 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarii
Date: 2013-06-06 01:57
i attended a freshman university workshop recently. the student tuned carefully to concert "a". the composition she played was in b-flat major. the throat tones and upper register were very noticeably sharp. i"m thinking why didn't she pull out and tune to b-flat instead. HERESY! you say.
for 200 years clarinetist have probably tuned to concert "a" after they got invited to play with a string orchestra. we use 7,8,9 fingers to tune to the longest note on the clarinet. our friends the oboes, flutes and bassoons tune to "a" also using only 2 fingers of the left hand.
some say we've tuned to third line "b" because it's in the middle of the range of the clarinet. the assumption must be that "b' is the best note to tune for all the clarinet notes. what nonsense!!! we got ourselves anchored to the most stable note on the clarinet and far removed from the the upper joint unstable notes.
the tuning of the clarinet is disproportional. pulling out or in the barrel effects the top joint far more than the lower joint. probably 3-1. tuning to 3rd line "b" is a disaster waiting to happen. "b'" is slightly flat(think low "e"). so naturally the upper joint will be inherently sharp.
tuning to third line b-flat in my example by pulling out the barrel will noticeably greatly help the throat tones and upper register. but more importantly it will effect the lower joint notes very little. that's because of the disproportionate tuning of the clarinet.
it's time we buried concert "a". instead we should come to our senses and tune to any note-using electronic tuner calibrated to perfect half steps-that will assist our tuning. we should join our oboe,flute and bassoon friends and tune far more with notes of the upper joint. also tune to the key we are playing.
we play far more with the piano than strings. orchestra players probably tune back stage as well.
enough christian suffering guys. anyway why haven't you readers spoken up about this nonsense before!!! paul king u. of michigan 64, n.z.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-06-06 03:03
If this was a solo piece with piano, I can't see why the clarinetist couldn't tune to any pitch he or she wanted. Although I would tend to distrust throat Bb as a tuning note despite the logic of your explanation because it's not necessarily in tune even with the notes immediately surrounding it. But I'm sure a case could be made for one of the notes on the left hand making a better tuning note than long B or C.
The trouble, when you tune in an ensemble is that it really is better for everyone to use the same note - ask an oboist to play an A for strings, an F for trumpets and maybe clarinets, a Bb for trombones, etc..., and you may well get more variety than you bargained for. It's true that in an orchestra the tuning on stage is done as a final check and most if not all the players have already tuned backstage to some kind of electronic device. It's also true that whatever tuning is done before the concert begins needs to be adjusted continually by the players individually to compensate for temperature-related changes as well as the position of the player's notes in the musical texture, so the final tuning before the downbeat is only a starting point, whatever note is used.
If the clarinetist's upper clarion notes were noticeably sharp, she should have noticed it and made the needed adjustments on the fly (through embouchure, "voicing," fingers) until she had a chance to re-tune the instrument. The 12ths on some clarinets are simply too wide in the left hand for comfortable adjustment (if B5 and C6 are in tune, E4 and F4 and probably the rest of the instrument will be very flat with such a clarinet), which is a reason to think about choosing to play on a different clarinet.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-06-06 03:10
Clarii, you're missing the point entirely. The only reason those of us in orchestra's tune to our B, concert A, is because that's the note the oboe plays for the orchestra to tune to. Most of us also have an A bell-gong someplace on the wall for string players and anyone else to tune to before going on stage if they desire. The trick, if you can call it that, is to know how your instrument tunes once your concert A is at A440. I know which notes are sharp or flat when my clarinet tunes to A440. As a matter of fact I've already made what ever adjustment neccessary to have my clarinets play in tune with my concert A at A440. I use a barrel and bell that tunes the whole instruemt as well as possible and I've had notes adjusted with either undercuting or using tape in some holes. On one clarinet I need to have the lower joint pulled out a bit and I use covered fingers on some throat tones when necessary. In an orchestra, we have no choice but to tune to A440 and the reason we play reasonably well in tune is that we learn the tendencies of our instruments and make the necessary adjustment as we play. It really isn't a big deal if you listen and know your instrument.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: clarii
Date: 2013-06-06 03:28
im really talking about piano &cl. playing. i played alot of 2nd cl. in orchestra. and tune to the part. it works. key,range. dont want to know about concert a. i know all the fingering tricks etc. we gotta think opf other ways of tuning!!!
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-06-06 04:00
That happened to me in my high school senior year orchestra concert. We played the opening movement of the Schubert 3rd Symphony http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/24780, and in bar 8 I had the opening solo (on the A clarinet). It went well in rehearsal, but at the performance, as I went up the scale, in my excitement I went more than a quarter step sharp. The principal flutist (who repeated my phrase) sounded a quarter step flat. I made us both look bad.
I was mortified, and from then on (for 52 years now), I've checked my intonation on "short tube" as well as "long tube" notes, an octave above (A 880) and below (A 220), and also 4ths and 5ths above and below A 440.
And even if I'd been playing Bb clarinet, it wouldn't have helped to tune to Bb, which is a long tube note.
There's no rule against tuning notes other than A 440. In fact, I've read that when when Doriot Anthony Dwyer had her final audition as principal flute in Boston, she wowed the committee by doing exactly that. (She held the chair from 1952 until 1990, so she was obviously doing it right.)
Unless you're Robert Marcellus, you will find yourself out of tune once in a while, and I'll bet that even he had some moments in rehearsal when, by Cleveland Orchestra standards, he was out of tune.
Your goal is to hear when you go out and immediately adjust your embouchure to get back as close to in tune as possible. Then at the first rest you adjust the pull-out at the joints.
Intonation is not a setting -- it's a process.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2013-06-06 04:26
Tom Ridenour follows the same line of reasoning as you, Paul, though he arrives at different tuning notes and takes things a bit further. Take a look at this:
http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/tuningBb.htm
I think his approach makes sense for tuning to play with a piano and I have heard other very good professional clarinetists advocate the same approach.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: clarii
Date: 2013-06-06 04:49
jack thanks for the link. my disproportional idea is rewarded. ive never been a great fan of moving the middle joint but will experiment. i find using a 68mm really works for me. the 68 gives more leeway and of course extends the upper joint. i believe leblanc has a pro cl. with extended top joint of sorts. do you know much about this cl. and thanks for really reading ALL my article. paul
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2013-06-06 10:54
Yamaha has the CSG model, with shorter barrels, and a longer top joint. As a string player and oboist, the A is only a reference note to the whole ensemble. There's no need for everyone to ONLY play an A, let alone, only A440. When I'm not the principal oboist, I tune triads, usually D-minor and A-major. Using this as a clarinetist allows me to check the 12ths below each of the B's to make sure they're in tune, as well as a good portion of the instrument.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-06-06 11:23
Tuning with a piano is odd in the first place. Piano uses "tempered" tuning so that all the scales can be reasonably in tune. A melodic instrument, or voice, will naturally want to make such adjustments as "raising the seventh," "lowering the third," etc. which are natural "justified tuning" practices.
Of course, if the clarinet tuning vs. the piano is raising one or more of your eyebrows, chances are that there is more going on. Certainly I would prefer a start with a concert "F" (open G) or at very least arpeggiate whatever note you pick so that you have a better sense of over all tuning.
It's not uncommon for medium grade ensembles to be great at tuning to the note they pick to tune to regularly, only to precede to play sharp (usually "out of tuneness" goes high) on every other note.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2013-06-06 11:54
Tune to open G, then to middle G, by ajusting barrel then middle joint. Now the rest is done by you.
richard smith
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-06-06 12:41
I understand where this is coming from but as a professional I still have to say that if one knows their instument and it's tendencies you won't have the problems that are discribed tuning to a concert A though, I often told my students to tune to a throat tone note as well when playing with a piano just to make sure. And to be well warmed up before tuning.
I know what to expect on my high B or low E or throat tone Bb etc. when I tune to my middle break B bacause I adjusted my clarinet bases on that. If my concert A is a bit flat then I know the higher octave will be a little sharp and visa versa. So I repeat again, if you know your clarinet it doesn't make a difference if you're playing with a piano, a string quartet, a flute or an orchestra. You still have to listen, you still have to know your instrument and you still have to be a little flexible. You can tune to any note if you know the relationship it has to the rest of your clarinet. PS, I've played dozens of recitals with a piano.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2013-06-06 13:16
Here is a chart that may or may not be useful for mapping the tendencies of a clarinet. It might also be helpful in evaluating new equipment.
http://www.clarinet-now.com/support-files/clarinettuningchart.pdf
If I was going to use it, I would probably not just do it once but rather would try a variety of circumstances -- different reeds, different temperatures, locations, altitudes, and so on. After awhile, I think a pattern (or patterns) should emerge.
Someone who is observant, has a decent ear and has played their instrument for a reasonably long time probably won't need it.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-06-06 13:23
Throat notes are variable in pitch on all clarinets and don't provide a solid foundation for a tuning note - you're best listening to the tuning note given and then play that note first and then other notes in the chord of Concert D minor (E minor on Bb clarinet) if a Concert A is given (or Concert Bb Major if a Bb tuning note is given) up and down the instrument instead of tuning to the one note to be sure your clarinet is in tune over the entire register.
I've been told off for doing this by a conductor which isn't really fair as you can't tune to the upper register B only (which is the most stable note) - they said "Just tune to the ONE note!". You have to check the intonation of the whole instrument whenever tuning, not just the one note. String players check their other open strings against each other, so why shouldn't us wind players check other notes?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-06-06 14:18
Chris P wrote:
> String
> players check their other open strings against each other, so
> why shouldn't us wind players check other notes?
>
Often, I check all four notes that correspond to the violin strings. On my instrument I get a pretty accurate read from E4 (their D string) in combination with the A that's given initially and E5. Of course when a separate Bb is given for woodwinds and brass, this isn't useful, especially if you're tuning an A clarinet. It's one of the reasons I don't like getting a Bb, although I understand that tuning trumpets and trombones to an A is nearly useless.
Still, although I can't really argue against the logic of using notes with shorter tubing as tuning pitches, I can't share Paul's sense of urgency about it. Tuning is an ongoing process that changes with environmental conditions and harmonic and melodic context throughout a rehearsal or performance. In the end intonation doesn't so much depend on where I've tuned my instrument as it does on the pitches of the other instruments I'm playing with at any given time. Being in tune means being in the right pitch relationship to the other instruments in a given texture. It doesn't matter an iota if my open G is in tune with a Korg or my B with an A bar if the other instruments I need to be in tune with are tuned differently. The initial A is simply an attempt to start from some common pitch so everyone is within close enough proximity to being in tune to make adjustments manageable throughout a piece's progress.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-06-06 14:47
Some people regard using an electronic tuner when giving the initial tuning note as a bad idea - my arguement is it at leasts gives a constant and grounded note which everyone will start off with. Where they go from there during a rehearsal or performance doesn't matter so long as they use their ears and play in tune with the next person.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2013-06-06 21:34
Something that people haven't mentioned is how to play the note when you tune. A lot of people play softly, tune up perfectly, then wonder why their clarinet is out of tune for the rest of the concert.
I was once told to play loud when you tune and it seems to work for me, but I'd be interested to know how others blow when they tune their clarinets
--------------------------------------
The older I get, the better I was
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-06-06 21:55
JonTheReeds wrote:
> Something that people haven't mentioned is how to play the note
> when you tune. A lot of people play softly, tune up perfectly,
> then wonder why their clarinet is out of tune for the rest of
> the concert.
>
Tuning softly probably does result in flatness at louder dynamics. But the real problem with this scenario isn't how the initial tuning is done but the fact that the player you describe would then simply stay out of tune for the rest of the concert. The fallacy isn't in tuning soft or loud or to this note or that one, it's in thinking that pitch never needs to be adjusted after the tuning note has been played.
Karl
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2013-06-06 22:15
Chris's comment "Some people regard using an electronic tuner when giving the initial tuning note as a bad idea - my argument is it at least gives a constant and grounded note which everyone will start off with. Where they go from there during a rehearsal or performance doesn't matter so long as they use their ears and play in tune with the next person."
And that is exactly how it should be. Can't get much more straight forward than that.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2013-06-06 22:18)
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Author: clarii
Date: 2013-06-06 22:17
hi ron clarii again from nz thanks for your good comments-what a talented guy you are!! im interested in the yamaha csg model. i actually played one once. what do you think yamaha is trying to do with the lengthened upper joint and small barrel joints? pretty radical change for a commercial co.
i assume to stabilize the upper joint for tuning. great idea i think. whats your opinion or anyone elses paul
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-06-06 22:23
The short barrel/long top joint is emulating the proportions of German style clarinets but on a French style instrument. Hence the G in CSG.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-06-07 02:53
Precisely Chris, but also as Rossi puts it on his website, this configuration tends to influence the pitch of the full instrument more than the longer barrel configuration.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: clarii
Date: 2013-06-07 03:38
clarii again yes i agree tune at least at mf. i play my note first. wait a sec. or two and then the piano plays the concert note. its easy to memorize my pitch to the piano to compare-and then adjust. playing at the same time we tend to chase the piano note. works a charm.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2013-06-07 04:00
One thing I do, since I'm not quite at the level Ed P. describes for professional orchestral musicians (I do know my clarinet very well though) is to play several different notes with the given tuning note. If it's an A tuning note, I play Bs and Ds throughout the range of the clarinet (on the Bb clarinet that is; on an A clarinet, I play all Cs and Gs).
When I have a student playing a piece with the piano and I'm running through the piece with my poor piano playing, I have them tune to a concert Bb and have them play Cs and Gs throughout their range.
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Author: donald
Date: 2013-06-07 07:49
Hi Paul,
In the orchestral setting I tune to the concert A, but then immediately check my low B (below middle C) with the Bassoon. If the Oboe keeps going long enough, I'll play my throat F# with the concert A and listen to the interval. THEN when the strings tune I wait until the violins are nearly finished and listen out for someones E string- and check my top line F# (on B flat clarinet, obviously it's all C's and a G etc on my A clarinet).
With a piano I tune to my open G (F or E concert pitch) and then check the G an octave higher. If with a chamber group that involves piano/strings it will depend on the piece/instruments etc.
This is more or less what I AIM to do when tuning- tune against different instruments but also different regions of my instrument. It's not always possible (for instance, sometimes the Oboe player only gives a very quick A, the bassoon player might be obviously out of tune, or I might not get a good note from the strings).
That said, having a good ear, good tone production, and an INSTINCTIVE understanding of my instruments tuning characteristics are the most important factors. I wish i had a better ear, but I get by.
dn
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2013-06-07 12:24
Jack and Richard,
You are right on track as always. Tom R. in his one-page explanation which everyone needs to read states:
"A better method of tuning and one which accomplishes both of our goals is as follows:
1. Tune the concert "F" (open "G") by pulling the barrel.
2. Tune the clarion concert "F" (clarion "G") by pulling the middle section."
Even when I play in wind ensembles that still us Concert Bb for tuning, one can also get a sense by then playing the 5th and adjusting the middle section.
Best regards,
HRL
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-06-07 12:39
That's fine if you've got a well-fitting middle tenon or a clarinet without the articulated C#/G#.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-06-07 13:11
Donald -
You think clarinetists have it hard? Bassoons have 27 fingerings for every note, all of them out of tune. Every bassoon is its own animal, and the player has to figure out which fingerings can and can't be forced to play almost OK on that particular bassoon.
Ken Shaw
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Author: donald
Date: 2013-06-07 19:58
Ken, my best friend is one of NZ's top bassoon players, so yes I am aware. I am really lucky to almost always play with really top notch excellent bassonists, it's quite a pleasure. The comment was only intended to illustrate that my "system" was not always ideal or possible. Also, as sad and harsh as this sounds, there are groups I get to play with every so often where it really does no good at all to try to match the intonation of *all* colleagues with equal ferver....
dn
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Author: clarii
Date: 2013-06-08 00:32
hi hank clarii again. in nz we have a saying "the proofs in the pudding". i tried tuning the clarion g with middle joint in and then pulled it out quite a way. i heard no difference at all. i think middle joint pulling is a meth. and ridenour is wrong too. both gs are in the left hand. and how far does the air go? certainly not to the 4th hole. two solutions 1. compromise tune barrel for throat g and clarion g. 2. extend the upper joint by using as long as barrel as possible. i use a 68mm. i think people use 65mm just out of habit and pull out way too much. 95% of tuning takes place in the upper joint/barrel. lower joint is just along for the ride.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-06-08 00:57
If pulling the middle joint was applicable to all clarinets, then you're buggered if you play a one-piece bodied clarinet or a regular Eb clarinet.
Upper register G issues from the uppermost tonehole on the lower joint, so that will be affected by pulling the middle tenon out. But that could leave you with a wobbly clarinet and you may lose the long Bb as a result.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2013-06-08 04:08
Pulling the middle joint is simply a secondary step to be used if adjusting the barrel until the upper joint is in tune leaves notes in the lower joint sharp. It isn't always necessary. If you don't need it, there's no point in doing it. Paul K., apparently you don't need it. (Actually, I don't either.) That doesn't mean it may not be useful for someone else.
Because pulling out the barrel and using a longer barrel both effectively result in a longer tube, both have essentially the same effect on tuning. However, the longer barrel avoids the gap that pulling out the barrel creates and it won't leave you with a wobbly barrel. Apparently you can get away with a 68mm barrel. For most of us, a barrel that long would make our clarinet hopelessly flat. The ideal length for a barrel is probably the length that leaves you a little sharp when pushed in all the way, i.e., one that you have to pull out a little (say a mm or so) to be in tune. That leaves you some leeway if you find yourself in a situation where you are a little flat. The alternative is to carry a lot of different length barrels.
I skimmed over the other posts in this thread and was surprised to see that apparently no one has pointed out the fact that adjusting the barrel has a proportionally greater effect on "short-tube" notes than it does on "long-tube" notes. I apologize if someone already pointed this out and I missed it. If the effect of adjusting the barrel until the upper joint is relatively in tune leaves the lower joint out-of-tune, pulling out the lower joint can bring down lower joint notes without having a significant effect on the upper joint notes. In other words, using both the barrel and the lower joint (and for low E/clarion B, the bell), gives you more tuning flexibility.
Finally, since "the proof is in the pudding," if you still think that clarion G is an upper joint note, take off your lower joint and finger clarion G as usual. What do you hear?
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: donald
Date: 2013-06-08 04:26
jnk wrote....
"I skimmed over the other posts in this thread and was surprised to see that apparently no one has pointed out the fact that adjusting the barrel has a proportionally greater effect on "short-tube" notes than it does on "long-tube" notes"
This is such a basic fact that I assumed that anybody who played the clarinet already realised this, and this is the reason I always try to tune at least two notes from different regions of the instrument (concert A= long tube note, the top line F# or B natural= middle of the instrument, the one finger F# or open G= short tube)
dn
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Author: clarii
Date: 2013-06-08 04:50
jack i pulled out the middle joint on clarion g and nothing happened. i just took off the lower joint and g# came out. proving that pulling out lower joint does nothing. certainly doesnt lower the pitch at all. try it. myth myth myth!!
paul king
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Author: clarii
Date: 2013-06-08 05:06
jack i realize i was wrong on the joint taking off. however iF the barrel joint is out significantly then pulling out the lower joint has very little influence on the lower joint notes. perhaps the gap is why. try that. paul
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-06-08 05:45
Jack Kissinger wrote:
>
> I skimmed over the other posts in this thread and was surprised
> to see that apparently no one has pointed out the fact that
> adjusting the barrel has a proportionally greater effect on
> "short-tube" notes than it does on "long-tube" notes.
I thought that was Paul K's main point in his original post.
Karl
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Author: clarii
Date: 2013-06-08 09:57
donald my article and ridenours article are all about the barrell only effecting the upper joint. paul
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Author: donald
Date: 2013-06-08 11:15
Pulling at the middle joint has the same effect as moving the tone holes on the lower joint down- making the tube longer for each note. As the bore diameter starts to widen halfway down the lower joint, and the length of tube used for each note will be considerably longer than any upper joint note, a 1mm or 2mm "pull" at the centre joint will have considerably less evident effect on pitch than pulling the same amount at the barrel would have on an upper joint note.
It WILL still however have some effect- and to deny this is denying the basic physics upon which all woodwind instruments operate. To argue that moving the tone holes lower (or making the air collumn for any given note longer) DOESN'T lower pitch is, as NZers are fond of saying, "a nonsense", though to argue that it doesn't make a USEFUL DIFFERENCE is certainly your perogative.
Paul- next time you are in Auckland let's have a tuning session and we can try all these things out. It would be great to catch up with you.
dn
btw- Les Nicholas made a barrel for me, bored to acoustically match my old Backun mouthpiece and my Fesitval B flat. With this barrel/mouthpiece combo I have no need to pull at the centre joint- and to do so makes F/E in the upper register (top of the treble clef) quite flat. However using this barrel with my McClune mouthpiece, or my favourite Lomax, it is very helpful to pull at the centre joint. Obviously clarinet acoustics are not uncomplicated!
Post Edited (2013-06-08 20:39)
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Author: clarii
Date: 2013-06-09 00:38
hi donald as the good lord says(fiddler?) looks like we're the last two standing on this subject- others have moved on. i think the reason you use the middle joint as well as pulling out the barrel so much is you refuse to move on beyond the 65mm barrel. as good jack kissinger(go cardinals!) said the ideal barrel is one just slightly sharp.
actually knowing what we know about how the cl. tunes to itself. id say the longer the barrel one can use without going under pitch as whole is best. we should have 65,66,67 68 mm barrels handy. and according to temp of room, have no problem using the barrel that stays closest to the lower joint as possible. there are just no sacred barrel joints! in your case if you are still sharp on lower joint notes you can pull out that long b. joint a little further. but id doubt if it were necessary. the bottom line is we must extend the upper joint so we have more leeway to adjust.
i still say in terms of tuning all adjustments should happen in the upper joint and the lower joint just goes along for the ride. your barrel - middle joint solution is pretty extreme. pking73@hotmail.com you sounded super in the opus concert and whole concert was outstanding. as the kiwis way "all the best" paul
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Author: donald
Date: 2013-06-09 01:25
I play a 66mm barrel :-]
thanks for the compliment too.
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