 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2013-05-15 17:19
I thought I'd post this again:
http://home.comcast.net/~bmcgar/Etiquette.html
The last time, about 50% of the people liked it, and 50% didn't. Not a bad distribution here.
(Still soliciting contributions.)
B.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2013-05-15 18:26
Stuffy, stuffy, stuffy. Especially the etiquette for audiences. I dislike.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2013-05-15 18:30
All right, so I know how you'd like me to behave at your performances. Hardly applies to every situation, or even most situations.
I think "be awesome and use common sense" is more productive. Lists of rules can make people feel unwelcome.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2013-05-15 19:23
When it comes to etiquette when in the company of strangers, "common sense" isn't that common and "awesomeness" typically is in the eye of the beholder.
Etiquette, which is basically behaving with consideration for others, like music, needs to be taught and learned; it does not arise from fuzzy concepts like "awesomeness" and "common sense."
There are certain etiquette conventions in the world of music performance that finally established themselves as "rules" because they work. But they are not necessarily intuitive, even for those who want to be "awesome" or really do have some sort of "common sense."
You may not like the tone of what I wrote, but which of these wouldn't result in a happier experience for the audience and our colleagues?
I don't see anyone objecting to the content of the page, nor do I read anything about when these things should be excepted for most "serious" performances. I'd like to read about which ones of those items in particular people disagree with, and especially their reasons for doing so. Texting during performances? Parents letting noisy and unruly kids persist in their behaviors in the venue? Cameras flashing in performers' eyes? Players knocking over stands or talking during quiet passages, and so on? Which of these should not become extinct in the concert or recital hall?
Whatever the behavior is, and wherever it's displayed--even at rock concerts or outdoor folk festivals--if it's unnecessarily disturbing or distracting to the audience or performers, it's not nice.
(By the way, I posted the link again because, for the second time in three years, I had to listen to a child scream his little lungs out, first through most of the performance of a Mozart symphony, and then while I was performing with orchestra. Then, at a Lyle Lovett concert last week, I had a hard time of it because four people in my immediate vicinity were texting with their bright-screened mobile hickeys and laughing or talking to each other.)
Have at it.
B.
Post Edited (2013-05-15 20:00)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-05-15 20:26
A few points:
(1) There is a huge difference between arriving less than 45 minutes before a performance and arriving so late that everyone has to shuffle themselves around to make room for you to get to your seat. Planning to arrive 45 minutes early may be commendable, but arriving 30 or even 20 minutes before the downbeat because, for example, of unusual traffic isn't going to inconvenience anyone or cause any but the most paranoid colleague or director to get nervous about your non-arrival (unless you make a habit of not showing up, which is indefensible on its own).
(2) A clarinet goes sharper as it warms up, not flatter.
(3) Whether to warm up onstage or off depends on local custom. Some ensembles all walk in together just before downbeat time. The musicians in other ensembles come on stage as they arrive and warm up in the actual performance environment, which will, hopefully, be different from any backstage warm up area.
(4) I have to assume most of the points under "During the Performance" are meant for amateur ensembles. I don't remember playing in any professional band or orchestra where any of those points of etiquette was breached. If your target here is community and/or school concerts, maybe you should say so.
(5) I like your 2nd point under Etiquette for Audience Members.
(6) The ones about when to applaud are really situation dependent. And if someone at a symphony concert or classical recital violates them no real harm is done to anyone.
(7) I, too, get annoyed by the cougher who seems to save his loudest hacks for the quiet passages or rests - I think most of the time the person is looking for attention. But "take something" is presumptuous.
(8) Not texting should be a given - keep that. Phones can be completely silenced (not even vibrate mode) without powering them down, which should suffice.
(9) It seems pointless to imply criticism of standing ovations in this way - what is "extremely fine" depends on the taste and sophistication of the listener. When standing ovations develop over performances you feel are not worthy, just don't stand up (but your view of the stage may be blocked by others who disagree with you).
(10) The issue of flash photography is usually handled with an announcement made from the stage or over a PA system in any professional performance I've attended or played in. Again, some of this seems aimed at amateur and school performances, not professional concerts. Maybe you should say that explicitly.
(11) While you are correct, the issue of not applauding after the Star Spangled Banner is a train that has long left the station. There will probably never be silence after our National Anthem or any other for the rest of eternity. We just have to live with it. Don't applaud if you want to stand on ceremony (I don't applaud), but unless an announcement is made from the stage requesting silence, applause will happen. Live with it.
Your problem with the crying child is one we can probably all sympathize with - parents of very young children really should just not bring them to an indoor concert where everyone has to sit still in seats ("attend[ing] to them at all times" may be useless). If a sitter isn't available, missing the concert may be one of the trade-offs of having children in the first place. Children become old enough to control this kind of behavior in only a few years, and parents ought to decide either to find a sitter they trust or forego attending public concerts until the children are older. At an outdoor concert it's easy enough to take a screaming infant or toddler to some area more removed from the rest of the audience where the sound won't be so disruptive.
You asked for specific comments.
Karl
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2013-05-15 21:09
I recently performed the Brahms Quintet in a night club. The audience were standing or sitting, had drinks, were free to walk around. Nobody frowned at anybody for texting. The atmosphere was relaxed, but the music drew people in and there was enough concentration for people who were interested to enjoy the music. It worked surprisingly well, the performance felt "right" and was one of the most enjoyable that I have had of this piece.
I find the stuffy conventions of some classical concerts really stifling. There may be some people like bmcgar who like it that way, but it certainly puts a lot of people off, especially young people. These so called "rules" were not always so. Rossini's opera overtures were played to let the public know that the piece was going to start soon, get them to return to their place and generally settle down for the show. Mozart would not have been surprised if the audience had applauded between movements of his symphonies. People still applaud in major opera houses today at the end of an aria, even before the orchestra has finished the final chords. It's part of the buzz and enthusiasm and doesn't disturb anybody, except perhaps a handful of pretentious people who think they know better.
bmcgar- you and I will probably not agree on much and are unlikely to change each others' views on this. But here's what bothers me most about your post: Who are you to dictate when an audience should and shouldn't applaud? Who are you to say when they should give a standing ovation? I think that these people who bought the tickets should be allowed to decide that for themselves.
If you're so bothered by other people at live performances, then it's probably best for you to stay at home and listen to a CD. Just remember to switch off your phone first.
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2013-05-16 01:11
Liquorice,
Who am I to express my opinions? I'm me. Don't like what I wrote, don't follow it. It's my two cents, and I stick to it.
"Take it or leave it" is your option. Reading over my posts, I don't see anywhere that I demanded compliance.
I'm not stupid enough to think that I could "dictate" to anyone here or anywhere else anyway. Even posting here is asking for trouble anyway. To paraphrase Woodrow Call in "Lonesome Dove," people here would argue with a possum.
(KDK, did I say that a clarinet gets flatter as it warms? I can't find it in my posts).
Anyway, as I said, take it or leave it.
B.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-05-16 01:32
4th bullet under Arrive at least 30 minutes before any rehearsal...
· Your instrument may not be stabilized at its correct temperature. It makes no sense to tune a horn that is cold, then ignore it as it goes flat as it warms up.
Easy enough to fix.
Karl
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Author: Taras12
Date: 2013-05-16 02:50
Fascinating how a simple thing such as courtesy and consideration can cause such a "flap." I think this thread shows how our society has evolved into a "Me centered" culture. What ever happened to "Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you?"
Liquourice, you have a point, a nightclub, public reception or other "informal gathering" would dictate (yes, dictate) eating, drinking, quiet conversation, cell phones, and such behavior which would be inappropriate during a formal performance at Lincoln Center or the Philharmonic Hall. Mozart would probably find the performance of his "Gran Partita" acceptable in both venues. For you, go enjoy your performance at the nightclub. For "B.," enjoy getting dressed in your tux, and attending the same performance in your box seat. Personally, I'd enjoy both, and be very comfortable in my "business casual" at the nightclub and Tux at a Lincoln Center Gala. In both instances, I was brought up to behave in a manner acceptable complementary to both venues. Liqourice, I feel a bit sorry for you that you feel stifled by putting on your best formal wear and manners and adding that little extra "touch of class."
Tristan
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2013-05-16 13:35
In total agreement about cell phones and small children.
Not in total agreement about standing ovations. If you're the only one seated during a standing ovation, it conveys snobbery rather than etiquette.
In disagreement about the National Anthem. In this age of terrorism vs. patriotism, applause after the National Anthem isn't intended as poor etiquette. It is showing support and love for our country, our flag, and those who continue to fight for our freedom. I highly doubt the applause has anything to do with the actual performance quality of the anthem.
Don't applaud until the last note dies out? Have you never been to a concert where people leap to their feet in applause when a musician or ensemble simply blows everyone away? I have!
Not being snarky here but wondering, who was this written for and why?
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2013-05-16 15:04
It was written for my students because manners need to be taught and to clue them in on some conventions. They don't come naturally, even for the most well-meaning people.
Yes, I'm an old guy, and very much the traditionalist and reactionary when it comes to proper behavior. To my mind, we've become rude.
Re. standing ovations: When every performance gets a standing ovation, something else will have to be found for the next level of appreciation. Maybe slumping over the seat in front in a faint! :-)
B.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-05-16 15:41
That you meant this for your students makes a good deal of difference, at least to me. Aimed at the general public or the regular audience of adults that attends professional or amateur concerts in your locale, there is much to take issue with (as I did in some detail). But as a model or guide for students who have no extensive experience as performers or concert-goers, much more of what you wrote makes sense. You may as well expose them to the ideal. They'll eventually decide for themselves how to behave as independent adults. But instructions like the ones about arrival times and off-stage warm-up at concerts make much more sense if aimed at kids who tend to think they live in a world of Star Treck transporters where travel to rehearsals and concerts is more or less instantaneous, and who sometimes seem to think the audience is interested in hearing them show how high and loud they can play as they "warm up." Cell phone etiquette is something many under-20s take much too casually.
Still, if some are aimed at the parents of your students (standing ovations, screaming children, appropriate and inappropriate applause points), you run the risk if you publish them in your programs of alienating many of the very people without whose support your program will crash and burn before your eyes. As a music administrator (now retired), I've gotten the complaints from incensed parents who felt they were being treated at performances within the school district like children themselves and took it badly.
In that light, admonitions about photography, even flash photos, are often ignored by doting parents because they want pictures for their family albums. We used to ask parents routinely (from the stage before the concert started) not to take flash pictures except between selections (it distracts the players, it can temporarily blind any performer looking toward the camera, it distracts other audience members, etc...), and even that was often ignored because they want action pictures. You can tell 'em, but you may as well learn to live with the transgressions.
Sometimes in a school setting, noisy children (generally younger siblings of the students performing in the concert) must come with the territory. Parents want to support their kids by attending their performances (and often because they need to provide the transportation), but sitters can make being a supportive parent very expensive. Parents with small kids should know on their own to try to sit near an exit so they can take an out-of-control infant or toddler out of the room at least long enough to get them to calm down or maybe fall asleep.
BTW, you might start a campaign, if it's an important issue to you, to stop your audiences from applauding the Star Spangled Banner by explicitly asking them before you play it to withhold applause and instead observe 15 (or whatever you want to suggest) seconds of silence to show respect for the flag and for those who have defended it over the centuries. If you do a little research and include an explanation of why it was traditional not to applaud until they started playing (or more recently distorting) the anthem at public sporting events, you might be providing a little extra education as a public service.
Karl
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2013-05-16 17:21
The amount of tension that surrounds this topic keeps me out of concert halls.
There are two ways to keep an audience quiet and respectful: to demand their quietness and respect with an iron fist, or to provide them something so compelling that they'll be quiet and shush each other.
The former drives audiences away, the latter brings them in. Further, if you demand their quiet from on high, it actually PREVENTS them from shushing each other because they don't want to break these rigid protocols themselves when they shush someone.
If you focus on the negatives, the things you don't want people to do and the things that can possibly go wrong, you'll be making lists until you're blue in the face. When you've enforced compliance with the first 20 guidelines, you'll find 20 more things that bother you that were minor when the first 20 were happening. But look at what you're doing. You're in a concert hall, and you're directing all your attention to the things that can go wrong. And so is everybody else, so trained on these rules. Everyone's attention is so thoroughly focused on protocol that something as simple as a cough can piss off a thousand people.
Instead, focus on the music. It may seem counterintuitive, even dangerous at first, to have a concert that doesn't come with all these rules, but you'd be surprised at how much people will listen when you don't force them to. If everyone is focusing on the music, and the musicians are intensely involved in the music (rather than passing judgment on the audience as we so often do), you may find that a good bit of positive energy goes a lot further than you'd think.
I don't object to the particular contents of the list (though I do object to its tone). I object to the list's very existence.
The answer to rudeness is not to be rude in return, as classical institutions typically are to their audiences. This fosters more rudeness and resentment and a loss of audience. The answer is to overwhelm with politeness, setting an example. The difference between a bubbling-with-enthusiasm usher and one that looks like they're just waiting for you to make a false move so they can escort you out... which is more likely to encourage a healthy audience?
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2013-05-16 18:55
Performers need to make allowance in some situations. My husband's advanced amateur string quartets and piano quintet have performed classical music in a mental hospital's locked ward and in several nursing homes. It would seem wrong to deny these listeners music they obviously enjoy even though some people in the audiences in those venues really can't keep quiet.
The quartet never complains about individuals loudly beating time, singing along and even dancing to Mozart, and I've noticed (as page-turner and general factotum) that the listeners who can and do observe traditional concert manners don't tend to complain about the ones who get loud.
Similarly, I think we need to make allowances for age. I'd be outraged if anybody expected a quiet audience *or* respectfully prim musicians for a performance of my "Metamorphosis 2: Periodical Cicadas." I scored it for violin, marimbas, steel drums, temple blocks and wood blocks. The wood blocks are to be played by as many small children as possible, banging their blocks together as fast as they can, at random, to make the strange buzz of a brood of newl-hatched cicadas. The music is designed for a "musical instrument petting zoo" type of interactive performance in a pre-school or grammar school. I fully expect a classroom of little kids to talk and giggle throughout and if a teacher tried to make them observe "concert manners," I'd say something ... unmannerly. In private, of course. But I'd sure as hell say it.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2013-05-16 18:57)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2013-05-24 21:55
Dear bmcgar,
You are of course very welcome to express your opinions. But your Etiquette For Audiences isn't just expressing an opinion, it's telling people how they should behave, eg. "Don’t applaud until the director's baton comes down at the end of a piece"
I prefer to leave it, thank you very much.
Check out this interesting blog to see how your misguided attempt at education is perhaps part of the problem:
http://www.artsjournal.com/sandow/sandow
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2013-05-25 17:41
Liquorice,
I am curious. Liquorice and others of your opinion, where did you learn what manners you DO accept...assuming you accept any, of course?
Did they come from out of the sky? Are they consequences of "awesomeness" or "common sense"? Or were you taught them at some point? And if you were taught, weren't at least half of the things you learned of the "don't" variety?
IN MY OPINION (the caps are for you, Liquorice) the *implication* that mannerly behavior is all in the eye of the beholder and that manners apparently spring full blown into our heads instead of being taught to us is patently silly and a justification for boorishness. What is also patently silly is that, once one reaches adulthood, one has nothing more to learn about courteous behavior.
Manners is a set of standards (read "rules") agreed upon by thoughtful people who do care about treating those around them with consideration. These rules are largely TAUGHT to us ("Do this," "don't do that"). They are not hard wired in the brain, nor are they self-evident, either to the young or to adults.
All that said, few people here seem to object to WHAT I'm attempting to "teach." Rather, they don't like it that I presume to teach anyone. That hardly negates the content of what I've written, though.
(No more responses from me on this subject. It's pretty much gone as far as it can go.)
B.
Post Edited (2013-05-25 20:35)
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Author: curlyev
Date: 2013-05-25 18:37
I just think it's a bit different in each venue. The screaming kids things will never go away completely (much to our chagrin)!
One thing I do think needs to be observed is turning off the sound on cell phones, it's just rude. Maybe the screaming kids could play with the silenced cell phones, I could go for that!
I do think it is good for young performers to get some etiquette training though, I'm very glad my Middle School and High School band directors taught it to me. Of course, hardly anyone had a cell phone when I was in high school, but there were pagers...lol
Clarinet: Wooden Bundy 1950s
Mthpc: WW Co. B6 refaced by Kurtzweil
Lig: Various Rovners
Barrel/Bell: Backun
Reeds: Legere 3.75
OKC Symphonic Band (just started this summer)
*playing 22 years (with a 5 year hiatus) and counting*
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2013-05-25 20:45
bmcgar:
Much of contemporary concert etiquette stems from a concerted effort by players such as Clara Schumann who were miffed at inattentive audiences. A Cartmanesque "RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!!!" It doesn't come from common courtesy, it's something that became the convention and aesthetic of classical concerts over the past 100-150 years. Nothing intrinsic about this music "demands" quiet.
I've found the MOST quiet, respectful and attentive audiences come in situations where they're not forced to listen, but want to. If people legitimately WANT to hear something, they'll be quiet, and they'll give the stinkeye to people who make sounds. I've seen chattery rooms go silent because something exciting was going on nearby. In concert halls, the dilemma is that the quiet is forced and expected, regardless of whether the thing on stage is worth listening to.
There's a difference between manners and conventions. Manners are a matter of "this guy is doing something, these guys want to hear it, I'm going to not be an ass." Conventions are a matter of "this guy is doing something and the usher will be very cross with me if I make a sound so I'm going to shut up."
There's relaxed quiet, and there's tense pins-and-needles quiet. The former happens spontaneously and leads to fulfilling experiences. The latter is forced and makes me bolt for the nearest exit.
When people are quiet against their will, they get fidgety. Then you start making rules about candy wrappers. This makes them more fidgety. Finally, a moment of silence and they can release the tension with a cough. About 400 of them at the same time between movements. Hell, most standing ovations these days I would wager stem from people dying to move around a bit, rather than immense appreciation of the show.
Manners can be taught, or they can happen spontaneously, or more commonly it's a combination of both, and "manners" is a term that's pretty broad and open to interpretation. But at their root they're intended as a show of respect for your fellow human being. Much of concert etiquette, I feel, is a matter of people who don't like how others are behaving and desire to force their will on others.
Concert etiquette, and rules like these, I feel can rob the concertgoer of the thing MOST vital to their enjoyment, return, word of mouth, and positive sentiment: enthusiasm. They come in, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, eager to FINALLY hear what all this Mozart business is about, and they're met by a judgmental crowd of killjoys who are ready to pounce on the slightest indiscretion. It can become a battle to enjoy the program, rather than a delight.
Would Willie Nelson, in the middle of "I went to bed at 2 with a 10", stop the concert because an unruly concertgoer says "YEAH!!!" No. He'd roll with it, maybe enjoy it. And, having been to one of Willie's shows, I'll say that was a damn quiet and attentive audience. They don't WANT to get in the way of the music.
I will say that the concert hall doesn't help matters. With such densely packed seats, it's impossible for 95% of the audience to quietly excuse themselves during a marathon Bruckner symphony if they're in danger of snoring, horking up a lung, or screaming their heads off at the mind-numbing tedium of it all. You don't have that problem in a bar. Like a bar I played at a couple weeks ago, packed to the gills with a silent audience, during which 3-hour slate of performances I excused myself to the sandwich shop next door for a panini.
Refusal to amplify classical music in most settings doesn't help matters either. But you made your bed, so sleep in it. If you demand that "pure" aesthetic, understand that it comes with perils, perils of noise, and perils of losing audiences because of your obsession with the perils of noise. It is what it is. And look how happy the audiences at an Andre Rieu concert are. There's a guy who understands how to make a classical concert appeal to the masses, by way of atmosphere.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2013-05-25 20:57
At its root, it's a difference between the two situations:
1) A Dr.Who-esque man invites his friend from out of town to see something. They make their way across the city, practically flying through the streets with excitement. They approach their destination, a strange-looking building, and rush inside in the nick of time. "What is all this madness you've dragged me to?" says his friend, heart pounding. He replies, with a wry smile, "Shh shh, just watch!!"
2) A young couple stumbles into an exclusive club. Technically, they were invited, but they feel very much out of place. They have arrived exactly at the time prescribed and have donned the proper ceremonial garb. As they approach the ceremony, under the watchful eyes of all around, a rather imposing, headmistress-looking woman, akin to Miss Trunchbull. She glares menacingly at them, fingering a heavy baton. The young woman, slightly frightened for her life, whispers, whimpers even, to her fiance, "Shh shh, just watch."
Which of those situations would you rather find yourself in? Both have someone telling their companion to be quiet and watch the show. One is out of exictement, the other out of fear.
How do you treat your audience? Like companions on an adventure, or like inmates? They'll be quiet either way.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2013-05-29 15:10
As a member of the audience, there is nothing more aggravating than paying big bucks to go to a concert and having to sit in close proximity to people who talk, smack their gum, text (the light is bothersome), kick the back of your seat... As a performer, I'm flat-out embarrassed by the behavior of fellow musicians: talking to their neighbor, texting, being restless and noisy when the conductor is addressing the audience, arriving 5 minutes before we're to start performing then trying to maneuver through stands to get to your seat... It's all rude behavior and distracts from the sole purpose of being there which is to be TOTALLY IMMERSED in the experience of the music. If it needs to be spelled out so people "get it," then so be it. People need to think about someone besides themselves. Yes, a few points are a bit over the top, but it never fails that there's someone who should be reminded of these courtesies! Thanks for writing them down!
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-05-29 16:32
bmcgar wrote:
>
> It was written for my students because manners need to be
> taught and to clue them in on some conventions. They don't come
> naturally, even for the most well-meaning people.
>
Keep in mind that Bruce wrote these rules out for his school students. Much of it would be out of place if included in the printed program for a professional concert (see my own objections in one of my earlier posts). IMO as a part of the teaching process in a school situation they seem as a whole to work differently and may, hopefully, lead at least some of his students to realize that a live performance involves flesh-and-blood human beings who want to share something - players who need every ounce of their concentration to produce their best work and listeners who want to hear everything the players can offer.
There's a huge difference between listening to music on an electronic device, which can be interrupted and ignored ad libitum, and listening to it in a live performance - with the exception of "rock" concerts, which may be the only exposure of many school children to live music outside of school.
Karl
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2013-05-29 17:12
Roxann:
Have you said anything to your fellow musicians about their behavior, or kept it pent up inside?
Part of a functional system of etiquette is helping out your fellow ensemble member if you're the performer, or your fellow audience member if you're watching the show.
A simple smile accompanied by a gesture and a whisper of "hey, not cool, cut it out" is all it takes. If you just glare and wish that they'll be struck by lightning or an usher, all it does is make you bitter and let the behavior continue.
Step up. Cut it out. Be friendly about it. If they DON'T respond to repeated rounds of enthusiastic friendly, THEN you lay the smack down. If someone's texting in a movie theater, I'll buy the extra large popcorn to empty on them. They give free refills.
Also, that may be your sole purpose of being there, but keep in mind that people have all sorts of reasons to go to concerts, including the social aspect. Some aren't looking to achieve enlightenment.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2013-05-29 17:26
Also relevant to the topic, a story...
Yesterday I was waiting for the subway (1 train, 28th street), and off to the corner by the entrance, just inside the turnstiles, was a young Thai woman with a theremin. An otherworldly calm, slightly sorrowful face, staring off into the distance. Aided by a backing track, she played the Ave Maria. Over the next 5 minutes, a semicircle gradually formed, and eventually everyone in the entire station was held rapt by the performance. Aside from the incessant din of city and subway sounds, it was surprisingly silent. There was no "this is a concert, be quiet!!" There was no expectation of etiquette at all. There was just something incredible happening in that subway tunnel that everyone wanted to be a part of. The atmosphere happened completely on its own. People even waited until the end of the performance to put money in her case, after the first person to do so disrupted the theremin by her proximity.
A performance fueled by joy and wonder requires no rules of etiquette. I would even say that the level of unforced/unenforced etiquette in any performance situation is largely a reflection of the quality of the performance and the conviction of the performers. When those aspects are in place, etiquette spreads like a viral wave throughout the area. One person's intent attention is noticed by the people around, who perk up, see what the fuss is about, and respond in kind.
Before getting all huffy telling people to behave, have a good long look at what you can do with your performers to make what they're doing more thoroughly worthy of attention. The attention will follow.
I like to say that if an ensemble is phoning in a performance, I won't blame the audience for phoning in their response.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-05-29 18:27
There's a big difference between a spontaneous event that develops its own atmosphere and a formal, organized event that people attend with perhaps widely diverging expectations and tastes.
An audience member attending a planned, ticketed event can't know ahead of time what the performance quality will be and often doesn't know what to expect of the content. He or she is there because of an interest (hopefully), but once there may react with anything from pleasure and excitement to dissatisfaction and revulsion. One person's negative reaction doesn't give him a blanket right to interfere deliberately with what may be some else's pleasure and enjoyment.
If things are so bad that no one is happy with the performance, the performers will know. We've all been to concerts where the general atmosphere in the audience was restless and noisy because the performance was so inept or the music so inaccessible.
But, again, Bruce's rules are meant as guidelines for students with, perhaps, no other experience to shape their behavior. They're meant to set behavior standards for his students when performing, which is within his function as the ensemble's director, and when part of a school audience, which is legitimately part of teaching at his school. If the student performers aren't willing to deal with the rules, they will vote with their feet, and the teacher who is really overbearing in this respect will lose students. They are also, I assume, meant hopefully to be taken seriously by the parents and relatives who attend their kids' concerts generally not because of the music but to support their kids' activities. Good though their intentions are in attending, parents often forget once they're there that the kids on stage are doing their best and will be disappointed if the audience clearly isn't listening to them.
Karl
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2013-05-29 20:15
I said that I wouldn't post more on this subject, but a theory about why much rude behavior in live performances may be apropos:
Given television, radio, personal audio and video devices, and the personal computer are the sources for probably 99%+ of our engagement with music, theater, and the visual arts, I have it in mind that many people simply don't realize that performers and audience members can actually see and hear what's going on--that people often don't realize that "communication" is not uni-directional in live performance venues as it is with their iPods, and so forth.
Because of this, my guess is that there is usually no INTENTION to be rude or selfish in live performance situations. Most of it is unconscious.
Conscious or intentional rudeness, or rude behavior because of an "it's all about me" attitude, I think, is very rare.
Nothing can be done about intentional rudeness or selfishness, but education can help people think about their behavior in "live" situations. To my mind, this would take care of almost all performance etiquette gaffs.
B.
Post Edited (2013-05-29 21:06)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2013-05-29 21:57
Indeed, bmc!
And anything that can be done to break down that performer/audience wall, imho, is a good thing. It's something pervasive, especially in classical arts which mean to show you something from long, long ago. I go really far out of my way to poke holes in this wall.
It's indeed the key difference between live and recorded situations, that your performers can see you. It's something that a lot of us try to block out, both as a means of combating performance anxiety and as a consequence of "becoming one with the music". In either case, you lose the connection with the audience.
I'd even go so far as to say this isn't confined to concert situations. We're so isolated in our housing communities in our suburbs and in our strip malls that large swaths of society have been de-socialized, almost forgetting how to act with other people because we do so little of it. Television, computers, and texting exacerbate the problem. We've become conditioned to have things presented to us en masse, and our reaction has ZERO direct effect on these things. When we do interact, it's a rehearsed act... "Hey man, how are you doing? I'm great, thanks, you? Awesome, man!" regardless of whether the two of you are having the worst day of your lives. You go through life conditioned rather than genuine, and it makes it so much harder to open up, to empathize, to be human beings to your fellow human beings. I saw this happening to myself, and it scared the living hell out of me, so a couple months ago I moved out of the suburbs into one of the most dense cities in the world for precisely that reason. I'm happy to say that I'm slowly learning to be a non-******* member of society.
I would say that the answer to this isn't to impose a bunch of semi-arbitrary rules. That attacks the symptoms, and while it can be effective, it ignores the root cause. To foster a sense of etiquette, you have to have respect for your fellow human beings. And to have a respect for your fellow human beings you have to actually be around them.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-05-30 01:25
EEBaum wrote:
> Indeed, bmc!
>
> And anything that can be done to break down that
> performer/audience wall, imho, is a good thing. It's something
> pervasive, especially in classical arts which mean to show you
> something from long, long ago. I go really far out of my way
> to poke holes in this wall.
I guess it depends on what you call long, long ago. 19th century? early 20th century? Be careful - if you go much farther forward than that, you're including a lot of us in things from long, long ago.
I understand that you probably mean the bulk of the music included in most "classical" - i.e. symphonic or chamber - concert programs is more than 100 years old, primarily 18th and 19th century. Not all, of course. I sometimes hear world premiers at the Kimmel Center in Philadelphia.
Most Broadway shows are relatively recent, especially if you're using classical "standards" as a comparison - some are even quite new. What you call a performer/audience wall others would call aesthetic distance. Expectations of audience protocol isn't different in a theater from those expectations in a concert hall. Even at the jazz concerts I've attended, audience participation during a number is generally not encouraged beyond applauding solos. A lot of jazz and folk performers complain indignantly about audience talking, texting and other distracting behaviors while they are performing even in clubs and bars, where the "audience" - the patrons - may not even be there to hear them. So performers' expectation that listeners will actually listen to them is not confined to concerts of ancient music. It isn't for them a matter of avoiding contact with their audience - it's rather just the opposite. Will a poor performer find his audience wandering? Sure, and he should take that to heart and change something. But even having connected successfully with 90% of the listeners, the other 10% can, if they decide to, detract hugely from the experience shared by the rest.
>
> It's indeed the key difference between live and recorded
> situations, that your performers can see you.
And you (as the audience) can see them.
> It's something
> that a lot of us try to block out, both as a means of combating
> performance anxiety and as a consequence of "becoming one with
> the music". In either case, you lose the connection with the
> audience.
>
Certainly there are such performers, but I don't think you can make a case that this is true of most performers, especially at the professional level, which is what I think you're talking about (and which is not what Bruce is dealing with). The best performers (and the ones most appreciated by audiences) are the ones who do maintain that connection.
> I'd even go so far as to say this isn't confined to concert
> situations. We're so isolated in our housing communities....
Unfortunately, you're right, or at least I mostly agree with you about it (although I don't know that people are any more emotionally close to each other in the big cities - I'm not completely certain I understand what your move to the city was for). But concert formality long pre-dated electronic music media and the ersatz social communication you're describing. If anything, the social expectations (dress, behavior, arriving on time, etc.) at arts performing events have loosened. I can't remember the last time I wore a suit to a concert unless I was on stage playing. People now arrive after the beginning of a musical or play and are still seated by the ushers (they used to have to cool their heels in the lobby until intermission). The Academy of Music even started allowing audience members several years ago to bring food and drink into the seating areas. OMG, what are we coming to??? ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
>
> I would say that the answer to this isn't to impose a bunch of
> semi-arbitrary rules. That attacks the symptoms, and while it
> can be effective, it ignores the root cause. To foster a sense
> of etiquette, you have to have respect for your fellow human
> beings. And to have a respect for your fellow human beings you
> have to actually be around them.
>
Well, if the "rules" are only semi-arbitrary, they must have some basis in good sense. I don't think that people necessarily text these days during a concert because they don't feel a connection to the performers - more often it's because they have come to expect instant gratification (saying whatever occurs to them whenever it occurs and, they hope, getting an immediate response from the other end), think that it's modern to multi-task and don't really think about the possibility that they're distracting someone else with the light (and sometimes key clicks) from their phones. When watch alarms suddenly start chiming at 9:00 it isn't because the wearers aren't into the performance - they just forgot to turn off the alarm. Same with ringing cell phones. When audience members get into extended conversations during a performance, it's as often as not about the performance. They just can't wait until a more appropriate time to make their clever or insightful point. Some of those people who have to cross in front of me to get to their seats after the overture has finished get there when they do because they assume that an 8:00 curtain time really means 8:10 (which is increasingly true), then plan to arrive exactly at 8:10 (so they won't need to sit and be bored) and then get stuck in unexpected traffic or can't find a parking space. Then they feel entitled to be seated anyway because they paid for the ticket.
Etiquette isn't all about "rules" to somehow benefit performers. The ones that are really out of touch with their audiences wouldn't notice the distractions much anyway. It's about courtesy to fellow-travelers, the people we share space with who are entitled to at least some consideration.
And Bruce is simply trying, whether or not we agree with every point he includes, to make his students aware of the issues at a young enough age not to have become habituated to being inconsiderate.
Karl
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-05-30 01:44
Lose the cell phones people. If God had meant for you to walk down the street shouting at someone who isn't there, He'd have made you a crazy person. (Garrison Keillor)
Or at a restaurant or a concert.
From an old fuddy-duddy.
Ken Shaw
Post Edited (2013-05-30 10:30)
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Author: anonrob
Date: 2013-05-30 20:06
I have to take exception to the first point. Few if any of the professional players with whom I have worked 'routinely take two instruments.' That is really absurd, especially in a doubling environment. Taking your advice, I would need to take a small truck to get to many gigs. The national tour of Anything Goes is occupying my time for the next couple of weeks. There is no way I can afford to own, or physically carry, 2 low a baritone saxes, 2 bass clarinets to low c, 2 tenor saxes, and 2 Bb clarinets. My instruments are well maintained and played regularly. There is no reason to expect a catastrophic failure on the gig. Maybe an extra mouthpiece in the case, but again, why? Do you expect to break one?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-05-30 20:29
I actually have played professional gigs where a clarinet section mate brought backup instruments out with him - symphony jobs, though, certainly not pit work with lots of doubles.
But Bruce isn't aiming these rules at pros - he's said in an earlier post to this thread that he wrote these for his students.
Karl
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2013-05-30 20:40
When I was playing for a living, long ago in the stone age, I always carried spare instruments to performances. I never needed them...but once.
That one time was enough to justify all the trouble of carrying them all the other times.
B.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2013-05-30 21:49
I'm a bit paranoid about instrument failure before a performance so I always carry an extra A and Bb clarinet in the car for concerts only. Rehearsals? no.
It's not only good insurance for me but for my section mates, some who do not have the luxury of owning a spare set of clarinets.
I've only had to use the spare A clarinet once - when my 2nd clarinetist snapped the nylon pin for the left hand E/B key on his Buffet and needed to borrow a horn in an emergency.
...GBK
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Author: anonrob
Date: 2013-05-30 22:24
Well, I take my hat off to you and your financial planning. I really can't afford 2 of everything I own, and I honestly can't carry them all into the gig. Leaving instruments in the car in downtown St. Louis is not an option. At least I am not the bassist or percussionist.
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Author: gemini-clarinet
Date: 2013-05-31 01:26
I have a spare set which is being overhauled now. I don't plan to take them with me to performances, but I ALWAYS carry an extra mouthpiece ever since I saw an orchestra player drop his on the floor during a quick instrument change. The tip shattered and he did not have a spare.
Barry
Tucson, AZ
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-05-31 02:43
Oboes have an unfortunate habit of cracking between the two tiny trill keys at the top. John Delancie was once bitten, twice shy. In every Philadelphia Orchestra video, you'll see a scissors-top briefcase at his side with a spare oboe laid across it. His successor, Richard Woodhams, plays (or at least used to play) an oboe with a plastic top joint.
A plastic Yamaha, or a Vito or even a Bundy, plays just fine with your good mouthpiece and barrel, and no one in the audience will be able to hear the difference.
In his "What's in my bag?" video on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq9nuIZo_wE, Ricardo Morales says he always carries several mouthpieces and barrels.
Ken Shaw
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2013-05-31 04:20
Karl:
I dig, and like how you put it. Now on to a tangent...
My move to the city was largely because I saw myself rehearsing and simulating everything, including personal interactions. It leads to every bit of my life being a facade, of being "fake" (a term New Yorkers like to use to describe people from L.A. especially, and which I never really understood until I moved here). In effect, I had built up so many layers and personas that I had very little inkling of what it was like to be genuinely myself.
The city doesn't allow you to do that. People are so in your face, all the time, that it breaks down your facade, your barriers. It takes too damn much energy to be always polite out of protocol rather than genuine human interest, and too much energy to put up facades and make yourself out to be someone you're not. By the end of the day, pushing through subways and fending off street vendors and dealing with unresponsive service at restaurants, you are completely and utterly worn down. And then something magical happens: you become genuine. All barriers, defenses, down. It happens within a matter of days or weeks. Then, when you're friendly to someone, it's only out of genuine interest, and when someone's nice to you, it's because they want to be nice to you. It makes New Yorkers come off as rude, but in fact I find them the most empathetic, got-your-back people I've come across. I've been in weird moods and homeless people on trains have asked me "dude, you all right?"
Interacting with people in this manner I find a wholly fulfilling experience, and it's a bit embarrassing how foreign it was to me. How this relates to the topic is that I think this way of interacting in society is largely lost, or at least dormant. We're so conditioned to "be nice" and "say please and thank you" and "tell them how much you liked the performance" in the name of being seen as a good person. But it's not honest. It's a facade. And it's both exhausting and depersonalizing, and can make it harder to have real human connections. Especially when, with TV and computers and cars and cell phones, we avoid personal interaction and start to desensitize ourselves to it. This can and I think does spill over into etiquette pretty easily.
I read a book recently, "Home From Nowhere", which discusses the effect of city planning and zoning regulations on the cohesiveness (or, more typically, lack thereof) of communities throughout the US. It goes so far as to say that's a primary reason why people are lonely and disconnected, and I think it makes a LOT of really incredible points.
Ken:
Little would make me happier than if somehow cell phones could be uninvented. Damn, I must be getting old.
In general:
As far as etiquette, I like to think of it as both a matter of style and tact when attempting to get people to go along with it. It should add to the event, not detract from it. Something as simple as the wording of the "shut off your cell phones" announcement can change the tone for the entire evening. There are a ton of aspects to it... in general I also find positive statements (e.g. "please pay quiet attention") a lot more productive than negative ones (e.g. "don't talk during the performance") from a pseudopsychological angle. It's a gentle request for something great the audience should do (we want you here), rather than a warning of what they shouldn't do (don't ruin it). And it puts the words "quiet attention" rather than "talk during the performance" in the back of people's heads. Little mind tricks.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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