 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2013-05-28 00:46
I'm about ready to give up with cane reeds and the frustration that goes with them. What brand of synthetic reed would you recommend? Do the strengths remain consistent between cane and synthetic (If I use a 3 in cane, would I use a 3 in synthetic)? What are the drawbacks of switching to cane? Thanks for all your help!
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2013-05-28 01:44
Legere are my favorites. You'll also hear from a lot of Forestone supporters here on the BBoard.
As far as Legere traditional reeds (i.e. not Ontario or Signature), they run about 1/4 strength softer than Vandoren V12s. I played V12s until I switched to Legere in the late 90s. They do offer an exchange policy for you until you figure out what strength will work for you.
Not affiliated, just an incredibly satisfied customer,
Katrina
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-05-28 02:00
As soon as our weather in the Mid-west 'turned,' I got brand new box of Vandoren Rue Lepic ready for the humidity. You may be suffering from the weather (and relative humidity as measured more accurately in the Dew Point) changing, NOT your reeds.
There also the possibility that you are not breaking in reeds long enough. I give it about 3 days under ideal conditions and 5 day with weather fluctuations before I inscribe roman numerals on the heel of my reeds. This is BEFORE I even consider sanding, filing, trimming.....whatever...... because reeds will do what they do until they settle. If you break them out of a box and expect to play on them for more than 10 minutes max, you're doomed to failure.
That said, the Legere will keep you from being committed to a loony bin, so have them as a back-up for the worst of times. But no synthetic will sound as rich, or responsive, or clear (particularly in the altissimo) as cane.
And finally, yes, 1/4 strength less than Vandoren is a good rule of thumb.
Oh, and if you're talking bass clarinet, I've always preferred the reediness of the FibraCell (I think I get those about the same strength).
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2013-05-28 02:14
I've been breaking in my reeds as suggested by Mark Nuccio on his youtube video. I've also been trying to refurbish less-than-wonderful reeds using the ATG system...and I have had some success. I just get so discouraged because a reed will play beautifully one time then not the next.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2013-05-28 05:26
You have to get over some sort of psychological barrier when first trying out synthetic reeds for clarinet. Initially they just don't feel or sound right.
I use the Forestone synthetics with excellent results but it took me some time to get use to using them. I had to first match up the synthetic reed resistant grade with a suitable mouthpiece.
In my case it was resistant grade 3 or 3.5 with a Vandoren M13 Lyra. And I am having good results with other types of Vandoren mouthpieces but the highest resistance number I can use with Forestone is 4.
They are produced by the molding process and each is near perfect in dimension and shape, clones actually. There is no such thing as an unbalanced Forestone reed.
Forestone synthetics are suppose to be 50/50 plastic / bamboo pulp but that ratio apparently varies with the different resistant grades.
As for the altissiimo range of the clarinet using the Forestone synthetic reed , I felt that I had to approach this high range with a 'modified' embouchure but I"m not sure what exactly it was. I've always used a double embouchure when playing Clarinet anyway.
Now , after using synthetic clarinet reeds for some time now I am so pleased with the results that I'll never go back to natural cane reeds again.
Recently I played in a Gilbert & Sullivan operetta (HMS Pinafore) and no one realized I was using a synthetic reed, not even my fellow clarinetist.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-05-28 08:55
I went with Legere standard and Signature reeds and never turned back. Now I focus on music and learning technique and don't even think about reeds. The endless sanding and adjusting, and breaking in and fiddling is contrary to the process of making music in my opinion. A Legere will get you to 90% of the best cane reed without any hassle and is 30% better than most average cane reeds. You slap on the reed and play day after day, sometimes using the same two or three reeds for an entire year. It's simpler, takes up less space, less time, worry free and eventually much cheaper than cane. You can frequently find them on ebay for $15 delivered to your door within a week. The strength (available in 1/4 strengths) is roughly equivalent to cane but you may have to buy two or three (2 3/4, 3.0, 3 1/4 in my case) to ultimately find the perfect strength. Make sure to save the receipt because Legere will exchange any reed that isn't the right strength for you. In this way, if you buy 3 reeds in 3 strengths you can return the two that are not right and have 3 reeds in the correct strength that will last you an entire year for $45! Not bad ....
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-05-28 09:40
Thank you for the "heads up" on the Nuccio video. I have seen a lot of really detailed, and anal retentive rituals from top players but this one takes the cake!!! In a good way!!!
What I take out of it is that he is just play testing reeds for about week (or more) before he introduces them into his performing roster. He said quite pointedly, "the better the break-in process, the longer you can use the reed." He does the ideal, which is to play short spurts (in his case starting very short and making this progressively longer) until the reed has successfully been re-introduced to moisture (as he puts it). Also he pointedly states that he does NOT use a single reed through a two hour concert BUT will TRY to use the same reed for a FOUR CONCERT series on the same single work (for consistency of play). WOW......now that's discipline !!!!!!
If you are doing just a percentage of this routine, you should never, EVER have a problem with a real reed.
Oh, and just because that's a Rico Grand Concert sponsored video, that doesn't mean he uses Rico Grand Concert reeds
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-05-30 15:39
Paul Aviles wrote:
>
> Oh, and just because that's a Rico Grand Concert sponsored
> video, that doesn't mean he uses Rico Grand Concert reeds
>
So, what *does* he use?
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-05-30 15:42
Garth Libre wrote:
> A Legere will get you to
> 90% of the best cane reed without any hassle and is 30% better
> than most average cane reeds.
Some of us still prefer 100% of what the best cane will provide. As for the average reeds that are not as good as a Legere, I just don't play on them.
Karl
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Author: Taras12
Date: 2013-05-30 18:27
Roxann, You never said what was so frustrating about cane reeds. What is it that really bothers you?
IMHO, you can't expect a synthetic reed to sound or play like a cane reed. It's like expecting an apple to taste like an orange. Synthetic reeds may have consistancy going for them, kind of a "plain vanilla" sort of reed. They do take a bit different technique and emboucher. On the other hand, most cane reeds are playable right out of the box. HOWEVER, just like anything in life, to enjoy the full potential of this marvel of nature's engineering, you have to spend a little extra to get that little extra back.
Tristan
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2013-05-30 18:46
Taras12 wrote:
> On the other hand, most cane reeds are playable right out of the box.
If that were true then there would be basically no market for synthetic reeds. In my experience however a substantial portion of cane reeds will not play "right out of the box" and require adjustments merely to play at an "adequate" level.
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Author: William
Date: 2013-05-30 19:01
I have been playing Foresone reeds for more than than three years in all of my performance venues and consider them to be just as good as the best cane reed I've ever had. When you have found the correct fit for your mouthpiece, your sound will be full and rich in all registers. Since I switched, no one has ever said they noticed "a difference", in fact, I've been complemented for my sound by audience, conductors and collegues. My instruments are: Bb--Leblanc Concerto, A--Buffet R13, C--Buffet E-11, Eb--Yamaha 681 w/Fobes extention, Bass--Buffet Prestige low C. Mouthpieces: soprano--Chicago Kaspar #14, Eb--Selmer HS**, Bass--Grabner CX_BS. I also use Forestone reeds on my alto and tenor saxophone.
FWIW, I recently received six Harry Hartmann carbon fibre clarinet reeds that play very well--not as good as my good Forestones but better than any Vandoran cane reed I've ever sound.
Forestones let me play the music without having to worry about playing the reed. Think about it..............
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Author: Taras12
Date: 2013-05-31 02:47
Steve...When you quote someone, make sure you quote them in context.
While I said they were playable out of the box, most reeds will play out of the box. Perhaps, though, I was too abstract and you missed the point I made afterward. Let me be really clear. To get the best out of those reeds, you need to work at them, modify them, break them in...there's no such thing as a free lunch. Our culture now wants "plug and play." Synthetic reeds give them that.
Synthetic reeds have their place, but they will not replace a cane reed. They may come close to the sound of a cane reed. Legere reeds are OK, but they don't sound like my VanDoren V-12's after they've been gently adjusted and broken in.
What is very interesting in this whole discussion and other discussions on cane and synthetic reeds, is that the standard was, is and will be a CANE reed....Think about it....:-)
Tristan
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Author: William
Date: 2013-05-31 14:51
I think it is only a matter of time before someone wins a prestigius orchestral audition playing a synthetic reed--and then, the rest of us "lemmon" clarinet players will follow. The sound of a good synthetic reed is different, but I would suggest 'better' rather than inferior. It is all a process of leaning how to play the new reed. For me, it was almost instaneous. At a whim, I decided to try a recently received Forestone reed during the final rehearsal of "Peter and the Wolf" and put it on my Chicago Kaspar mouthpiece minutes before the downbeat. I was amazed at the ease I experianced chasing the cat up the tree arriving effortlessly at the high F#--which was usually much more "iffy" using my V12's. I used that reed for the ensuing performance the next day and have been using Forestone reeds ever since. For that performance, btw, even the concertmaster commented on the "good sound" of my clarinet. No one has ever said anything different and I have been playing synthetic for over four years in orchestras, concert bands and small ensembles exclusively.
Perhaps a word from a more prominent member of our BB would be good to hear....NYC premier clarinetist John Moses--care to comment on your Legere's?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-05-31 17:46
I should mention here that there are plenty of prominent German and Austrian players who DO use Legere with great success. The humidity situation can be problematic out there, but I feel there may also be a tendency for the fairly closed mouthpiece openings in Germanic countries to make cane reeds even trickier to maintain (or even break in properly).
I certainly don't want to say I find synthetic reeds unacceptable, just that if you can find better sound elsewhere, it is worth the extra work.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2013-05-31 18:03
Taras12 wrote:
> Steve...When you quote someone, make sure you quote them in
> context.
>
> While I said they were playable out of the box, most reeds will
> play out of the box. Perhaps, though, I was too abstract and
> you missed the point I made afterward. Let me be really clear.
> To get the best out of those reeds, you need to work at them,
> modify them, break them in...there's no such thing as a free
> lunch. Our culture now wants "plug and play." Synthetic reeds
> give them that.
Tristan, I understood perfectly well the idea you were trying to articulate but what you actually wrote didn't make any sense. You are trying to say that it will almost always be necessary to do some adjustments to maximize that playing quality of a particular reed, a statement that I agree with an am not disputing, but in doing so you have suggested that all cane reeds are at least functional right out of the box. It is this idea that I am disputing.
A significant fraction of reeds, as many as 50% per box in some cases, are not even functional in as-received condition. Some are warped to a degree that they cannot possibly make a seal on the mouthpiece and are completely unplayable without adjustment as a result.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-05-31 18:49
I wonder what percentage of people on this board have actually gone through the trouble of sifting through the Legere reeds to find the exact 1/4 strength that suits them best. I think the adjustment period where one accepts a slightly different feel is much shorter than the discovery period where one finds the equivalent strength of a Legere. Once found, I doubt most people wouldn't like or even prefer the Legere. I know there are some clarenetists that have become so talented that they can minutely adjust the cane to their taste. I believe that all the time involved to do that might be better spent playing the instrument. But who am I to judge? In my house we change our own oil, sharpen our own knives, grow our own herbs, bake our own bread and granola bars, grind our own coffee, cut our own hair, home school our son, lay our own floors, paint our house, bathe our cats, build our own furniture, install our own doors and build our own stereo speaker wires according to an arcane recipe. Some people would consider that a waste of time and downright wierd. With all the other things I have to do, I prefer to just order a reed and play it the day it arrives.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2013-05-31 20:54
Garth. Bathe your cats ! . What type of heavy gloves do you wear ?
Anyway, I've been playing on Forestone synthetics for some time now and may just look into obtaining a Legere to see what they are like.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-05-31 22:27
I started our youngest cat in a warm bath with gentle petting to get the fleas off. They just float off and the rest are combed out or run to her head where we mercilessly crush them with a tweezer. No gloves needed. After a while they get used to it, like my wife is getting used to altissimo note practice which I assault her with (endless d, d#, e, f - f, e, d#, d slurred and tongued).
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2013-05-31 23:22
Garth said "After a while they get used to it, like my wife is getting used to altissimo note practice which I assault her with (endless d, d#, e, f - f, e, d#, d slurred and tongued)."
Chromatic fingering I hope
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Author: Taras12
Date: 2013-06-01 00:35
Garth. What's wierd? I bake bread, make my own soap, make my own candles. I don't have cats...just 12 dachshunds, 2 African Grey Parrots, a salt water aquarium with a 2 1/2 foot Snowflake Eel....Try bathing 12 dachshunds....
Tristan
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2013-06-01 01:03
Taras, ,12 Dachshunds are a whole lot of dog.
Ever thought of adding a Basset Hound , oppsy daisy, I mean Basset Horn ?
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Author: Ed
Date: 2013-06-01 01:49
Quote:
Once found, I doubt most people wouldn't like or even prefer the Legere.
FWIW- I have tried a number of Legeres over the years in various strengths. I have also tried the Forestone reeds. I have not liked any of them.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2013-06-01 04:38
Eaglgenes said "Can synthetic reeds be modified like cane reeds? Is there any reason to do so?"
No reason to do so at all, just match the reed to a suitable mouthpiece.
Besides they're a bit expensive to play around with.
Having said that , there has been several of my earlier Forestones that I now consider a bit on the soft side. I decided to clip a tiny bit off the tip of these with a reed trimmer. Result ? Not good. And I only removed a smidgin.
I've been using Forestone now for about 18 months or so and one thing I"ve noticed is that , whilst using a Rovner ligature, moisture gradually gets under the reed.
The underside of these Synthetics are very smooth (waterproof actually), just as smooth as the Table of the mouthpiece. Once this moisture is there the reeds begins to sound a bit on the 'dead' side.
Take the reed off and wipe it dry and also the MP Table. Instant FIX
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-06-01 05:03
I've experimented with modifying Legeres with some success. I've had a couple go a bit soft after much use. I clipped these successfully. You need a very sharp clipper and you only need to clip a tiny sliver from the tip to raise them about half a strength. If the clipper isn't sharp the tip will be distorted and they won't work well. I also tried softening one by careful scraping of the shoulders, but this was not particularly effective. Once clipped they continue to perform well, but a second clipping makes them less responsive.
Tony F.
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Author: William
Date: 2013-06-01 14:29
Thanks, Barry, for the tip on wiping the reed table dry to rejuvinate the sound. I hadn't thought of that. On clipping, I've had good results with some of my softer Forestones, only taking the smallest portion off at any one procedure. Also, if the clip results in a less responsive or too stiff reed, I scrape the heart of the reed about one-half inch back from the tip, in effect, moving the heart back. Again, take only a small amount as you can always take more, but can't put it back. Scraping the shoulders had not worked for me as the Forestones are already perfectly balanced. I have also noticed, after many years of playing Forestones, that they do change with use and that a clipped reed that may not perform perfectly at first will "come around" with repeated use.
As for adjusting Legere's, I never had much success. For me, they tend to shred or crack. Besides the "thuddy" sound in the altissimo, that is another reason why I do not like them.
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2013-06-01 15:19
William, what do you use on bass clarinet? I use Legere reeds at the moment and was hoping to try out a Forestone for comparison. As far as I know, Forestone doesn't make bass clarinet reeds yet (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). Do you use tenor sax reeds?
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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