10W30, without any apparent problem.
tiaroa@shaw.ca
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2013-05-27 22:19
I've always used Holton Key Oil and had no problems with it. It functions like Singer Sewing Machine oil.
If your talking about Key Lubricant then Tom Ridenour's synthetic
Ultimax pivot & Roller Lubricant is excellent.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2013-05-27 22:50
The oil required depends on the exact key function.
A point screw is much better serviced with a relatively thick oil or even a grease whereas a rod screw should use a lighter oil.
However in the end any oil is better than none and regular applying of say 3 in 1 is a perfectly reasonable approach for the clarinet player.
The repair professional should naturally select the most appropriate lubricant for the job in hand.
I work on woodwind ranging from piccolos to contra bassoons and use a range of at least 4 oils and 2 greases to give optimum results on that variety.
But again 3 in 1 or similar regularly applied by a typical clarinet player will produce quite acceptable results.
And a spot of thickish oil on the spring latches and also that (or better still grease) on anywhere that a flat spring bears on a metal plate is well worth doing.
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2013-06-01 12:26
(Disclaimer - I sell a number of NASA spec. lubricants in various viscosities)
Although other lubricants can be used for years without ill effects all petroleum products will evaporate over time and leave a corrosive sludge of oil and fine metal particles caused by normal key action in articulation points and on rods which increase wear.
The old standard lubricant used by technicians was Nye Clock Oil which used to be made from the special oil in a sperm whale's head supposed to used in a bulbous organ for sonar sound wave detection made by whale sounds. This special oil was copied by synthetic chemists and is a basic model of many synthetic lubricants. Nye Clock oil now is a petroleum based product.
The rigors of outer space dictated developing lubricants that would not evaporate in the rigors of space vacuum and needed to keep a constant viscosity under harsh temperature extremes between boiling heat and frigid cold. A new generation of lubricants with special attributes was fostered by the NASA space flight program which have filtered down into our everyday life to replace petroleum based products.
Many of the NASA spec. lubricants will lubricate better than petroleum based oils and greases, will not evaporate, remain at constant viscosity in temperature extremes, contain anti-corrosion properties , and form molecular bonds with the metal to lubricate more efficiently with lower shear characteristics.
Technicians know best about what products to use when repairing instruments and good advice has been given for not over oiling an instrument where oil will weep out and penetrate the wood around posts which diminishes the strength of the wood at these points. Many, many technicians have switched to synthetic oils and lubricants because of their superior characteristics.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.
www.chededevillemp.com
Post Edited (2013-06-01 12:29)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-06-01 13:05
I used Nye Clock Oil for years. It was very thin and was pulled in instantly by capillary action. Kal Opperman told me that after sperm whale oil became rare and expensive, it was made from the oil of bottle-nosed dolphins.
The whale/dolphin oil went rancid after about a year, and I didn't like the petroleum-based version, so I switched to The Doctor's products and have never looked back.
Ken Shaw
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Author: BobD
Date: 2013-06-02 15:38
Everyone has opinions about lubricants and some are based on fact while others are based on belief. Some have said(years ago) that 3 in 1 oil was vegetable based and not good. Some have advocated auto transmission lube. Some advocate oil containing teflon. For sure the lube has to get to where it is needed and has to stay there. Long ago I started using "Motor Honey" and it seems to do the job. I also use various others.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2013-06-03 12:48
Most of the old clarinets I've overhauled have had pivot screws and other metal-on-metal connections clogged up with gummy old oil from which the volatile fractions evaporated long ago, mixed with miscellaneous environmental crud (dust? spider legs? cat fur?), but de-clogging hasn't been a serious problem. The stuff comes off easily. I take out the screws, clean those off with a soft cloth, and clean out the holes with a pipe-cleaner (the old-fashioned, all-soft kind, not the kind with the metal twists). A surprising amount of black, brown, or greenish gunk comes out of the holes.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Burt
Date: 2013-06-03 22:24
I've had success with the teflon sold for use on bicycle chains.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-06-08 14:39
AFAIK the Teflon oil for bike chains is intended to dry out to a Teflon film that lubricates without allowing so much gritty road dust to stick to the area.
I don't think this road grit issue is significant for clarinets! And such a dry film is not the ideal for damping noise, which is a major function of the oil in musical instruments. It is probably good at keeping water from steel pivots though.
I agree with Omar in that modern synthetic lubricants are far superior for our purpose. These are available from Alisyn (Aerospace Lubricants Incorporated), Doctors Products, and Hetman, to name three.
It is rather unlikely that non-synthetic oils sold by music shops (and supplied with instruments) re anything but quite inferior products, with profit being the main determinant of choice of oil.
As for "3 in 1": One of those "3"used to be listed as furniture polish. I used to be involved with servicing sewing machines. Sometimes the machines would be really slow, because the bearings were clogged up with a gummy mess, rather like half-set varnish. In every case the user had been using 3 in 1. Presumably the solvent and very light lubricant dried out, leaving the other muck. Applied repeatedly there is eventually so much muck that the pivot seizes. I also see this on some neglected instruments. With light spring tensions and relatively large bearing surfaces, this is even more of an issue for musical instruments. For this reason I cannot recommend 3 in 1. But perhaps they have changed the formulation since then???
Many automotive oils contain all manner of additives to deal with the specific environments in the demanding and hostile environments in an engine. IMO they should not be used unless it is known that none of these additives leave a gummy mess when the lubricant component eventually evaporates.
Finally, sometimes one sees that oil in clarinet pivots has gone quite black. The sort of wear needed to cause this from metal dust is unlikely to occur in a clarinet. Sometimes there is even black tarnish on the silver plating of the keys and pillars only adjacent to where the oil is.
I suspect that is because of the use of a lubricant that contains a sulphur compound as an additive. Sulphur reacts with copper (in the base metal) and silver (in the plating) to make black sulphides. And I suspect that these are quite abrasive materials!
The moral of all this: Use lubricants that have been chosen for the purpose by experts in the field - tribologists. Totally synthetic lubricants without additives seem to fit the bill admirably.
Post Edited (2013-06-08 14:43)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-06-09 06:00
I have never used Hetman. But I know he is clued up enough to have done the homework on what is suitable fro instruments. Many technicians use them.
I use the two viscosities from Alisyn, and also a considerably higher viscosity (and a grease) from Kraus, which is likely to be Alisyn or Hetman. Kraus sells only to technicians.
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2013-06-10 12:15
(Disclaimer- I sell NASA spec Key Oils and Greases of various viscosities)
Hetman does sell various types of synthetic oil for specified instrument types. As noted by technicians before they use different types and viscosities for various lubricating needs on different areas of the clarinet.
A problem with many key oils is that they are sold as dropper bottle or perhaps with a plastic or metal needle tip that delivers a drop that is too large for needed oiling and the tip length is not long enough to fit into tight areas while the keys are still on the clarinet. The drop size is often too large and some of the oil may leak out of articulation points and run down posts and onto the wood. Many players also oil too often.
For oils without a long fine needle tip I will pour a few drops onto a saucer and dip a toothpick into the oil, invert it, and a tiny drop will form as the oil runs down the toothpick and this is all the oil that you need at each oiling point.
Alisyn is a brand name for specified use oiling products made by Aerospace Lubricants in Columbus Ohio. This company also makes literally hundreds of lubricants for NASA and the military to their specifications. I have researched many of these NASA spec. and military spec. lubricants and sell selected lubricants not in the Alisyn product line.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
www.chedevillemp.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-06-10 12:54
Omar -
I use a miniature rat-tail file, which I dip slightly into the oil. I lift it, wait until a small tear-drop collects on the tip and touch it to the oiling point. If I get a big drop, I start over.
Ken Shaw
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2013-06-10 13:36
There will not be a consensus on what to use. Each of us has a preference. All I can tell you is I use a light grease with Teflon on the pivots and clock oil (non synthetic) on the rods.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2013-06-10 15:33
Luke Bakaan, bassoonist with the Spokane Symphony makes up his own goose grease for key lube and gives it away in 1-oz bottles (along with a very good screwdriver) in his classes on bassoon maintenance. It is a 50/50 mix of 3:1 oil and STP (at your car parts shop).
I've got a bottle of it, and it promises to be a lifetime supply (but, hey, I'm old).
Bob Phillips
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2013-06-10 20:37
There are serious scientists (Tribologists) working in the field of lubrication and lubrication properties with sets of analytical data from sophisticated testing. Whatever works for you is fine but in the 21st. century home brew is NOT the best. There are about a thousand reasons not to use 3&1 Oil and STP as a key lubricant. If scientific lubrication knowledge is available and documented I for one will use it.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
www.chedevillemp.com
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Author: sowilson
Date: 2013-06-11 14:12
Brass players are big users of Hetman lubricants, so besides WWBW and Amazon, add Dillions and the Hornguys to your list.
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